T
Tanner9188
Guest
I was just wondering; you obviously put a lot of thought into it.
- Status
M
mikeledes
Guest
1 John 2:18-19
**18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
**
This passage must first be read in context. Who are the “they” John refers to in verse 19? The “they” are the antichrists who have entered the Christian community to spread destructive heresies. If we place John’s letter within its historical context, he is addressing a form of Gnosticism known as Docetism, which denied that Jesus came in the flesh. So John is not talking about everyone who falls away , but about these false prohpets who have entered the community masquerading as true teachers of the Gospel in order to spread their heretical teachings. Later John says:
1 John 4:1
**1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. **
So the fact that these false prophets have left the Christian community exposes them for what they were, false prophets. For if they had been faithful Christian believers, they would have remained. And even if John had all apostates in view, this passage does not necessarily support the Calvinist view. Someone who ceases to believe in Christ ceases to be Christian and hence ceases to belong to the Christian community. The fact that they leave demonstrates that they are not Christian, having ceased to be so when they lost faith. One who has living faith will not depart from the Church, they will remain among those who alse have living faith. But if someone turns away from God, then they can no longer be counted among those who have living faith.
Moreover, I highly doubt that a Calvinist would argue that if a person remains a member of a congregation for their whole life, that is clear evidence that that a person is a member of the elect.
The following website addresses many of the passages Calvinist use to support their doctrine of perseverance of the saints and it addresses 1 John 2:18-19 as well. It is written by an Arminian, so Catholics should be aware that we may disagree with some of the conclusions he makes. But I think he does a pretty good job.
arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-12-examining-passages-commonly-appealed-to-by-the-advocates-of-unconditional-eternal-security/
God Bless,
Michael
**18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
**
This passage must first be read in context. Who are the “they” John refers to in verse 19? The “they” are the antichrists who have entered the Christian community to spread destructive heresies. If we place John’s letter within its historical context, he is addressing a form of Gnosticism known as Docetism, which denied that Jesus came in the flesh. So John is not talking about everyone who falls away , but about these false prohpets who have entered the community masquerading as true teachers of the Gospel in order to spread their heretical teachings. Later John says:
1 John 4:1
**1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. **
So the fact that these false prophets have left the Christian community exposes them for what they were, false prophets. For if they had been faithful Christian believers, they would have remained. And even if John had all apostates in view, this passage does not necessarily support the Calvinist view. Someone who ceases to believe in Christ ceases to be Christian and hence ceases to belong to the Christian community. The fact that they leave demonstrates that they are not Christian, having ceased to be so when they lost faith. One who has living faith will not depart from the Church, they will remain among those who alse have living faith. But if someone turns away from God, then they can no longer be counted among those who have living faith.
Moreover, I highly doubt that a Calvinist would argue that if a person remains a member of a congregation for their whole life, that is clear evidence that that a person is a member of the elect.
The following website addresses many of the passages Calvinist use to support their doctrine of perseverance of the saints and it addresses 1 John 2:18-19 as well. It is written by an Arminian, so Catholics should be aware that we may disagree with some of the conclusions he makes. But I think he does a pretty good job.
arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-12-examining-passages-commonly-appealed-to-by-the-advocates-of-unconditional-eternal-security/
God Bless,
Michael
T
Tanner9188
Guest
They are, in fact, everywhere. Some of them are here in this place. They’re in your homes, in some cases, in your schools, they’re at your work place. They ride with you on the airplane. They ride with you on the bus. They talk to you in the neighborhood. They’re involved in every aspect of human life, education, government, medicine, entertainment, religion. They’re everywhere, these antichrists.
How are we to identify them? Go down to verse 22. How do we know when we’ve run into an antichrist? Verse 22, “Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ, this is the antichrist.”
Anybody is antichrist who denies that Jesus is the Messiah. Bound up in that word Christ, of course, the Hebrew equivalent, Messiah, is that He is the anointed of God, the anointed prophet, the anointed priest who intercedes for men before God, the anointed King, the sovereign Lord. Any denial of Jesus as Lord and Redeemer, Lord and Savior constitutes an antichrist attitude.
