How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[twb1621]

Continued from previous post…

Matt. 21:16 / Psalm 8:2 - out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has “perfect praise.” Hebrew - thou has “established strength.”
Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint – “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”
Luke 3:5-6 / Isaiah 40:4-5 - crooked be made straight, rough ways smooth, shall see salvation. Hebrew - omits these phrases.
Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 61:1 - and recovering of sight to the blind. Hebrew - the opening of prison to them that are bound.
Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 58:6 - to set at liberty those that are oppressed (or bruised). Hebrew - to let the oppressed go free.
John 6:31 / Psalm 78:24 - He gave them “bread” out of heaven to eat. Hebrew - gave them “food” or “grain” from heaven.
John 12:38 / Isaiah 53:1 - who has believed our “report?” Hebrew - who has believed our “message?”
John 12:40 / Isaiah 6:10 - lest they should see with eyes…turn for me to heal them. Hebrew - shut their eyes…and be healed.

Acts 2:19 / Joel 2:30 - blood and fire and “vapor” of smoke. Hebrew - blood and fire and “pillars” or “columns” of smoke.
Acts 2:25-26 / Psalm 16:8 - I saw…tongue rejoiced…dwell in hope… Hebrew - I have set…glory rejoiced…dwell in safety.
Acts 4:26 / Psalm 2:1 - the rulers “were gathered together.” Hebrew - rulers “take counsel together.”
Acts 7:14 / Gen. 46:27; Deut. 10:22 - Stephen says “seventy-five” souls went down to Egypt. Hebrew - “seventy” people went.
Acts 7:27-28 / Exodus 2:14 - uses “ruler” and judge; killed the Egyptian “yesterday.” Hebrew - uses “prince” and there is no reference to “yesterday.”
Acts 7:43 / Amos 5:26-27 - the tent of “Moloch” and star of god of Rephan. Hebrew - “your king,” shrine, and star of your god.
Acts 8:33 / Isaiah 53:7-8 - in his humiliation justice was denied him. Hebrew - by oppression…he was taken away.
Acts 13:41 / Habakkuk 1:5 - you “scoffers” and wonder and “perish.” Hebrew - you “among the nations,” and “be astounded.”
Acts 15:17 / Amos 9:12 - the rest (or remnant) of “men.” Hebrew - the remnant of “Edom.”
Rom. 2:24 / Isaiah 52:5 - the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles. Hebrew - blasphemed (there is no mention of the Gentiles).
Rom. 3:4 / Psalm 51:4 - thou mayest “prevail” (or overcome) when thou art judged. Hebrew - thou might “be clear” when thou judges.
Rom. 3:12 / Psalm 14:1,3 - they “have gone wrong.” Hebrew - they are “corrupt” or “filthy.”
Rom. 3:13 / Psalm 5:9 - they use their tongues to deceive. Hebrew - they flatter with their tongues. There is no “deceit” language.
Rom. 3:13 / Psalm 140:3 - the venom of “asps” is under their lips. Hebrew - “Adder’s” poison is under their lips.
Rom. 3:14 / Psalm 10:7 - whose mouth is full of curses and “bitterness.” Hebrew - cursing and “deceit and oppression.”
Rom. 9:17 / Exodus 9:16 - my power “in you”; my name may be “proclaimed.” Hebrew - show “thee”; may name might be “declared.”

continued at;
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html

God inspired the written word. Every Bible, regardless of the “Version” originated from one source.
**Historically, Septuagint, Vetus Itala, The Vulgates and so on contained the removed books. The Holy Bible was compiled, translated, interpreted, and canonically recognized through the assembly of the Catholic Church. Every version since Jesus established His Church contained the books He and His followers referred to in their teachings until some men with distorted faith chose to take it and remove or alter its contents to make it fit easier with what they could conceive. **

 

[twb1621]

I am wondering what the Catholic response is when Protestants site John 3:16(“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”) in support of their “saved by faith alone” belief.

