How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[mikeledes]

When you two figure it out, tell me which one of you is not the TRUE Catholic?

Una fides clearly says that passage is not referring to the confession of the sin of apostasy. He/she is not saying that it does not refer to the sin of apostasy.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[MarcoPolo]

Works is not a means of getting to heaven, it is just EVIDENCE that you are on your way there.

Do baptists teach that when we told to love our neighbor, that the act is in itself inefficacious to salvation?

 

[jcrichton]

You must not have read what I said about being a baptist and where the baptist denomination came from and how that was a result of the passing down of their teachings throughout the generations. If you are a baptist, you are following baptist tradition.

This is, from my estimation, one of the blind spots that most non-Catholics have… they chide the Church for claiming Apostolic Succession while simultaneously claiming to have their authority (in every which form it may be) rooted in the Holy Spirit; they renounce Jesus’ Word (‘I will send you another Paraclete that will abide with you and in you…’ ’ I will be with you till the end of the world…’) and accept the word of men who, by their own determination, decided to rebuild the church according to their wisdom.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hello JCrichton, sorry it took so long to get back. Lots of storms in my area and have busy . The book I got the facts on Luther is The Facts About Luther by OHare and I read the book so dont know of an internet source. The things said about him were taken from quotes of his in his writings. Mr. Luther was an Agustianian monk who was an alcoholic. He would pray his office 9 times in one day and then not pray it for the next 8 days. There would probably have not been much to do about any of his writings at the time , but the German princes saw a chance to duck the taxes imposed by the Pope at that time. By backing him they made lots of money, and as we all know money makes the world go round. In the year 397 the Catholic Church gave a definitive decison as to which books and writings should be in the bible and which should be rejected and every book in the protestant new testament today was put there by Pope Sinicus and the Catholic Bishops. Christianity was not ment to be learned from any book or 400 years of people lived and died without hope because the new test. did not exist at that time as we have it today. Jesus never said to write anything down. He founded a church and gave it a mission. That church gave us the Bible and she wrote it and has the right to say what it means. The protestant revolt was a thing that gave us all its varied forms by each one doing his own interpeting. In our own time it has given us such people as Jim Jones, Tammy Fay Baker, David Coresh, Loyd Russell, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, Jimmy Swaggert, and a host of others each claiming they have the truth as they were guided by the Holy Spirit. I`m sure it was a spirit, but doubt it was holy. Well back to Luther. In 1520 Luthers version of the Bible came out. There was at that time the catholic bible had been written in Spanish,Italian, Danish French, Norwegian,Polish, Bohemian, Hungarian, and English. There were exactly 104 editions in Latin, 38 in German, 25 in Italian, 18 in French. In all 626 editions of the bible with 198 in the language of the laity. This all before the first protestant bible was sent into the world. Luther rejected 7 books of the bible because they did not suit his doctrines. He had arrived at the princpal of private judgement. Of picking and choosing religious doctrines and whenever any book like Machbeaus taught a doctrine contarary to his taste he rejected it. 2 Mach.12- It is a holy and wholsome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins. He not only cast out some but mutilated others. For example St. Pauls we are justified by faith, he added alone to change the meaning of the verse.In his own words he said " I know very well the word alone is not in the latin or greek text, but Dr. Luther will have it so and my will is reason enough." St. Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Luther wrote under his own audaicity." St. James is an epistle of straw with no character of the Gospel in it", also his words. He spoke disparigingly about St. Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse of St. John The bible came from the Catholic Church, not the other way around. A lot of this came from Raido Replies. Some really good books are, Crossing The Tiber, Stephen Ray a Fomer baptist, Where we Got The Bible, Rt. Rev Henery Graham, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, David Currie Scriptual Roots Of Catholic Teaching, Chantal Epie, Surpiised By Truth 1&2, Patrick Madrid, Catholic For A Reason, Hahn& Supernant, Evangelical Is Not Enough & On Being Catholic, Thomas Howard, The Catholic Church And The Bible, Peter Stravankas, Cults And Characters of the Reformation & How The Ref. Happened, Hillaire Belloc The Prot. Ref. In England And Ireland, Wm. Cobbett. There are lots more out there so read and learn, it is a wonderful journey. I guess to some it is just a pethetic ranting. His will be done in all our lives. Garland

Hi, Garland!