It applies to anyone who is not of Christ; you are either with Christ, antichrist, or the worse case deluded into thinking you are with Christ.
Matthew 7:13-14 -
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
This one of the most important passages in all of Scripture to me personally, because this particular passage God used to get my attention. Here Christ is speaking to very religious people who believe they have God. Entering the kingdom is not easy; it’s like going through one of those turnstiles at a ball park, which admits one at a time and without any religious baggage, but you must first find the turnstile. It is exclusive from the start. It is intensely personal. It is not a group experience. It doesn’t happen to everybody who joins a church, or everybody who is baptized, or everybody who is in a family of quote/unquote Christians. At the end of verse 14 “there are FEW who find it”
You need to keep in mind that the contrast through this entire sermon (Sermon on the Mount) is a contrast between religion that is false and religion that is true, between worship that is false and worship that is true, between divine religion and man-made religion. And the religion that exists among the Jews at the time is not acceptable to God. In many ways, the pinnacle indictment comes in chapter 5 and verse 20, Jesus says, “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the Kingdom of heaven.”
Near the end of the sermon; the result is devastating: "Not everyone who says to Me,
Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven.............."And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’Can’t answer on behalf of a Calvinist; but as a Christian I know people who don’t attend church and are Christians and I know folks that attend all the time, but their life talk doesn’t gel with their walk. The implication above has been the same throughout human history; God chooses a remnant for Himself.
I understand the perseverance principle; I just never heard someone put it like you did.
God bless you!
T
Tanner9188
Guest
I read the article briefly; I disagree with the authors conclusions. Common sense tells us there are two types of people in the world; the saints vs the aints or the Christian vs antichrists. Plus it overlooks verse 22 that Johns makes very clear the definition of what who the antichrists are. He also overlooks the fact of predestination, the called, the elect and the sovereign authority of God in His salvation plan to make vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.
I don’t think John limits these antichrists to just apostates; but they would certainly be among the group of apostates, as well as heretics and plain unregenerate.
The bottom line is that people don’t like the idea that God is completely sovereign over His creation, including man. Many will say this makes God some type of ogre, but this is because they see through the mucky sin goggles rather than clear and godly spiritual goggles.
Any simple words study of “elect”, predestine, predestined, predetermined, beforehand etc cannot escape this fact that God does the choosing. Then, people come along and say something foolish like; why evangelize, since God has already pick whom He chose…it’s because He told us to and He uses others to reach the elect; just the way He is. Paul put it this way in Romans 9-
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
This scares the heck out of people; so they deny it, but as a Christian I find great peace and security in this precept. It use to scare me and I know many good Christian people that still can’t accept it; although it is as plain as day.
U
una_fides
Guest
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [not everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will enter into heaven?!?!]
Luk 6:46 And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?
Mat 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Mar 13:13 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved.
Source: the same Bible that says if you confess Christ with your mouth [which is a work by your definition], then you shall be saved. Obviously if both statements are true, then it’s a both-and, not an either-or. You must both confess Christ and endure to the end to be saved. All of Scripture is true. There is a danger inherent when one begins with texts that support the doctrines he already believes or already finds most convincing to the exclusion of those that seem to contradict. We must be careful to realize the teachings we received that tell us what the Scriptures mean for we then interpret them in light of those already accepted beliefs. The early Church fathers received a living Tradition from the apostles, and this Christian faith was spread all over the world. This is the Tradition that helps us understand the most accurate way to understand Scripture.
Here are some more verses that you will hopefully find helpful as well:
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering
2Th 2:13 (2:12) But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit and faith of the truth:
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the season, that it is now the hour for us to rise from sleep. For now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.
Philippians 3:11-14 If by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. Not as though I had already attained,* or were already perfect*: but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: Forgetting the things that are behind and stretching forth myself to those that are before, I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.
1 John 2:3-5 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. He who saith that he knoweth him and keepeth not his commandments is a liar: and the truth is not in him. But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected. And by this we know that we are in him.
