How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?

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I’m not sure why you are being so cavalier about the fact that Luther and Calvin just made up a religion and that you follow that made up religion. I would think you would take this more seriously.
I know Calvin had Servetus killed and Luther was mad … bla bla bla.

I know they were right (about most stuff anyway) – doesn’t mean they were perfect.

See – I know I’m right and I know you’re wrong. You might think I’m arrogant and ignorant, and I might think the same of you … and that’s how it is (let’s at least be honest shall we).

So when you try to hit me with the rhetoric … just know I heard it all before & I don’t believe it. I’m like Luther sort of (well, I am at least slightly less mad). The RCC is great with all the great buildings and architecture and wonderful paintings – until one actually reads the bible that is.

Hey I love art & fine liturgy. If I though for a minute the RCC might be right with regards to theology – I’d be Catholic in a second.
 
I’m not sure why you are being so cavalier about the fact that Luther and Calvin just made up a religion and that you follow that made up religion. I would think you would take this more seriously.
Our friend here (Sola_Scripture) by his name alone shows that he’s not a follower of Luther or Calvin, He follows God through the study of the Scriptures.
I see nothing wrong with that. Luther, through the preaching of the scriptures, broke the chains that the Catholic church had over the people by hindering their study of the Scriptures and confining it to the priests only. He printed it and gave it to the people so they could open their eyes.
If we took the time to read about Luther (the good and bad things about him) we would see an honest christian that wanted to follow the Word of God, not the words of men.
 
I know Calvin had Servetus killed and Luther was mad … bla bla bla.

I know they were right (about most stuff anyway) – doesn’t mean they were perfect.

See – I know I’m right and I know you’re wrong. You might think I’m arrogant and ignorant, and I might think the same of you … and that’s how it is (let’s at least be honest shall we).

So when you try to hit me with the rhetoric … just know I heard it all before & I don’t believe it. I’m like Luther sort of (well, I am at least slightly less mad). The RCC is great with all the great buildings and architecture and wonderful paintings – until one actually reads the bible that is.

Hey I love art & fine liturgy. If I though for a minute the RCC might be right with regards to theology – I’d be Catholic in a second.
You say “until one actually reads the bible that is”. Instead of all the blah-blahs and the nah-nahs, lets just get down to the fundamental question, “If I thought for a minute the RCC might be right with regards to theology ==I’d be Catholic in a second”.

I will accept that offer. I do not claim to be a Catholic theologian, but I was a charismatic protestant preacher before “swimming the Tiber” and returning home. Coming to live into Catholic life and belief is not as simple as popping a few proof-texts, it takes time and honesty and prayer and the ongoing grace of God.

Please let me know an aspect of Catholic theology that is a block for your faith and let’s see if it can be explored and opened through honest enquiry, prayer and the willingness in both of us to open up to God.

But beware, on these threads honest enquiry will be met by both protestant fundies who try to block real enquiry, and alleged Catholics who want to appear superior and self-righteous. It can be a challenge at times to stay in focus and not get side-tracked by all the grandstanding.

I honor and appreciate the honesty and focus of your enquiry. May Almighty God lead you on a clear path.

Prayer and Study

The Chancellor
 
I understand the love Catholics have for their church, and will defend it at any cost, however The adherence to the Scriptures are the test by which God’s people are identified, not a name or a group (my church included).

I hear a lot about the Catholics being 2000 years old, but that doesn’t guaranty its fidelity to Christ. If we want to go by the age, then we should go back to the Israel that rejected our Lord. It sounds ridiculous, but check it out.
  1. Israel is older than the Catholic Church.
  2. They too were also founded by Jesus himself.
    John 5:46-47 - “For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?” Jesus was that cloud leading them, also the fire by night, Jesus founded Israel, just like he did, the Apostolic Church.
However, that same Church he founded turned against Him when
He came to his own. And they received Him not, because of their “traditions”, which men made under what they thought was the inspiration of God for the good of the church. They made the commandments of God (His Word, the Scriptures) void.

Jesus said:
Mark 7:13 “Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

And ultimately they crucified Him, and persecuted the “heretics” that were destroying the “tradition” by simply preaching the Word of God found in the Scriptures.

There’s a lesson to be learned there, and Jesus states it in plain simple language. God’s people are identified for their following the Word of God, not their church’s age or traditions.