Respon se to the original question of the OP;

recognize that faith without works is as is proclaimed, “dead”. Faith certainly is required for our salvation and Faith is our salvation provided we live according to the teachings of Christ. This is most certainly Biblical. Without living in humility and charity loving our brothers and sisters for the love of God, There is no salvation according to the word of God Himself. So there is no Faith VS. Works, but the union of both. As the Gospel declared, we do not want to test God. Believing we are saved while continuing in this journey without accepting any other responsibility is testing God and the passion and death He suffered.
It is not that Catholics are taught not to believe they are saved, but to recognize free will has never been removed from us and we are flawed as human beings, never free of sin. If we are reconciled with God and serious sin is absent us, yes, after the purification as God determines we are saved. Catholics believe as the scriptures proclaim, salvation does not mean there will not be a debt a person will have to assume and no one is pure to enter heaven without the cleansing but that is for the determination of God Himself. With this in mind, this is the purification BEFORE heaven, so yes we do believe in our salvation, just not the total absence of sin while in this life.

As far as works are concerned, it is not about earning salvation. It is about living as we are taught by Jesus, being disciples of Jesus which means students of Jesus, learning to follow His teachings and ways. This is our end of the covenant.

From thread, “Believing In Faith Alone”

How is it that although there are many verses in the Gospel that proclaim the necessity for works in love of each other, charity and humility, those who believe in faith alone refuse to accept these proclamations of Jesus?

In particular, I pose the following verses that have been presented to many who believe faith is salvation in itself. I suggest your deepest consideration before responding. These proclamations are very direct in meaning. Could living by the correct answer be the difference between salvation and condemnation as Christ has spoken or was He wrong? These verses are presented frequently to believers of salvation through faith alone, but there is no reasonable response at all let alone a reasonable interpretation offered. As I said, the verses are ignored completely;

***Matthew CH25 31 ***14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

Continued from previous post:

***41 ***17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Finally; For those who believe works comes automatically and are not of our free will, where does the Gospels say our free will is taken away leaving our actions or works mindless to the responsibility of the Holy Spirit? And if this were the case, why would Jesus judge us on our works of love if we have faith to begin with? Why also would works of love be acceptable yet as Jesus has proclaimed, God knows what is in the hearts of man and that which is done for reward or praise or out of pride has no value?

John 3:16
14 And just as Moses lifted up 5 the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 6 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

“…Whoever believes in Him”; Satan believes in Jesus, it is not just literally meant but rather Believes in His teachings and follows them.

 

[mikeledes]

**I read you posts, but your understanding of Scripture an d the time to correct all is wrong would take hours upon hours, which I do not have. Plus as i said before I have be bombarded. Whenever you say i have no interpretation or it is on my own; I have a rule that “I ignore the ridiculous”. Solomon was reconciled to God; yes He walked away just as David did; yet God said of David that he was a man of God’s own heart. All these true believers that sin against God; God will and does chasten them until they return to the narrow way. Furthermore, all things, including one’s sin, work together for good to those who love God. I don’t ignore your posts, but until you receive the Holy Spirit by having a true heart of repentance and pleading with God rather than following the precepts of man, then it is like trying to get through a brick wall 3 feet thick with a rubber spoon. therefore; i stick to the word of god and allow him to do the rest. t is not personal; i know the gospel, i know the plan of salvation, I know the future. Why? Because I am a true child of God, a new creation in Christ Jesus. Speaking of the future; people better get there act together because we are not far from the economic collapse spoken of in Revelation and the coming for His own before the great tribulation period starts; nothing else needs to happen.

God bless you friend!
**

You ignore the “ridiculous”? IMO, your definition of “ridiculous” is anything that you don’t have a response to. And since you don’t have a real response, you use “I’m a true child of God and you’re not.” But many claim to be a child of God and actualy live lives that reflect what they believe, and yet according to you they are not. Human beings are capable of self-deception. And I’m not talking about Catholics. I’m talking about PROTESTANTS! How are you so sure that you are not deceiving yourself?

Since you are pretty sure that you’re right, you obviously are not here to even engage in a real discussion. So speaking to you is also like speaking to a brick wall. Thankfully, there are others who are following this discussion. So when I respond to you, it will primarly be for their sake. All I know, that what you are teaching as a truth of the Gospel is an invention of a man that lived 500 years ago, namely, John Calvin. The doctrine of eternal security is not taught by Scripture and was not taught by any Christian for 1500 years and that includes Martin Luther. It is a man-made innovation based on an erroneous intepretation of Scripture passages that are taken out of context. I think Paul is pretty clear:

1 Corinthians 8:10

11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

The doctrine of eternal security makes Paul a liar. For if he taught that doctrine, he would have never said what he says in this verse. If my actions cannot cause a child of God to perish, then Paul has lied.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I wouldn’t call my self anti-Catholic, but I was pretty set in my ways… I converted this past Easter. The Holy Spirit literally got a hold of me… It was pretty darn awesome!