[If you are breaking the commandments of God, then you are not in Christ. You are a withered branch that God will remove unless you repent and be rejoined to the Vine. If God is in control of your will as you say, then you would never sin, and if you sin, then you were never really converted in the first place then were you? The truth is that one is initially justified but must endure to the end in that faith, hope, and charity to be saved. If he should fall into serious sin, his former righteousness he received from Christ will not be remembered in the eyes of God but the wrath of God will abide upon him unless he repent.]
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit manifestly saith that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error and doctrines of devils.
Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. A man making void the law of Moses dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?
1 John 5:16-17 “… There is a sin which is mortal … There is a sin which is not mortal.”
U
una_fides
Guest
Here are some observations on some more passages that I made back when I was protestant and searching for what the Scriptures taught on sola fide:
Mat_5:29-30 - Why would someone need to pluck out their eyes if all they need to do is simply believe and be saved and never have to worry about sin or punishment?
Mat_18:6-10 - These verses indicate that if you sin then you will go to hell and in order to stop one’s self from sinning it is better to cut off body parts.
*Mar_9:43-50 - This passage elaborates more and clearly explains that the person will go to HELL, which is a place of “unquenchable fire,” “where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.”
Mat_6:14-15 ; Mar_11:25-26 - If you forgive you will be forgiven (How can this be that God will actually forgive your sins for forgiving others if you are only forgiven through faith?) If you do not forgive others for their sins, God will not forgive your sins (How can this be if you are forgiven once and for all by just believing once? Is this act of forgiveness also a part of one’s “faith”)
Mat_7:1-2 - If you judge others, then you will be judged (How is this possible if you can’t be judged by simply believing? If that simple belief is enough then many of these paribles are meaningless and pointless or just incorrect)
Mat_19:16-17 ; Mar_10:17-20 ; Luk_10:25-28 ; Luk_18:18-23 - When a man asked Christ what he needs to do to get to heaven, Jesus said that he needed to keep the commandments. If the man just needed to believe, why didn’t Jesus just tell him so? If the man didn’t need to keep the commandments to get into heaven, then wouldn’t Jesus have told him something that was untrue? Since Jesus can’t lie, what He said must be true…
2Ti 2:11-12 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
Mat_5:29-30 - Why would someone need to pluck out their eyes if all they need to do is simply believe and be saved and never have to worry about sin or punishment?
Mat_18:6-10 - These verses indicate that if you sin then you will go to hell and in order to stop one’s self from sinning it is better to cut off body parts.
*Mar_9:43-50 - This passage elaborates more and clearly explains that the person will go to HELL, which is a place of “unquenchable fire,” “where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.”
Mat_6:14-15 ; Mar_11:25-26 - If you forgive you will be forgiven (How can this be that God will actually forgive your sins for forgiving others if you are only forgiven through faith?) If you do not forgive others for their sins, God will not forgive your sins (How can this be if you are forgiven once and for all by just believing once? Is this act of forgiveness also a part of one’s “faith”)
Mat_7:1-2 - If you judge others, then you will be judged (How is this possible if you can’t be judged by simply believing? If that simple belief is enough then many of these paribles are meaningless and pointless or just incorrect)
Mat_19:16-17 ; Mar_10:17-20 ; Luk_10:25-28 ; Luk_18:18-23 - When a man asked Christ what he needs to do to get to heaven, Jesus said that he needed to keep the commandments. If the man just needed to believe, why didn’t Jesus just tell him so? If the man didn’t need to keep the commandments to get into heaven, then wouldn’t Jesus have told him something that was untrue? Since Jesus can’t lie, what He said must be true…
2Ti 2:11-12 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
U
una_fides
Guest
I’m sorry but I don’t recall the words “saving grace” in Scripture either… Sounds like an interpretation to me. Here’s the wording you probably like to hear: “Scripture clearly teaches” that a man can be righteous and then by his free will can choose to do evil and his former righteousness will no longer be remembered in God’s eyes unless he turns from his evil and again embraces the Good.