Thanks so much for the information–I’ve downloaded it to my computer; I must make an effort to acquire/read both the ancient writings and the more modern explanations of the Faith; since I am not accustomed to reading (have kept to the Holy Bible a very few non-Biblical texts) could you recommend one or two in particular (from the above) which delve into the protestant reformation, Luther in particular?

…about the ranting–don’t forget that when Jesus spoke the Truth His own people accused Him of having a pact with Satan!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Those Bible scholars from 1500-2000 years ago practically spoke the same Greek found in the Bible, lived closer in time to the Apostolic Age, and practically belonged to the same cultural millieu as the first Christians. All of the early Church fathers for the first 500 years of the Church unanimously taught that this passage refers to baptismal regeneration and this was the unanimous orthodox teaching of Christianity until John Calvin. Martin Luther himself upheld this historic understanding of the passage. So I find it difficult to believe that holy men and women of God were somehow unable to find this “allegorical” understanding of water. Why isn’t there a single voice of dissent? How is it that Irenaeus -who knew Polycarp who in turn knew John the Apostle - got it so wrong when he lived less than a century after the Gospel of John was written? And how is it that Martin Luther missed this as well?

God Bless,
Michael

…uh… the Holy Spirit went away when the Apostles died and only resurfaced 1500 years or so later as He was summoned by the holier than the Church crowd? :whacky: :banghead:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

BTW, I just want to clarify that the only sacraments considered really necessary for salvation are the sacraments of Baptism and Confession. They are necessary because they represent the normative means chosen and established by God through which He bestows the grace of justification. We first receive the grace of justification through the sacrament of Baptism, a fact taught by Scripture, unanimously taught by Christianity for 1500 years, and even upheld by Martin Luther.

Acts 2:38

38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16

16’Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

If we fall from grace, God has established a second sacrament by which He restores that person to the state of grace, namely, the Sacrament of Confession. The same way God grants the grace of justification through the sacrament of Baptism, He restores a person to the state of grace through the sacrament of Confession. A penitent subjectively appropriates the grace God offers in the sacrament through faith and repentance. If his or her confession is not motivated by genuine faith and repentance, then he or she will not receive forgiveness of sins. A hypocritical confession is invalid. And the Catholic Encylcopedia’s article on the Sacrament establishes the following fact:

Satisfaction is not, like contrition and confession, an essential part of the sacrament, because the primary effect, i.e., remission of guilt and eternal punishment – is obtained without satisfaction

In other words, the grace of justification is obtained without satisfaction/penance. That’s why one performs penance after receiving absolution.

The other sacraments are generally for those who are already in a state of grace. They were established for our growth in grace and to strengthen and faith and love for God.

When I say the sacraments are “Christocentric”, I mean that they were established by Christ in order for us to have and strengthen our vital union with Christ. Through them we strengthen and deepen our relationship with Christ. Again, you cannot get more personal then receiving Christ Himself in the Eucharist. In the Sacrament of Confession the penitent is not boasting about any good works they have done in order to receive mercy and forgiveness. Rather, they are humbling themselves and recognizing their own sinfulness and asking for God’s forgiveness. They are turning to God and trusting in His mercy, not turning to themselves and trusting in their own works.

God Bless,
Michael

Excellent closure!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Well said. Yes, the “obedience of faith” is a key lesson of the NT. Not just how we are saved, but for what reason? To do the will of Go. Thanks for your reflections.

Vivat Jesus!

You’ve summarized my post… and brough us to that inescapable conclusion: “the Will of the Father.”

…hard as I try I cannot recall a single passage that explains what the “Will of the Father” is; there’s no magical formula… we are taught through various Scriptures about His Will… I consider the most important to be “this is my Beloved Son, to Him you listen,” since listening (Obeying) Jesus is the beginning of our Salvation–I also relate this particular passage to Jesus’ revelation that no one Knows the Father but the Son and those to whom the Son wishes to Reveal Him!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[una_fides]

I do not believe that “man has the ability to radically separate himself from God” because that would be contrary to what God promises in His Word.

To clarify, to say that man can fall from grace would be contrary to how you interpret God’s Word. There are many protestants who interpret God’s Word and his promises quite differently on this matter. Christ promises that “he who endures to the end shall be saved.”

The parable of the sower is instrumental in helping us to understand these differences between you and I. If you have ever planted seeds for any purpose (flower gardening, or producing fruit and vegetables), then you know that if you don’t plant the seeds properly, they will not produce what you WANT AND DESIRE them to produce.