• Michael

Thank you for sharing this with us.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

You make claims based on an erroneous interpretation of Scripture and do not really address the Scripture passages that contradict you. If what you claim is so, then please explain to us how King Solomon, who was regenerated, TURNED AWAY from the Lord - he FORSOOK God - and fell into gross idolatry? Please explain how CHRISTISNS can desert Him who called the by grace and be severed from Christ and fall from grace (Galatians 1:5,5:4)? Please explain how someone who has believed, repented, enligtened, tasted of the heavenly gift of salvation, made PARTAKER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and sanctified by blood of Christ can fall away (Hebrews 6 & 10)? Please explain how a true Christian’s action can cause another true Christian to stumble and* perish *(1 Corinthians 8)? Please explain the following:

Romans 11:20-22

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

If all those who believe have absolute assurance of salvation, then why should they fear being cut off? Why should they fear not continuing in His goodness if they have absolute assurance of their perseverance in His goodness? Why should they fear that God may not spare them if they have absolute assurance that He has already spared them? The doctrine of eternal security makes total nonsense of this verse and a number of other verses.

The impression I get from your posts is that you do not really read our posts or consider our arguments. I apologize if this is not true, but that is the impression I get. You rarely address the verses presented to you and instead cite other verses and somehow think that your interpretation of these verses override those that contradict it.

God Bless,
Michael

The word of God is quite clear on the issue of loss of salvation, as the above passages demonstrate. Calvinists can try to ignore them or engage in semantic gymnatsics, but these passages expose the doctrine of perseverance of the saints/ eternal security, the invention of a man and not the revelation of God.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner, how much more specific do I need to get? I can go to their web sites and get their doctrinal statements if you want?

• Michael

**Why; I just told you the truth; just like Catholics, not all buy into some of the doctrines the Church teaches and just like the Church of God; some buy into you must be baptized to be saved, while others see it for what it is based on observation and experience. I guess what I am really saying is that in any given “Christian” religion; God keeps His remnant. You may think I’m totally wrong and that is okay; no need to get doctrinal statements because there will be that "elect: that will test what they are taugth against the truth of Scripture because they are actually part of the elect; whereas most will get it wrong despite all the efforts they have put into their understanding.

God bless you this nice long weekend coming up!**

 

[Tanner9188]

The word of God is quite clear on the issue of loss of salvation, as the above passages demonstrate. Calvinists can try to ignore them or engage in semantic gymnatsics, but these passages expose the doctrine of perseverance of the saints/ eternal security, the invention of a man and not the revelation of God.

God Bless,
Michael

**Hi Michael,

You just show yourself as a believer in the losing of salvation; something that is not from God. There is a great difference between be exposed to the word of God; then walking away in a different direction as compared to what God says.
What do you do with Romans 8?
"In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Come on; what do you do with that? This is the grand daddy, but there many more such passages to confirm. The only ones who are exposed and go off in a different dirctions, such as back to their old life, or a cult, or a religion - they are the unregenerate and are not the children of God; doesn’t mean that God won’t call at a later time; but whatever He predestined will be in heaven and the rest in hell.**

 

[erikd]

**Hi Michael,

You just show yourself as a believer in the losing of salvation; something that is not from God. There is a great difference between be exposed to the word of God; then walking away in a different direction as compared to what God says.
What do you do with Romans 8?
"In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.**

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Come on; what do you do with that? This is the grand daddy, but there many more such passages to confirm. The only ones who are exposed and go off in a different dirctions, such as back to their old life, or a cult, or a religion - they are the unregenerate and are not the children of God; doesn’t mean that God won’t call at a later time; but whatever He predestined will be in heaven and the rest in hell.

Tanner:

Nice to see you join us again. I love your quote but you forgot to start with verse 24:

24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? [R] +]
25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience.
Romans 8:24-25

The verse does not say “For we are saved by assurance” after all why hope when you already know for sure?