Ezekiel 18:24
24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Hi Tanner9188! John is not speaking about just any type of apostate. John is speaking about false prophets or teachers who have entered the Christian community with the intent of spreading false doctrine. In other words, they are not the person who joins a church simply to please his parents or his wife or someone who was raised in a particular church and attends it out of force of habit. Nor are they what Pepcis calls a “sunshine” Christian. These anti-Christs are far more dangerous because they are actively deceiving others in order to mislead them, to draw them away. One can say that they are agents of Satan. That’s why after talking about the antiChrists he later says:
1 John 2:26
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
John is writing these thing about false prophets/ anti-Christs who are tryng to deceive Christians with false teaching. He also says:
1 John 4:1
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
He also says in 2 John 7-8
7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
Deception is the business of the false prophet and that’s why Christians are contantly warned about them:
Matthew 7:15
15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Acts 20:28-29
28"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
If we read 1 John within its historical context, John is addressing a particular form of the Gnostic heresy known as Docetists:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism
Docetists believed that matter was evil and hence that God could not incarnate. Therefore, they denied that Jesus came in the flesh and He was crucified. Instead, they claimed he only had the apperance of flesh, like a phantom. Again, that’s why John emphasizes the point:
7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
So he identifies these Docetists as deceives and anti-Christs and it is about these Docetists that John says:
1 John 3:18-19
18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
These Docetists (anti-Christs) are not really Christian because they teach grossly false doctrine by denying that Christ came in the flesh and hence did not die on the Cross, denying a fundamental teaching of Christianity. By denying that Jesus incarnated and died, they denied salvation and hence denied that Jesus was the Christ in the true sense of the word. So while these Docetists may have claimed to be teaching truth, they were not teachers of truth. For if they had been teachers of truth, then they would have remained a part of the community of those who believed and taught the truth. Their departure from the community in which the true Gospel was taught only exposed them for what they were, false prophets and deceivers who were not true Christian teachers. So 1 John 2:18-19 is about false prophets/ teachers and not a general statement regarding all apostates.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Matthew 10:21
…but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
*Final *perseverance means perseverance to the end. Perseverance to the end is not something that comes from man, but from God. That’s why we call it the gift of final perseverance. This gift will only be efficacious in those whom God has predestined for glory, commonly known as the elect. That’s why, regarding John 10:28, the Catholic Haydock Commentary says the following:
Ver. 28. They shall not perish for ever: and no man shall snatch them out of my hand. He speaks of his elect, of those whom he called by a special Providence and mercy, whom he blessed with more than ordinary graces, and with the gift of final perseverance to the end in his grace. (Witham)
All those whom God has predestined to glory will receive the unmerited gift of final persverance (i.e. live and die in a state of grace). And yet we uphold that God’s plan of salvation is infallibly accomplished with the free response of those involved (i.e. free will). In other words, for Catholic, it is not Divine Sovereignty (Calvinism) verses Free Will (Arminianism). We affirm both. Where we differ from Arminians is that classical Arminians basically equate predestination with simple foreknowledge - God’s scientia visionis or “knowledge of vision.” In other words, God peers into the future and sees who will respond to His grace and who won’t and then He choses those who he forsees will believe in Him. Many Arminians even deny an individual election and teach “corporate” election. In the Catholic view, predestination is not God simply choosing those whom He foresaw. God plays a more active role. The two basic views in Catholicism are Thomism and Molinism. The difference between the two is not the same as the difference between Calvinists and Arminians. Both affirm predestination and attempt to explain the relationship between free will and efficacious grace. But unlike Arminianism, neither of them assert the notion of * absolute * free will.
Where we primarily differ from Calvinists is that we believe that all of those who are predestined will freely believe and persevere, but not all of the justified are numbered among the predestined. In other words, all of the predestined will be justified, but not all of the justified are predestined. And hence those of the genuinely justified who are not predestined will eventually fall from grace. This, we believe, is taught by Scripture and was the teaching of Christianity for 1,500 years - Augstine, whom Calvinists cite a lot also taught it - until John Calvin introduced the idea of perseverance of the saints. Martin Luther had a very high view of predestination and believed in unconditional election, but he did not believe in perseverance of the saints. He believed that the predestined will persevere, but not all of the justified are numbered among the predestined. This view is still upheld by Lutherans - at least confessional ones - today.