• That is why Jesus said that some seed falls unpurposefully on the side of the road, and gets trampled on. It would grow and produce fruit, but the birds come and eat what they find.
• Some seed falls on rocky soil, but growing seedlings require sufficient soil for the roots to establish themselves, and to hold moisture, which is essential to its growth. These seedlings quickly withered away.
• Some seed falls among the thorns and heavy weeds, which do not allow the seedling to get sufficient nutrition or sunlight, and they get choked away.
• But some seed actually finds its way into good solid dirt, and the seedling grows quickly, and will produce 100 times its own!

Some people heard Jesus’ message, and they took it to their heart (put the seed in good soil), and they went forth producing much fruit. But there were others who took his message to heart for just a little while and then quickly gave up and so produced only a little fruit. Those people were representative of either rocky ground, or thorny bushes, or the seed that fell on the side of the road. Either the cares of this world, or the abundance of evil influences in their lives, or the lack of real interest in the message fails to produce any lasting fruit, or fruit that is poor in quality.
…
I agree with this statement insomuch as it applies to those individuals who the seed was not planted in good soil. They are the “sunshine” Christians. They have never truly allowed God’s Word to take root in their lives. They are not true Christians, but simply wolves in sheep clothing.
…
It MUST be. If it were God, and God planted the seed in good soil, IT WOULD PRODUCE GOOD FRUIT. But if man can walk away, then it is clear that the seed never got planted in good soil. The man NEVER became a Christian.

Here is just a taste of what the early Church fathers have to say on this subject:

Commentary on Mat 7:21-23 from Catena Aurea:

St. John Chrysostom.: But there are that say that they spoke this falsely, and therefore were not saved. But they would not have dared to say this to the Judge in His presence. But the very answer and question prove that it was in His presence that they spoke thus. For having been here wondered at by all for the miracles which they wrought, and there seeing themselves punished, they say in wonderment, “Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?” Others again say, that they did sinful deeds not while they thus were working miracles, but at a time later. But if this be so, that very thing which the Lord desired to prove would not be established, namely, that neither faith nor miracles avail ought where there is not a good life; as Paul also declares, “If I have faith that I may remove mountains, but have not charity, I am nothing.” [1Co_13:2] … For all are not alike fit for all things; these are of pure life, but have not so great faith; those again have the reverse. Therefore God converted these by the means of those to the shewing forth much faith; and those that had faith He called by this unspeakable gift of miracles to a better life; and to that end gave them this grace in great richness. And they say, “We have done many mighty works.” But because they were ungrateful towards those who thus honoured them, it follows rightly, “Then will I confess unto you, I never knew you.”

St. Jerome: As He had said above that those who have the robe of a good life are yet not to be received because of the impiety of their doctrines; so now on the other hand, He forbids us to participate the faith with those who while they are strong in sound doctrine, destroy it with evil works. … For Scripture uses to take words for deeds; according to which the Apostle declares, “They make confession that they know God, but in works deny him.” [Tit_1:16]
[note: this “confession” is not a “false confession” as you claim. These people who profess Christ also are “strong in sound doctrine” but through their evil works they destroy the grace they had received through their faith.]

Hilary: For obeying God’s will and not [merely] calling on His name, shall [one] find the way to the heavenly kingdom.

Pseudo-Chrys.: And what the will of God is the Lord Himself teaches, “This is,” He says, “the will of him that sent me, that every man that seeth the Son and believeth on him should have eternal life.” [Joh_6:40] The word believe has reference both to confession and conduct. He then who does not confess Christ, or does not walk according to His word, shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I could continue quoting Church fathers on this matter, but I’m not sure how much good it will do, as you don’t seem to acknowledge that those who had access to the oral teachings of Christ and the apostles have a better understanding of what Christ taught instead of those trying to figure it all out on their own 1500 years later while rebelling against everything in the Church that had been handed on from that time.

 

[una_fides]

It is “worse” than that. He doesn’t have a choice in his acceptation of salvation. It is like a man in the middle of the ocean. He has no means to get himself out of the water. He is COMPLETELY at the mercy of anyone who happens by. He cannot will someone to save him. If someone happens by, the man cannot force the stranger to help him. He is at his mercy. Either the man will save him, or he won’t.

If someone is drowning in the ocean, and another reaches out to save him, he still retains the free will to choose to not be saved or after making into the boat, he can choose to abandon ship.