 

[Tanner9188]

You ignore the “ridiculous”? IMO, your definition of “ridiculous” is anything that you don’t have a response to. And since you don’t have a real response, you use “I’m a true child of God and you’re not.” But many claim to be a child of God and actualy live lives that reflect what they believe, and yet according to you they are not. Human beings are capable of self-deception. And I’m not talking about Catholics. I’m talking about PROTESTANTS! How are you so sure that you are not deceiving yourself?

Since you are pretty sure that you’re right, you obviously are not here to even engage in a real discussion. So speaking to you is also like speaking to a brick wall. Thankfully, there are others who are following this discussion. So when I respond to you, it will primarly be for their sake. All I know, that what you are teaching as a truth of the Gospel is an invention of a man that lived 500 years ago, namely, John Calvin. The doctrine of eternal security is not taught by Scripture and was not taught by any Christian for 1500 years and that includes Martin Luther. It is a man-made innovation based on an erroneous intepretation of Scripture passages that are taken out of context. I think Paul is pretty clear:

1 Corinthians 8:10

11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

The doctrine of eternal security makes Paul a liar. For if he taught that doctrine, he would have never said what he says in this verse. If my actions cannot cause a child of God to perish, then Paul has lied.

God Bless,
Michael

For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

A simple passage; Paul is just warning true Christians not to make someone who is exposed to the gospel to stumble; because they may walk away forever from the exposure. this was a particular problem with Jews converting to Christianity and still had the hang-up on eating pork, which was okay, but could cause this new person to stumble and never come back; although he was exposed to the truth. this shows the compassion that we need to be aware of concerning people who are just being open minded to the Scripture. There is no indication this was a true believer; otherwise they could not be ruined nor walk away. You do not have the ability to understand at this point in your life and I pray God will change that for oyu…God Bless!

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner:

Nice to see you join us again. I love your quote but you forgot to start with verse 24:

24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? [R] +]
25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience.
Romans 8:24-25

The verse does not say “For we are saved by assurance” after all why hope when you already know for sure?

**Because " we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience." knowing that the hope, which is Jesus is true to His word.

What do you do with Romans? "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

You did not answer the question.**

 

[erikd]

**Because " we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience." knowing that the hope, which is Jesus is true to His word.

What do you do with Romans? "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

You did not answer the question.**

Hi Tanner

Actually I think I did answer the question. You see, St. Paul’s message of “hope” is seen throughout the New Testament (quote above, Romans 12:12, 15:4, 15:13, 1 Co. 9:10, 13:13, 15:19, Galatians 5:5, Ephesians 1:18, Colossians 1:5, 1:27, 1 Timothy 1:1, Titus 1:2, 3:7, etc. You might be interested that there is a verse which speaks of assurance, here it is:

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Hebrews 6:11

As far as what you do with the Romans verses you put forth, I think I answered the question, because nowhere in those verses does the word “assurance” come up, only hope. Perhaps, as Hebrews 6:11 tells us, that is the assurance of hope? I quoted 13 verses, though I could have quoted more, that speak of the “hope” of salvation, the “hope” of eternal life with God. I have not seen any verses yet that speak of the assurance of salvation, and certainly those verses would be contradictory to the idea of hope. After all why hope when you already know?

Does that answer your question?

 

[Tanner9188]

I will if you answer what books where in the Bible in the year 325?

• Michael

I looked awhile, the Council of Nicene, did not mention the number of books, but my guess are 70, 72 or zero.

 

[erikd]

I looked awhile, the Council of Nicene, did not mention the number of books, but my guess are 70, 72 or zero.

Tanner:

If you look at my post 530 in this thread, and Una Fides post 555 in this thread, it will give you some idea of how the Canon of Scripture was developed by the Catholic Church for Christians all over the world. Also, you might be interested in reading about the 7 Biblical Books that were removed by the reformation in the following link:

catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp

Let us know what you think.

 

[teak421]

**Why; I just told you the truth; just like Catholics, not all buy into some of the doctrines the Church teaches and just like the Church of God; some buy into you must be baptized to be saved, while others see it for what it is based on observation and experience. I guess what I am really saying is that in any given “Christian” religion; God keeps His remnant. You may think I’m totally wrong and that is okay; no need to get doctrinal statements because there will be that "elect: that will test what they are taugth against the truth of Scripture because they are actually part of the elect; whereas most will get it wrong despite all the efforts they have put into their understanding.