Continued in the next post…
M
mikeledes
Guest
That’s why as Catholics, we believe that verses like John 15:2 and John 10:28 do not contradict or overide each other. Both of these verses are affirming very important truths that can be reconciled without denying the fact, for example, that “in Me, in Him, or in Christ” uniformly means one who has been justified or that God’s plan can be frustrated. John 10:28 teaches us that those whom God has predestined are assured entrance in eternal glory, that they will infallibly be saved. Passages like John 15:2, 6 however, teaches us that not all of the justified - all of those who are in Christ - are numbered among the predestined and thus at least some of those who have been justified will fail to persevere. It is clear from Scripture that Jesus and His apostles taught the Catholic view of predestination because only the Catholic view reconciles those passages that talk about assurance of salvation for the predestined with those that talk about loss of salvation.
If Paul, for example, held the Calvinist view, then that would make him self contradictory. For example, the Calvinists hold the following theological assumptions:
1 Corinthians 8:10-11
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
The Greek word here for “perish” is the same Greek word found in John 10:28. Paul primarily uses “perish” (apollumi) as a reference to eternal destruction. Now if this refers to a false professor, then it contradicts Calvinism’s limited atonement because it specifically says that Christ died for this person. If it refers to a person who is truly saved, it contradicts Calvinism’s perseverance of the saints, since it teaches that none of the justified will ever perish. So if Paul believed in TULIP, I highly doubt he would even say this. Moreover, if its is not true and impossible for my action to cause a weaker brother to stumble and ultimately perish, then Paul was lying.
And if Paul taught perseverance of the saints and his audience also believed this, then what would be the purpose of Paul saying this? He would be contradicting himself.
But we know from other passages that the truly justified do fall from grace (John 15:2, 6, Galatians 5:4, Hebrews 6, etc.). And hence not all of the justified belong to those who are predestined to glory, though all of the predestined will be justified. And hence Paul can both affirm the assurance of final salvation of the predestined and also loss of salvation.
God Bless,
Michael
If Paul, for example, held the Calvinist view, then that would make him self contradictory. For example, the Calvinists hold the following theological assumptions:
- Christ died only for the elect
- Only the elect will be justified
- And hence all of the justified will persevere and never perish.
1 Corinthians 8:10-11
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
The Greek word here for “perish” is the same Greek word found in John 10:28. Paul primarily uses “perish” (apollumi) as a reference to eternal destruction. Now if this refers to a false professor, then it contradicts Calvinism’s limited atonement because it specifically says that Christ died for this person. If it refers to a person who is truly saved, it contradicts Calvinism’s perseverance of the saints, since it teaches that none of the justified will ever perish. So if Paul believed in TULIP, I highly doubt he would even say this. Moreover, if its is not true and impossible for my action to cause a weaker brother to stumble and ultimately perish, then Paul was lying.