When you are coming from an Arminian POV, I can certainly understand that, yes. But my Calvinist POV is in keeping with Scripture.

Your Calvinist POV is keeping with your own private interpretation of Scripture. Yes. But unfortunately, it differs from the early Church fathers. St. Augustine, whom Calvin thought agreed with his ideas of predestination stated the following:
“If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, ‘I have not received,’ because of his own free choice to do evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received” (On Rebuke and Grace, Chap. 6:9).

I’m not coming from an Armenian POV. It’s distinctly Catholic. You are creating a false dichotomy that one must either be Calvinist or Armenian.

From the Council of Trent, Canons Concerning Justification:
Canon 4. If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.
americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent6.htm#2

To understand more completely Catholic teaching on this matter and what the Church explicitly does not believe, I suggest reading the other 32 canons along with the explanation that precedes them.

If someone falls out of grace (according to Catholic dogma), then he is NOT IN CHRIST, therefore, he would be performing works OUTSIDE OF CHRIST. That is works-based, and has nothing to do with faith. If that person fell out of faith/grace, then he is simply a seed that was never planted in good soil, and is therefore a false professor.

To be a “false professor” one must have the will to do so. One cannot sincerely believe with all his heart in Christ and in his teachings, then fall away, and all that time have been a “false professor” for his profession was most sincere by God’s grace.
Also, performing good works in Christ, has everything to do with faith. A person in a state of grace must have a living faith, a faith working through charity. Without such a faith, a person is not in Christ.
Those who produce fruit as a part of the vine can also later whither and be cast off, as has been pointed out earlier on this thread as attested to by the words of Christ.
Let us remember also the fig tree:
Mat 21:19 “And seeing a fig tree by the wayside he went to it, and found nothing on it but leaves only. And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again!” And the fig tree withered at once.”
Notice that the word “again” indicates that the fig tree had produced fruit at one time. This understanding is confirmed by Mark’s gospel:
Mark 11:13-14 And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard it.

The fruits are the good works we perform in Christ through which we are justified by his grace. We work out our salvation for we have not yet attained it though in another sense we have already attained it. The words pertaining to salvation and justification have different aspects in Scripture that must be kept in mind such as past, present, and future. As such I can say that I have been justified, I am being justified, and I hope to be justified and that I have been saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved (in the future). Many passages in Scripture begin to make a lot more sense when these different aspects of time are taken into account.

 

[jcrichton]

I can only guess what your meaning is here, and I don’t think it is worth my time.

Let me help you out a bit there, J. My disagreement with you is that you did a poor job (deliberately?) in your summations, so that your posts were literally filled with myriad Scripture quotations, and I was left to wonder how you were even tying them all together in a reasoned fashion.

I don’t have time to sift through that. If you want to debate me, don’t try to throw all your “proofs” at me without any clear exegesis of them.

You have the next move. . .

…you might be right, I do tend to throw in Scriptures… but how is it my fault if anyone is not able to follow? …as the saying goes ‘I cannot fix it, if I do not know what the problem is.’

ie: there’s a person that usually throws in an expression that, I can only surmise, to his/her mindset means “Violá, I’ve won, I’ve won!” That person refuses to accept Biblical text that contradicts his/her personal belief; I feel that you employ a similar method when analyzing my response to your posts…

What you consider a poor job may simply be that I may be losing you by shifting through too many variants to demonstrate my points; once more, I offer: you may ask for clarification whenever you feel that I am not clear enough!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

No, I don’t see it. Actually, you are the one that is not seeing it. Saul had faith, but it was not “saving faith.” Saving faith must have the proper object in order to truly be saving faith. Just as Paul taught those Gentiles who had a monument to the “unknown god”, Paul did not have the known God as his object of faith. He needed to put Christ as His object. That is what happened on the road to Damascus.

Once Paul received the correct object to have faith in, he was saved. Until that time, he was murdering God’s children, and he was on the path to hell.

Yet, it is St. Paul himself that states:

Philippians 2:12b
continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

…and:

1 Corinthians 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

Hebrews 2:1
We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.

Hebrews 4:1
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Salvation goes beyond “faith!”