Luke 8:21 - “And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the Word of God, and do it.” (not them that hear the traditions of rabbis because the church is old)

Men’s traditions, for as good as they may appear don’t have God backing their word. And adding or taking from Jesus’ Word is breaking his commandments.
Matthew 15:9 - “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Tradition is not what’s translated into what we know as Bible. A compilation of Books is what the word Bible means. But in these books is recorded the story of God dealings with humanity, and what God himself has spoken, therefore the Scriptures are the Word of God, making it the ultimate Authority in matters of Faith, salvation, and to determine who God’s people are.

The saints are “they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12

God has magnified the Scriptures above everything, even the psalmist under the inspiration of the Spirit says:

Psalm 138:2 - “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for Thou hast magnified thy Word above all thy name.

If there was no man alive and all you had was the Word of God, that alone is sufficient to understand the providences of God. No tradition added to it.
nevermind…:ouch:
this gives a whole new meaningto the word scatalogical…
 
Actually, that’s all you got. We’ve got The Cross and The Rock.
LOL!!!
That couldn’t have fitted better. Sorry, I just had to laugh at how that fell in place.
Yes, but let’s not use the Cross and the Rock to destroy, but to save.

I hope you dont mind me plagiarizing the whole stones, sticks, cross and rock thing.
 
You say “until one actually reads the bible that is”. Instead of all the blah-blahs and the nah-nahs, lets just get down to the fundamental question, “If I thought for a minute the RCC might be right with regards to theology ==I’d be Catholic in a second”.

I will accept that offer. I do not claim to be a Catholic theologian, but I was a charismatic protestant preacher before “swimming the Tiber” and returning home. Coming to live into Catholic life and belief is not as simple as popping a few proof-texts, it takes time and honesty and prayer and the ongoing grace of God.

Please let me know an aspect of Catholic theology that is a block for your faith and let’s see if it can be explored and opened through honest enquiry, prayer and the willingness in both of us to open up to God.

But beware, on these threads honest enquiry will be met by both protestant fundies who try to block real enquiry, and alleged Catholics who want to appear superior and self-righteous. It can be a challenge at times to stay in focus and not get side-tracked by all the grandstanding.

I honor and appreciate the honesty and focus of your enquiry. May Almighty God lead you on a clear path.

Prayer and Study

The Chancellor
Sweet – I love a challenge. Let’s see, where do I begin:
  1. Roman Catholic Mariology (i.e. Mary as a New Eve, Ark of the Covenant, co-redeemer, mediatrix of all graces, perpetual virgin, spouse of the Holy Spirit, veneration, and so on)
  2. Papal infallibility
  3. Arminian (semi-pelagian) soteriology
  4. a poor understanding of eschatology
  5. the innovation of Irenaeus of the concept of apostolic succession
  6. a misunderstand of the role of Peter
  7. rejection of total depravity
  8. saintly intercession and patronage
  9. an overall turning away from the Augustinian theology of predestination and grace
  10. rejection of perseverance of the saints
  11. a misunderstanding (or outright rejection) of the priesthood of all believers
OK these are just for starters. I could get into the use of icons and so forth (but that’s too easy). Let’s see how much a former charismatic preacher can teach me (I’ll be honest – I’m not to keen on the charismatic movement generally speaking; being a reformed protestant and all – but that’s another issue).

So, without further adieu – let the games begin!
 
I wanna play!:whistle: :bible1:
:twocents:
uh,…I don’t know what ya’ll r talkin bout…?
But,the heading says,HOW DO CATHOLICS EXPLAIN
1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26.
aint that right?
Sounds to me that ya’ll explain it all complicated like.
.:hmmm:
Ifn ya do’t mind,can I give it a shot?
😉
I think it sez…
There is one God(thats BIG DADDY!to you,mister!)
and there is one dude who can talk to BIG DADDY who has put His butt on the line for you!!!HARDCORE!!!And He puts in a good word for you,see?
And His name is(whispering comes I’m afraid the romans or the priests would here me…)his name is Jesus…sshhhsh. be quiet.

And Hebrews 7:26
And it’s a good thing that He’s on our side(cuz BIG DADDY is for real!)And this dude ain’t never done nuthin wrong,man.
His record is so clean man,…He is soo righteous,…it is so far beyond your wildest imagining could be about love and beauty and GRACE,man,cuz we don’t deserve it,man!
and you just cant,…you just cant fathom it!!!

🤷 I mean,…I’m just sayin…? 🤷
y’know?
 