And if Paul taught perseverance of the saints and his audience also believed this, then what would be the purpose of Paul saying this? He would be contradicting himself.But we know from other passages that the truly justified do fall from grace (John 15:2, 6, Galatians 5:4, Hebrews 6, etc.). And hence not all of the justified belong to those who are predestined to glory, though all of the predestined will be justified. And hence Paul can both affirm the assurance of final salvation of the predestined and also loss of salvation.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
T
Tanner9188
Guest
Hi Michael and God bless you,Hi Tanner9188! John is not speaking about just any type of apostate. John is speaking about false prophets or teachers who have entered the Christian community with the intent of spreading false doctrine. In other words, they are not the person who joins a church simply to please his parents or his wife or someone who was raised in a particular church and attends it out of force of habit. Nor are they what Pepcis calls a “sunshine” Christian. These anti-Christs are far more dangerous because they are actively deceiving others in order to mislead them, to draw them away. One can say that they are agents of Satan. That’s why after talking about the antiChrists he later says:
1 John 2:26
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
John is writing these thing about false prophets/ anti-Christs who are tryng to deceive Christians with false teaching. He also says:
1 John 4:1
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
He also says in 2 John 7-8
**7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge **Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
Deception is the business of the false prophet and that’s why Christians are contantly warned about them:
Matthew 7:15
15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Acts 20:28-29
**28"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; ** 30and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
If we read 1 John within its historical context, John is addressing a particular form of the Gnostic heresy known as Docetists:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism
Docetists believed that matter was evil and hence that God could not incarnate. Therefore, they denied that Jesus came in the flesh and He was crucified. Instead, they claimed he only had the apperance of flesh, like a phantom. Again, that’s why John emphasizes the point:
7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
So he identifies these Docetists as deceives and anti-Christs and it is about these Docetists that John says:
1 John 3:18-19
18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
These Docetists (anti-Christs) are not really Christian because they teach grossly false doctrine by denying that Christ came in the flesh and hence did not die on the Cross, denying a fundamental teaching of Christianity. By denying that Jesus incarnated and died, they denied salvation and hence denied that Jesus was the Christ in the true sense of the word. So while these Docetists may have claimed to be teaching truth, they were not teachers of truth. For if they had been teachers of truth, then they would have remained a part of the community of those who believed and taught the truth. Their departure from the community in which the true Gospel was taught only exposed them for what they were, false prophets and deceivers who were not true Christian teachers. So 1 John 2:18-19 is about false prophets/ teachers and not a general statement regarding all apostates.
God Bless,
Michael
I agree he is speaking about false teachers, but who is considered a false teacher? That is anyone who teaches or attempts to teach the gospel in an unworthy manner. Most people in this forum, including you and I, are teaching. That is point I am trying to make.
Hopefully you agree; teachers can teach one on one; like my some who is taught piano lessons or it could be a church setting…you get the picture I’m sure. I think we actually agree here more than any disagreement.
Tanner
T
Tanner9188
Guest
You are right it is not exact in the phraseology, but is certainly strongly implicit. Bless you!
Ac 15:11 -
“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
Eph 2:5 -
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:8 -
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
T
Tanner9188
Guest
“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness…” Who righteousness? The man’s own, not Gods. The passage is about obedience versus the law; God wants obedience and repentance; not works of the law.
God Bless,
Michael
Blessings to both of you!
O
onenow1
Guest
Hi !
one of the most haunting lines in the New Testament. Jesus says, ““when the Son of man returns, will he find faith on the earth?”” The Christian faith has faded away, even in lands where it was once vibrant: Egypt, Turkey, North Africa, etc. Will it endure in Western Europe, in our country? The cultivation of the faith is obviously God’s work first, but it is also ours. What are we doing to make sure that the Christian Gospel is successfully passed on to the next generation.
In luke 3: 9 John the Baptist states: even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does notbproduce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.vs 10 the crowds ask then what should we do? vs 11- 14 John is preachiong repentance, to turn around, change our ways, this is what justice demands of all. This is also what Jesus preaches is it not ?
Peace,onenow1
opcorn:
one of the most haunting lines in the New Testament. Jesus says, ““when the Son of man returns, will he find faith on the earth?”” The Christian faith has faded away, even in lands where it was once vibrant: Egypt, Turkey, North Africa, etc. Will it endure in Western Europe, in our country? The cultivation of the faith is obviously God’s work first, but it is also ours. What are we doing to make sure that the Christian Gospel is successfully passed on to the next generation.
In luke 3: 9 John the Baptist states: even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does notbproduce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.vs 10 the crowds ask then what should we do? vs 11- 14 John is preachiong repentance, to turn around, change our ways, this is what justice demands of all. This is also what Jesus preaches is it not ?
Peace,onenow1
opcorn:
U
una_fides
Guest
Tanner,
Here is some more context that should make the meaning of those verses more clear:
Ezekiel 3:18-21 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. (19) But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. (20) Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. (21) Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life."