Even demons are used to demonstrate that it is not enough to acknowledge (have fiath/belief) Jesus Christ and His Divinity:

21They went to Capernaum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach. 22The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. 23Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, 24"What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!"
25"Be quiet!" said Jesus sternly. “Come out of him!” 26The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek. (St. Mark 1:21-26)

Further, though God Loved the world, not all were saved:

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Faith and works are inescapably merged as the means to Salvation! As St. John puts it, we cannot simply claim to be of the Light, we must walk (exist, abide) in the Light:

6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. (1 St. John 1:6-7)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Well, I never said it was. In fact, if you read all of my posts, you can’t but help come away understanding that salvation is a conglomeration of many facets all coalescing into the final accomplishment of life/living with God. There are several things that are required to salvation: regeneration, faith, conviction, confession/repentance, etc, etc.

Actually, He did tell them to have faith. With Nicodemus, He told him that the only way that he could be saved was by being reborn, a spiritual washing that would open his eyes, and bring him into the state of belief and understanding.

With the rich, young ruler, He told Him that he had to get rid of all of his possessions and to follow him. It reminds me of the story of the Frenchman, Blondine, a famous tightrope walker. One day, he was crossing the Niagara Falls, and upon completion, he bragged that he was the greatest. The crowd was enamored with him, and they shouted to him that he was the greatest.

“Do you believe that I can take a man accross this rope on my back?”, he shouted back to them.

“Yes, yes, we believe!!!” they all shouted in unison.

You, sir, climb up on my back!! he said as he pointed to a young man in the front.

The young man refused, despite the fact that he was shouting in agreement with the rest of the crowd.

Belief, true belief, only takes root when it follows the commands of Christ. The rich young ruler claimed to believe that Jesus was the “good” teacher who had all the answers. Yet when Christ told him to jump on his back, the man refused. He didn’t truly believe.

From this post I can only surmise that much of our differences on Faith is due to definition; it is Faith vs. Faith–rather than substance, the argument seems to be that of vocabulary.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

And your proof for this incredible statement is??? What?

When you make such incredible statements, you ought to be prepared to back them up.

Would you accept Scriptural proof?:

8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9As it is written:
“He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever.” (2 Corinthians 9:8-9)

9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. 10And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. (Colosians 1:9-12)

20May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Hebrew 13:20-21)

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11)

It is the Grace of God that produces the various works with which the Believers can witness to the world that we are of and in Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Sorry, but I ignored it, because it isn’t the same as what Catholics do. Baptist tradition is based in Scripture. If it isn’t, then it should be ignored. Catholic tradition is in ADDITION to Scripture, and Catholics acknowlege this.

Boy do you have a problem… of course Holy Tradition is in addition to Scriptures… do you truly believe that the Apostles lived in a vacuum? Do you truly believe that they came together, sat about waiting till the next piece of an Epistle reached them so that they could profess their Faith and preach the Gospel?

This is exactly my point when I speak about “sola Scriptura” followers (which is the claim of most non-Catholic Christian)… they make demands on proof and Scriptural tests yet they ignore Scriptural text; it is the Holy Scriptures that tells you, and everyone else that would humble themselves to listen, that there are two sources of Sacred Teachings:

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
Footnotes:
a.2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions (NIV)

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. (NASB)

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (KJV)

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (NKJV)

Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. (NJB)

There are clear demonstrations in Scriptures that the Early Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, was a Church that contained Sacred Teachings in both the Sacred Traditions (Oral) and Sacred Writings–how “sola Scriptura” supporters fail to understand this is beyond comprehension!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PEPCIS]

Una fides clearly says that passage is not referring to the confession of the sin of apostasy. He/she is not saying that it does not refer to the sin of apostasy.

God Bless,
Michael

LOL Sorry, but that’s a load of … semantics.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

You interpret the Bible to support your contentions, and dissallow any interpretation which draws from other Biblical passages that do not support your contentions. Sounds very subjective to me.

I’m not disallowing anything . . . Those passages do not conclusively

uphold the Calvinist view.

And those passages do not conclusively uphold the Catholic view. Conclusiveness is in objectivity, which you and una fides have already admitted you don’t own, because you insist that a subjective interpretation (Scripture PLUS tradition) is acceptable.

mikeledes:

And it’s not because I’m somehow unable to see it because of my Catholic perspective.

Very well. That is a statement that we BOTH should apply to each other. We don’t necessarily not see what it is that each other is saying, but we don’t accept it.

mikeledes:

Martin Luther was also familiar with those passages and believed that grave sin causes a loss of faith and salvation.

