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sola_scriptura
Guest
It is you who needs to get a grip. The typology is obvious (and certainly less attenuated to the erroneous typologies of the RCC, like Mary as Ark of the Covenant).
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mercygate
Guest
What typology is “obvious”? That the Queen of Heaven in Jeremiah is Our Lady? You seem to need anything Catholic to be wrong, even if it isn’t.
How can Mary NOT be the “Ark of the Covenant”?
What was in the Ark:
The word of God in the tables of the law.
Jesus is the Word made flesh.
Aaron’s rod that budded in affirmation of his priesthood.
Jesus is our great high priest.
The last of the manna.
Jesus is the bread of life.
Even a Protestant should no problem whatever with that. I thought that typology was quite poignant when I was a Protestant.
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mikeledes
Guest
First of all, predestination in Catholicism is not pure foreknowledge of man’s choices. In Catholic theology, God’s role is not limited to rubber stamping man’s choices. Moreover, while we share the belief in prevenient grace - also called sufficient or antecdent grace - with Arminianism, we differ on what makes that grace infallibly efficacious. There are two theological explanations in Catholicism (Thomist and Molinist) regarding this issue. However, they both agree that the efficacy of grace ultimately depends on God. In Arminianism, the efficacy of grace basically depends on man’s choice alone, thus making God dependant on the will of man.
Here are a couple of links on Catholic predestination:
thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php
thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm
God Bless,
Michael
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steve_b
Guest
What about Rev 11:16… Rev 12? Who is this woman who appears “in heaven” who John says gave birth to the one whose throne is in heaven (Jesus). Satan makes war against who? All her other children, those who follow her son Jesus Christ.
Are you going to say that is NOT Mary?
Re: Patristic commentary, doing a search I found
Pseudo – Melito
If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: “Be it done according to your will” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2-17 A.D. 300]).
Timothy of Jerusalem
Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption (Homily on Simeon and Anna A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian
The Lord said to his Mother, “Let your heart rejoice and be glad. For every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens”. . . And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise (The Dormition of Mary A.D. 400]).
Gregory of Tours
[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones. . . (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 A.D. 575]).
Theoteknos of Livias
It was fitting … that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory … should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God (*Homily on the Assumption *[ca. **A.D. 600]).
Modestus of Jerusalem
As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him (*Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae *[ante **A.D. 634]).
Germanus of Constantinople
You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life (Sermon I A.D. 683]).
John Damascene
It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God (Dormition of Mary A.D. 697])
Gregorian Sacramentary
Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself (Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda [ante **A.D. 795]).
Taken from freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2062752/posts
Also
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0105sbs.asp
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steve_b
Guest
What’s all this got to do with what I posted?
Mary is the mother of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is the one who sits on His throne in heaven, [Rev 12:5] And in Jewish terms, Mary is always the gebirah, His queen mother. And where does the queen mother sit?
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TriuneUnity
Guest
Hardly a patristic source. The book actually dates from the 5th century, and Ps. Melito in his preface explains that he has composed this narrative in response to an earlier narrative written by a certain Leucius. This narrative was riddled with heresies, and he has composed his own narrative in order to present the truth about the end of Mary’s life in an account that is free from the “lies” and “heresies” of Leucius’ version. Thus this narrative has adjusted these traditions so that the end of Mary’s life could be claimed for the “orthodox” faith. Hardly reliable as apostolic tradition when the only sources Melito has access to are heretics!
I haven’t checked out the earlier ones you’ve posted here but aside from two, all are from the 6th century or later which is what I stated I was able to find. Six hundred years later is no more apostolic tradition than any other heresy which developed in those years.
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steve_b
Guest
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steve_b
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What heresy?
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TriuneUnity
Guest
Gnosticism, Arianism, Manicheism, Docetism, Nestorianism, etc.
All of those guys claimed their teachings were apostolic, too.
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Patrick_Murebil
Guest
I’m curious as to who you think the “woman” is in Rev. 11 and 12 that steve b asked you above.
Thanks!
God bless all!!!
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steve_b
Guest
how about
St. Epiphanius of Salamis( ~390 a.d.). he writes:Say she died a natural death. In that case she fell asleep in glory, and departed in purity and received the crown of her virginity. Or say she was slain with the sword according to Simeon’s prophecy. There her glory is with the martyrs, and she through WHOM THE DIVINE LIGHT SHONE UPON THE WORLD IS IN THE PLACE OF BLISS WITH HER SACRED BODY. Or say she left this world without dying for God can do what He wills. Then she was simply transferred to eternal glory. (Haer. lxxix, 11).
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Arglaze
Guest
Who wrote those ‘Marian dogmas’? Jesus? Peter? Paul?
- Mary is the mother of God? Is that even a serious statement? Then that makes Abraham, Rahab the whore, David, and all of them God’s grandfathers and grandmothers? Oh!! I see, its trying to say that because the Holy Spirit used Mary’s womb to hide Jesus Divinity in mortality, that makes her the mother of God, even though its not mentioned in scripture that Jesus called Mary ‘Mother’. Well, fact is, Jesus existed before Mary was even made.
- Mary was conceived without sin (Immaculate Conception)? Where in the Bible is that? That’s a direct contradiction to
“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” Galatians 3:22 &
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23 - Mary remained a virgin her entire life (Perpetual Virginity)? Where in the Bible is that? Whoever wrote that must have been spying on Mary and Joseph every night. Common people, you don’t get married so you can have a virgin wife, you marry to form a family. Even the people that saw Jesus knew that he had brothers and sisters.
“Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” Matthew 13:55-56 - Mary was assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life? Where is that in the Bible? I think the correct statement was: “we assume Mary went to heaven at the end of her earthly life.”
Seriously now, Mary is no where mentioned after Jesus gave John to care for Mary, who even at his moment of death called her ‘woman’, not ‘mother’, and at the time that she was praying with Jesus’ brothers and sisters and his disciples later in Acts I think.
Because Jesus has only 1 Father and no Mother, he’s eternal, Mary isn’t.
Jesus is pre-historic, Mary isn’t.
Jesus is pre-creation, Mary isn’t.
Psalm 119:105 “Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” not the ‘Marian dogma’ which are words of uninspired men, whoever they are.
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Peter_J
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SenorSalsa
Guest
I will state once again, since all your points have been stated before
Elizabeth, FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT(as in, the Holy Spirt third person of the Trinity, God, came into her and made her speak) cried out “And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43
and it was an Angel of God(i.e. God’s messenger, who having entered the Beatific Vision, cannot sin and therefore cannot say anything that is not true) tells Joseph "“Rise, take the child and his mother, flee to Egypt” Matthew 2:13.
You could of course claim that calling Mary his mother was just a a formality, but the Angel could have easily said take the child and you wife, or even take Mary and Jesus.
in response to your first question, it is the Holy Spirit that wrote those, and all, dogmas of the Catholic Faith
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mikeledes
Guest
Psalm 22:9
9Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity and hence God. Mary is the Mother of God. In other words, when she gave birth, she gave birth to God the Son. It’s very simple. In fact, the title “Mother of God” is meant to affirm the Hypostatic Union, which was challenged by the Nestorian heresy.
God Bless,
Michael
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Arglaze
Guest
Please, read the Scriptures and Prophesies in the context they are written.
Revelation 12’s “a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars” is symbolic of God’s people, not a person in particular.
It’s very common in prophetic interpretation to represent God’s people as a ‘woman’, even in the Old Testament.
We know that this is not symbolic of Mary directly, because she was not “clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”, nor was she given the wings of an eagle to fly to a desert, nor a dragon spewed water to get her carried away, nor did the earth open her mouth to save her.
We need to be careful in taking symbolic prophesy and applying it to narrow ideas. The context here is much broader and it refers to God’s people. The remnant of her seed are the gentiles who accepted the word of God and keep it. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
So be careful when citing scripture, I already explained this several posts before.
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Arglaze
Guest
That doesn’t answer the fact that Jesus existed before Mary.
She was not before Christ, the second person of the trinity. The Holy Spirit used her body to give Christ his mortality. To be born like any of us into this World. But Christ was before Mary, therefore she’s not the literal “Mother of God”.
Paul makes it plain that Jesus, who’s existed before Mary, was given a human body, so he could die.
“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me” Hebrews 10:5
Notice that Paul says, ‘when he cometh into the world’. That means he’s just using her body, give birth to a body that could hide Jesus’ divinity in humanity. But in the verse Paul admits his pre-existence.
Even John says in the beginning was the Word, and that Word came and dwelled among us. That Word is Jesus, who was before the world existed.
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mikeledes
Guest
And who said anything about Mary pre-existing Christ? Mary is mother because she carried Jesus/ God the Son in her womb for nine months, she gave birth to Him, she nursed Him, and she raised Him.God Bless,
Michael
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Believe_85
Guest
Arglaze,
Is your beef with the title Mother of God because Jesus is eternal and Mary is not?
Catholics also believe Jesus is eternally God, existing before the universe. We do not believe Mary is the reason Jesus came into existence, as he is eternal and Mary was only human. She was however, a very special human, specifically chosen to bear Jesus. I’m not sure why you disagree with Mother of God unless it is that you believe Catholics think Jesus was not eternal or that Mary caused him to exist (which is not representative of our beliefs).
Is your beef with the title Mother of God because Jesus is eternal and Mary is not?
Catholics also believe Jesus is eternally God, existing before the universe. We do not believe Mary is the reason Jesus came into existence, as he is eternal and Mary was only human. She was however, a very special human, specifically chosen to bear Jesus. I’m not sure why you disagree with Mother of God unless it is that you believe Catholics think Jesus was not eternal or that Mary caused him to exist (which is not representative of our beliefs).
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Arglaze
Guest
That makes Joseph the father of God as well then, and like I said, anyone along Mary’s side would be grandfathers and mothers of God as well. The idea doesn’t make sense.
God Bless,
Michael
A body was prepared for Jesus, so he could be born in the world like anyone else, and suffer just like anyone else, so he could be our example.
His pre-existence only shows that he did not exists through Mary, he already existed. In other words, the Holy Spirit placed Jesus (God) in Mary’s womb so he could be born in human flesh. That doesn’t make her the mother of God.
That only makes her the birth giver of the Body that Jesus (God) encased himself in.
Jesus’ accusers were doing everything possible to prove that because he was born of a woman, he was not pre-existent. But He is pre-existent, therefore Mary, is not literally the ‘mother of God’, only the birth giver to the body that Jesus used to hide his Eternal Divinity.
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