Ezekiel 18:5-9 "If a man is righteous and does what is lawful and right-- (6) if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman in her time of impurity, (7) does not oppress any one, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, (8) does not lend at interest or take any increase, withholds his hand from iniquity, executes true justice between man and man, (9) walks in my statutes, and is careful to observe my ordinances–he is righteous, he shall surely live, says the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 18:23-32 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? (24) But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die. (25) "Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? (26) When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die for it; for the iniquity which he has committed he shall die. This righteous man then becomes a wicked man on account of his sins] (27) Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is lawful and right, he shall save his life. (28) Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (29) Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? (30) “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. (31) Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? (32) For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”
continued in next post…
U
una_fides
Guest
Ezekiel 33:8-19 If I say to the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. (9) But if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way; he shall die in his iniquity, but you will have saved your life. (10) "And you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, Thus have you said: ‘Our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?’ (11) Say to them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? (12) And you, son of man, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it when he turns from his wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness when he sins. (13) Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die. (14) Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, (15) if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. (16) None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live. (17) "Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just’; when it is their own way that is not just. (18) When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it. (19) And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it.
The context clearly demonstrates that he is not merely referring to one who is self righteous who cannot live because of his self righteousness. It says when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin that he will die. The text therefore cannot be referring to a false righteousness for to turn from that would not be to commit sin. The text also has a parallel that a wicked man *turns from *his wickedness to live. Hence the wicked person was truly wicked just as the righteous man was truly righteous before he fell away through committing grievous sins against God. The text is clear that a righteous man, who is righteous in God’s eyes, can commit sin for which he will die spiritually just as when a wicked man repents and turns to God, he shall live.
The context clearly demonstrates that he is not merely referring to one who is self righteous who cannot live because of his self righteousness. It says when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin that he will die. The text therefore cannot be referring to a false righteousness for to turn from that would not be to commit sin. The text also has a parallel that a wicked man *turns from *his wickedness to live. Hence the wicked person was truly wicked just as the righteous man was truly righteous before he fell away through committing grievous sins against God. The text is clear that a righteous man, who is righteous in God’s eyes, can commit sin for which he will die spiritually just as when a wicked man repents and turns to God, he shall live.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Hi Tanner and God Bless you too!
I think we agree that this passage is about false teachers. But the Bible reserves the designation of “false teachers” or “false prophets” for those who intentionally try to deceive others with false doctrine and hence draw them away from the truth. There is a difference between one who teaches that which is objectively true and yet is a hypocrite and a person who teaches that which is false and hence a false prophet. In Philippians 1:15-18, Paul states:
Philippians 1:15-18
15Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will;
16the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;
17the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice.
Here Paul states that there are those who preach the Gospel with sincerity of heart and there are others who preach out of selfish ambition. But in both cases, Christ is proclaimed and he rejoices. The assumption, of course, is that these hypocrtical preachers are teaching the truth. If they weren’t, then I highly doubt Paul would be rejoicing. But Paul rejoices because through their preaching of the Gospel, God can use these hypocritical teachers to bring people to the truth. The same cannot be said about false propehts and hence the warnings throughout the New Testament. So there is a difference, biblically speaking, between a hypocritical preacher/ teacher of the Gospel and a false teacher.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
In Hebrew, “righteousness” also means “righteous acts.”
studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=06666
One who practices righteousness is one who is obedient to God and this obedience is pleasing to God:
**5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, (I)does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD. **
But God also gives the following warning:
Ezekiel 33:12
**12"And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, ‘The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’ **
In other words, God will not hold the sinful acts (wickedness) of the wicked against them on the day that they turn away from their sins (wickedness). But the righteous acts of the righteous will not deliver them from God’s wrath on the day they sin. Therefore, the righteous are not to presume that their righteous acts will give them a pass from God on the day they sin.
So in Ezekiel 18:24, God is talking about the *righteous * person who practices righteousness and then turns away from *practicing righteousness *and sins.
Ezekiel 18:24
24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
This person at one point practiced righteous (i.e. his righteous deeds which he has done), but has stopped practicing righteousness and has turned to sin, dies, and hence does not persevere.
God Bless,
Michael
T
Tanner9188
Guest
**The point is it is the “mans” righteousness. I don’t think we even disagree here, but just miscommunicating each of our thoughts. Except for the very last sentence; that we disagree.
Blessings!**
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