That may be true.

mikeledes:

Arminians also reject the view you uphold and they base it on Scripture.

Catholics are, by definition, Arminian. They clearly associate closely on interpretation.

John 15:2,6 are not the whole of Scripture. They exist in conjuction with the parable of the sower, which clearly shows that there is no such thing as a believer who fails to produce fruit.

mikeledes:

That is not as “clear” as you say it is. First of all, the second group are descibed as having “believed.”

Actually, in this post you claimed that each group represented believers.

But, it’s clear that the first group (the seed that falls by the wayside and is trampled and eaten by birds) NEVER even produces roots. The seed itself is God’s Word, and does not represent a believer (Mark 8:14 - “The sower soweth the word [seed].”) You are exchanging “believer” for “God’s Word.”

It is God’s Word which produces believers, but God’s Word does not produce believers in all people. The seed which falls by the wayside represents a person who has had the seed implanted, yet belief never comes.

In the second group (the seed that falls on rocky soil) shows God’s Word being implanted into a person where the seed actually takes root. This shows a person who actually engages his mind to consider the gospel message (which is the roots growing), but then he pays no more attention to it (no watering of the seed), and it quickly withers away. Again, this illustrates someone who never came to believe.

In the third group (the seed that falls among the thorns and heavy weeds), we see God’s Word being implanted into a person where the seed actually takes root. This shows a person who actually engages his mind to consider the gospel message (which is the roots growing, and the plant beginning to take shape), but it quickly gets choked out by the cares of the world. This shows a person who has made a choice between the gospel and the world, and the world was considered more important. Once again, this illustrates someone who never came to believe.

Finally, in the last group (the seed that actually finds its way into good solid dirt), we see God’s Word being implanted into a person where the seed takes root, the seedling begins to grow, and the plant thrives and produces 100 times itself. This is the only seed which can be represented as a believer, because it shows God’s Word resulting in works which produce fruit.

Out of all the groups, only one exhibits a believer.

mikeledes:

Secondly, the passage nowhere says that the second and third group were never justified.

More importantly, it nowhere states that they were justified. That’s clear because only those who are justified remain “in Christ.”

mikeledes:

Thirdly, Lutherans and Classical Arminians use this passage to clearly demonstrate that salvation can be lost.

What you mean to state is that Arminians and Catholics use this passage to demonstrate that salvation can be lost. But they are clearly wrong, because they substitute the meaning of the seed as being God’s Word for it being a believer.

mikeledes:

Now unlike the parable of the sower, John 15 clearly states the* spiritual state *of the subjects in John 15:2, 6 - they are in Me/ IN CHRIST. It is an undisputed biblical fact that anyone who is in Christ has been justified. And hence of the two passages, John 15 is the clearer one and should be the one that informs our understanding the parable of th sower.

Actually, John clearly and absolutely states that only those who ARE “in Christ” are saved. In an parallel passage to the parable of the sower, we see Christ speaking of those same individuals who have heard the Word of God (received the seed from the sower) as attempting to hang on to the tree. But then Jesus says only those who abide in Him (in other words, only those who have seed planted in good soil) are going to be fruitful. “He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” That is a believer.

He then goes on in the next verse to state that all of those individuals who had seed implanted but never produced any fruit will be hacked away from the tree and be burned. “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” That is a non-believer.

 

[mgull]

This post is to sum up (for my closure) the ongoing debate between Pepcis and the Catholics here on the forum.

1. this is what we get when someone(Pepcis) lacks an infallible interpreter of God’s Holy word, an endless string of superficial and petty arguments, mixed in with a few cheap shots here and there about questionable history. Dude you obviously are a big fan of James White, oh wait, he’s a member of the reformed baptist church and you are southern baptist. The best advice for non Catholics is humility is the ONLY answer for pride.
2. while we waste time debating, guys like Richard Dawkins, and Chris Hitchens are leading a lot of peopleb into confusion, and possibly worse HELL. So it’s time Protestants unite rather than keep dividing!
3. Pepcis says evil events happen, e.g. Inquisition because of sacred tradition???eek!
   I could make the argument that evil things happen because the false doctrine of “faith alone,” because it gives people justification to do whatever they want whenever they want.
4. Finally Pepcis, in the words of the all so great and wise Hank “the Bible answer man,” Hanegraff…“the main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things”(probably the most famous cop out of Christian apologetics). God made ONE Church dude, not 2,3,4,5,6,7, etc…1!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Originally Posted by PEPCIS
Works is not a means of getting to heaven, it is just EVIDENCE that you are on your way there.