Sweet – I love a challenge. Let’s see, where do I begin:
  1. Roman Catholic Mariology (i.e. Mary as a New Eve, Ark of the Covenant, co-redeemer, mediatrix of all graces, perpetual virgin, spouse of the Holy Spirit, veneration, and so on)
  2. Papal infallibility
  3. Arminian (semi-pelagian) soteriology
  4. a poor understanding of eschatology
  5. the innovation of Irenaeus of the concept of apostolic succession
  6. a misunderstand of the role of Peter
  7. rejection of total depravity
  8. saintly intercession and patronage
  9. an overall turning away from the Augustinian theology of predestination and grace
  10. rejection of perseverance of the saints
  11. a misunderstanding (or outright rejection) of the priesthood of all believers
OK these are just for starters. I could get into the use of icons and so forth (but that’s too easy). Let’s see how much a former charismatic preacher can teach me (I’ll be honest – I’m not to keen on the charismatic movement generally speaking; being a reformed protestant and all – but that’s another issue).

So, without further adieu – let the games begin!
You sound like a man who thinks very highly of himself and imagines he has it “all figured out”. Do you compare yourself in stature to the likes of Wesley, Arminius, Calvin etc.? How about the apostles, the popes, Aquinas, Augustine etc. ?

Why don’t you list what sola_scriptura believes in 10 bullets or less. :rolleyes:

James
 
Sola Scriptura,

Please re-read my offer to you. It does not involve “games”. It involved one aspect of Catholic that is a block to your faith and a prayerful, open examination of what God has shown us.

I think one of your Calvinist TULIP pieces might be good because it is at this level that Catholic theology and Calvinism have a basic difference.

I don’t claim to know everything and I don’t believe in rote textbook answers to theological questions.

Chancellor
 
Sola Scriptura,

Please re-read my offer to you. It does not involve “games”. It involved one aspect of Catholic that is a block to your faith and a prayerful, open examination of what God has shown us.

I think one of your Calvinist TULIP pieces might be good because it is at this level that Catholic theology and Calvinism have a basic difference.

I don’t claim to know everything and I don’t believe in rote textbook answers to theological questions.

Chancellor
Hey Chancellor:

You said:
40.png
Chancellor:
If I thought for a minute the RCC might be right with regards to theology ==I’d be Catholic in a second".

I will accept that offer. I do not claim to be a Catholic theologian, but I was a charismatic protestant preacher before “swimming the Tiber” and returning home. Coming to live into Catholic life and belief is not as simple as popping a few proof-texts, it takes time and honesty and prayer and the ongoing grace of God.
The inference was that you were willing to show me why I was wrong regarding the portions of Catholic theology I object to?

Theology is never a game to me – but at any rate; I guess you want to challenge TULIP now? That’s fine as well.

I should say that I am not a hyper-Calvinist; but I do strongly agree with the following ideas (that are very Calvinist in nature):
  1. we’re saved by grace – not of ourselves
  2. we may have absolute confidence in our election (perseverance of the saints is not exactly the same as OSAS – just as an fyi).
  3. predestination is a past unilateral act of divine providence – and it was particular in nature (not corporate)
  4. grace, insofar as the elect is concerned, is irresistible
  5. mankind is totally depraved and spiritually unable to come to God of his own volition
  6. God regenerates and gives faith – in other words God is the initiator and perfecter of our faith. He will cause His elect to persevere.
We can start with these points. Again Chancellor theology is no game to me – I take it very seriously. However, I’m also not a misguided child either. I’ve been studying theology for years now. I have a law degree & honestly I love discussing theology. On some other sites I post on I’ve done structured debates & they’re really great (they really helped me understand the big picture and how each individual doctrine relates to the whole).

I’m no John Calvin or Jacob Arminius (as some poster above asked me) – but I think I know what I’m talking about.

I know Catholics (and Arminians generally speaking) love to try & pick apart “perseverance of the saints.” If you want to start there that would be fine – I love to defend the doctrine (to me it is one of the most fundamental doctrines for any Christian to understand, so I’m always willing to share my thoughts on it).
 
Sweet – I love a challenge. Let’s see, where do I begin:
  1. Arminian (semi-pelagian) soteriology
  2. an overall turning away from the Augustinian theology of predestination and grace
  3. rejection of perseverance of the saints
First of all, Arminianism is Protestant. So you cannot be an Arminian Catholic. Second of all, Augustine did not believe nor teach perseverance of the saints, hence Calvinism departed from Augustinian predestination and grace. Third, Catholicism teaches predestination and has a far stronger view of this then Arminianism.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Just wanted to know how you can believe in the Marian dogmas of Catholicism without it interferring dramatically with the Scriptures?