God bless you this nice long weekend coming up!**

Who determines who is in the remnant? Are you in the remnant? How do you know?

cya!

• Michael

 

[teak421]

**Hi Michael,

You just show yourself as a believer in the losing of salvation; something that is not from God. There is a great difference between be exposed to the word of God; then walking away in a different direction as compared to what God says.
What do you do with Romans 8?
"In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.**

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Come on; what do you do with that? This is the grand daddy, but there many more such passages to confirm. The only ones who are exposed and go off in a different dirctions, such as back to their old life, or a cult, or a religion - they are the unregenerate and are not the children of God; doesn’t mean that God won’t call at a later time; but whatever He predestined will be in heaven and the rest in hell.

Tanner,

Those same verses you pointed out here could be used against your agruments. You did not put forth anything that supports your view. How do you know for SURE that the doctrines that you personally came up with are correct?

• Michael

 

[teak421]

I looked awhile, the Council of Nicene, did not mention the number of books, but my guess are 70, 72 or zero.

Exactly! In 325 the Bible was not compiled yet. AND, in 325 is when a COUNCIL decided to dismiss that hearsay known as Arianism, denying Jesus is God. I bring this up to refute your earlier statements that Councils confirm the Bible, how is this possible in 325 when there was no agreed upon Bible?

It was the Church that determined that Jesus was God.

• Michael

 

[una_fides]

For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

A simple passage; Paul is just warning true Christians not to make someone who is exposed to the gospel to stumble; because they may walk away forever from the exposure. this was a particular problem with Jews converting to Christianity and still had the hang-up on eating pork, which was okay, but could cause this new person to stumble and never come back; although he was exposed to the truth. this shows the compassion that we need to be aware of concerning people who are just being open minded to the Scripture. There is no indication this was a true believer; otherwise they could not be ruined nor walk away. You do not have the ability to understand at this point in your life and I pray God will change that for oyu…God Bless!

Let me guess, all us Catholics and every other protestant denomination will “have the ability to understand” once they agree with you! Who made you the final arbiter of what is true or false? Just because you interpret Scripture a certain way does not mean that you are infallibly correct. You already admitted that your interpretation could be erroneous, yet you claim that only those who agree with you can come to the right conclusions.

 

[teak421]

**Because " we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience." knowing that the hope, which is Jesus is true to His word.

What do you do with Romans? "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

You did not answer the question.**

Tanner… Are you a Calvinist?

• Michael

 

[una_fides]

What do you do with Romans 8?
"In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Come on; what do you do with that? This is the grand daddy…

If you read some orthodox Catholic commentaries, they will help:

Haydock:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son, in suffering with Christ, in following his doctrine, in imitating his life. This foreknowledge of God, according to St. Augustine,[6] is not merely a foreseeing of what men will do by the assistance and graces of God’s ordinary providence, much less a foreseeing of what they will do by their own natural strength, as the Pelagian heretics pretended: but is a foreknowledge including an act of the divine will, and of his love towards his elect servants; (as to know in the Scriptures, when applied to God, is many times the same as to approve and love) God therefore hat foreseen or predestinated, or decreed that these elect, by the help of his special graces, and by the co-operation of their free-will, should be conformable to the image of his Son, that so his Son, even as man, might be the first-born, the chief, and the head of all that shall be saved. (Witham) — God hath preordained that all his elect shall be conformable to the image of his Son. We must not here offer to dive into the secrets of God’s eternal election: only firmly believe that all our good, in time and eternity, flows originally from God’s free goodness; and all our evil from man’s free will. (Challoner)

Also notice that the Scripture text does not say that “everyone” he justified he also glorified. Only the predestined whom he justified will he glorify. There are most certainly many, however, whom he justified, who will not be glorified because they are not part of the predestined. The text nowhere states that every person justified will be glorified. That is something that you are reading into the text that no Christian before Calvin ever taught. Thus, you must either conclude that the true Church of the elect who interpret Scripture correctly died with the apostles and was resurrected by Calvin 1500+ years later or that Calvin’s new interpretation was nothing more than a heterodox invention.