Do baptists teach that when we told to love our neighbor, that the act is in itself inefficacious to salvation?

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/forums/images/smilies/bump.gif

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

A clear, objective, present-day example [of people who act as believers but fail to produce fruit] would be a church member who had never entrusted his life to Christ, but had followed all of the Church’s dictates regarding what are the “right” things to do to be a good Catholic. Then one day, that person would die and hear Christ’s terrible words, “depart from me you worker of evil.” This happens all the time, both in Protestant and Catholic congregations. For you to deny it is to deny reality.

Did I deny this? I don’t recall doing so.

Yes, I believe you have. You want one passage to be used to support your contention that a believer can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation. On the other hand, you want that same passage to embrace the concept that this person could be a false convert/professor. You can’t have it both ways. Either the passage is regarding one or the other, but not both.

Jesus is clearly talking about false converts in this passage we are considering (Matt.7). What we are trying to establish is whether or not there is such a thing as a believer who can fall away from salvation. This passage clearly shows that a person who fails to produce fruit that is “meet for repentance” and exhibits true saving faith, is clearly not saved (“By their fruits you shall know them”).

You wanted to say that John 15 is talking about true believers who can fall away from salvation. You said: “Yes, Jesus says that any tree that does not bear fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire and, according to John 15:2,6. that includes true believers.”

Yet the remarkable similarities of this narration from Jesus, and His parable of the Sower is striking, and shows clearly that there are many people who hear the Word, but are prevented from becoming believers. Jesus says that presenting the Word to people “in parables [is done so] that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.” (Mark 4)

That one statement is confirmation of my position that just because you have the Word sown in your heart does not assure of salvation. Jesus clearly states that “the Word that was sown in their hearts” was IMMEDIATELY taken away by the Devil (Mark 4:15). There was no possibility

mikeledes:

First of all, if you read that passage from Matthew in context, Jesus is talking about false prophets - those who enter the church with the intent to deceive. Moreover, I never said there is no such thing as a false professor and that passage can also be applied to false professors.

Actually, I stated that “John 15:2,6 are not the whole of Scripture. They exist in conjuction with the parable of the sower, which clearly shows that there is no such thing as a believer who fails to produce fruit.” To which you insisted that John 15:2,6 speaks about believers who fail to produce fruit, because it says “abide in me.” Yet Jesus states that anyone who is not abiding in Him would be cast off the tree.

The real point is that an appeal to “false professors” is not needed, because it is clear that regardless of which one we are speaking of, they are both exhibiting the same exact fruit. Which means they are both on the same pathway.

mikeledes:

What I do deny is that everyone who falls away is a false professor, a person who never really believed.

In the end, it doesn’t really matter what either of us believe. All that matters is that God’s Word states that there is no such thing as a believer who does not produce fruit. False professors do not produce fruit, and non-believers cannot produce fruit. Believers CANNOT produce no fruit.

mikeledes:

I believe Scripture teaches that among those who fall way you will find false professor and those who were once true believers.

Your appeal to false professors is a red herring. And there are no such thing as “true believers” who produce no fruit. They are “false professors.”

mikeledes:

Moreover, a false professor can never be “severed from Christ” and “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4) because they were never united to Christ or were in a state of grace to begin with.

That’s a mistake. False professors are united to the Body of Christ. They are unable to produce any fruit, and Jesus says that He will cut those unfruitful branches away (sever them from Christ) and throw them into the fire to be burned.

 

[PEPCIS]

First of all, the Church does not advocate to put Christ to shame because it does not advocate for anyone to sin.

There doesn’t need to be an open advocacy to sin. There just needs to be a promotion of the availability of falling from grace and returning to salvation - which is what the Church DOES advocate.

mikeledes:

Falling from grace is not always apostacy. That is what Luther taught, that every grave sin effects a loss of faith.

Hebrews 6 DOES NOT speak of what you refer to as Lutherian doctrine. Hebrews 6 clearly talks about apostasy. And besides, we aren’t talking about what Luther believed, but what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that if you fall from grace that you are no longer in a saving relationship to the Father and Son, and that you are in need of absolution and forgiveness. This requires a work of penance on the part of the one who has fallen from grace.