1 Tim 2:
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
What Marian dogma contradicts this?
40.png
SIA:
Heb 7:
26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens
What Marian dogma contradicts this?
 
First of all, Arminianism is Protestant. So you cannot be an Arminian Catholic. Second of all, Augustine did not believe nor teach perseverance of the saints, hence Calvinism departed from Augustinian predestination and grace. Third, Catholicism teaches predestination and has a far stronger view of this then Arminianism.

God Bless,
Michael
I didn’t put perseverance together with Augustine?

Also, I disagree that Catholicism has a stronger or substantially different view on predestination when compared to Arminianism; at least popular Catholicism.

However, if I’m wrong then you’re welcome to correct me (but please cite authority because the discussion I’ve had with knowledgeable Catholics indicate that the RCC view is substantially similar to the Arminian view regarding prevenient grace and so forth).
 
And how do you justify Mary queen of Heaven by the Scriptures? And, prove to me how Mary plays any role whatsoever in our Salvation?
Using scripture, this needs some back tracking in the OT for a running start at the NT. These aren’t long to read but are packed with much needed information that answers your questions.

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Institution of the Gebirah.htm What/who is the Gebirah in the house of David

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Mary The Queen Mother of the New Davidic Kingdom.htm Mary, the Gebirah, Queen Mother in the NT

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/The%20Virgin%20Mary’s%20Role%20in%20Salvation%20History.htm Mary’s role in salvation history
 
There are four Marian dogma’s:
  1. Mary is the mother of God.
  2. Mary was conceived without sin (Immaculate Conception).
  3. Mary remained a virgin her entire life (Perpetual Virginity).
  4. Mary was assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life.
The scriptures you cite are:

For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus

It was fitting that we should have such a high priest: holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, higher than the heavens.

Please explain how, in your view, these scriptures conflict with the four Marian dogmas. Frankly, I do not see any relevance between the scriptures you reference and the Marian dogmas.
👍
 
LOL!!!
That couldn’t have fitted better. Sorry, I just had to laugh at how that fell in place.
Yes, but let’s not use the Cross and the Rock to destroy, but to save.

I hope you dont mind me plagiarizing the whole stones, sticks, cross and rock thing.
🙂 Ta muchly.

Not as long as you give me credit in some way.
 
Using scripture, this needs some back tracking in the OT for a running start at the NT. These aren’t long to read but are packed with much needed information that answers your questions.

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Institution of the Gebirah.htm What/who is the Gebirah in the house of David

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Mary The Queen Mother of the New Davidic Kingdom.htm Mary, the Gebirah, Queen Mother in the NT

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/The%20Virgin%20Mary’s%20Role%20in%20Salvation%20History.htm Mary’s role in salvation history
You don’t just assert Mary is the queen mother of Israel (in the tradition of Solomon’s mother) but rather the RCC asserts she is the “queen of heaven” – so since you enjoy looking to Old Testament typology, let me provide you with another one:

The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger (Jeremiah 7:18).

This refers to worship of the Babylonian queen of heaven.

*Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, [c] said to Jeremiah, 16 “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”

19 The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”

20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, 21 “Did not the LORD remember and think about the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your fathers, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? 22 When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became an object of cursing and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. 23 Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see.” (Jeremiah 44:15-23). *
 
You don’t just assert Mary is the queen mother of Israel (in the tradition of Solomon’s mother) but rather the RCC asserts she is the “queen of heaven” – so since you enjoy looking to Old Testament typology, let me provide you with another one:

The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger (Jeremiah 7:18).

This refers to worship of the Babylonian queen of heaven.

Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, [c] said to Jeremiah, 16 “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”

19 The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”


*20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, 21 “Did not the LORD remember and think about the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your fathers, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? 22 When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became an object of cursing and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. 23 Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see.” (Jeremiah 44:15-23). *
Get a grip, sola!

Jesus is the King of Heaven and earth. His mother would be the gebirah. She is, by her motherhood of Jesus, therefore, the Queen of His Kingdom: Heaven.

Mary is human. She is not a goddess.

Nobody makes “cakes” or “pours out drink offerings” to her. Our Lady has nothing whatever to do with a non-existent pagan “goddess.”

This is NOT a subtle point.
 
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