How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?

[Arglaze]

Hi Arglaze,

The thing about that is that we could go back and forth all day: Roman Catholics say that the RCC has been around for 2000 years and the Eastern Orthodox Church for only 1000 years; EOs say that the EOC has been around for 2000 years and the RCC for only 1000; Protestants (I assume) would say that neither has been around for 2000 years …

It all depends on who you think is “the one true church” and who broke away from whom, etc.

Exactly. That’s why time of existence has no meaning for me. God is eternal, but men soon forget his greatness. Ancient Israel did this many times, and it just shows that human nature can get in the way every time.
The RCC doesn’t determine who the true church is. God determines who his Church is, and a church that holds doctrines that are not in accordance to God’s word, regardless of name is definetly not following Him.
Jesus said:
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” John 10:27
“But he answered and said unto him that told him, **Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? **
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” Matt. 12:48

 

[Thing]

1. The phrase is a grammatical error. The correct phrase is “Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise” (Future). “Today”, is used only for emphasis in the promise, remember the original script did not have punctuations.

Luke 23

43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Matthew 5

18 For amen I say unto you,

Matthew 5

26 Amen I say to thee,

Matthew 6

2 … Amen I say to you,

Matthew 6

5 Amen I say to you,

Matthew 6

16 Amen I say to you,

Mark 11

23 Amen I say to you,

Mark 12

43 Amen I say to you,

Mark 13

30 Amen I say to you,

Mark 14

9 Amen, I say to you,

Mark 14

18 Amen I say to you,

Mark 14

25 Amen I say to you,

Mark 14

30 Amen I say to thee,

Luke 4

24 Amen I say to you,

Luke 7

9 Amen I say to you,

Luke 12

37 Amen I say to you,

Luke 18

17 Amen, I say to you:

Luke 18

29 Amen, I say to you,

Luke 21

32 Amen, I say to you,

I begin to see a pattern…

 

[Arglaze]

The Intercession of the Saints

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

Hermas

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Note the date is 80 A.D. Apostles were alive

Both Ps. 103:20–21 and Ps. 148 are not encouraging men to ask the Angels or saints to pray to God for them or to even pray to God, no where in that text is the word “prayer” used or implied, that is no a correct interpretation; this text is a worship request.
The song is simply saying to the Angels to bless the Lord, and it acknowledges that they do God’s will, no joining in prayer or request for sinners in there.
The elders in revelation offer the prayers of the saints with the golden bowl and many other places in Revelation where censer is used. This is the anti typical fulfillment of the Ceremonial Laws. That’s all there is to it. Notice there is no request or command to pray to saints or ask them to pray to God for us or anything like that; Its an dangerous assumption.
Kind of like a person pointing at God and instead of looking at God, the person looks at the finger or the person doing the pointing. There is no lesson about praying to saints in those texts.
Asking a friend to pray with you is not the same as asking a dead person to pray for you. And there is no Scripture proof of when a person dies they go to Heaven. There are many convoluted explanations but not 1 text that says that. The resurrection is for the dead, not those in heaven, those in heaven don’t need resurrection. Therefore 1 Thesalonians 4:16 refers to those sleeping in the dust. So prayer to dead saints is not instructed in scriptures.
No one in the Old Testament practiced praying to saints, Jesus did not teach this in His days, nor during the Apostles days, and the Bible doesn’t teach that as a way of prayer.

As far as that “The Shepherd” text that I’ve never read or seen before, there’s nothing wrong with the “intercession” there presented, it passes the test of the Law and the Testimony, so I can’t argue against it, even though I am yet to verify the authenticity of the text. The intercession consisted in the Angel strengthening “Hermas”. This has been done in the OT for many people, including Daniel when he was weak (Dan. 10:17-18). But notice that whoever wrote the text is telling the person to ask “The LORD” directly, not to pray to the angel so the angel can ask to the Lord. There is no chain. The angel did his part in strengthening him but now he needs to pray to God, directly as the text says.

I will not condemn anyone who prays to saints because that is what they were taught, and they lived in the light they had, may God bless them. However, if anyone intends to practice this, please keep in mind that it’s a man made doctrine based in unscriptual traditions that emerged years after the Apostles died, and there is no record of the OT, Jesus, or the Apostles teaching or practicing this. So it is doing something God does not ask from us.

 

[Arglaze]

Luke 23
43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Matthew 5
18 For amen I say unto you,
Matthew 5
26 Amen I say to thee,
Matthew 6
2 … Amen I say to you,
Matthew 6
5 Amen I say to you,
Matthew 6
16 Amen I say to you,
Mark 11
23 Amen I say to you,
Mark 12
43 Amen I say to you,
Mark 13
30 Amen I say to you,
Mark 14
9 Amen, I say to you,
Mark 14
18 Amen I say to you,
Mark 14
25 Amen I say to you,
Mark 14
30 Amen I say to thee,
Luke 4
24 Amen I say to you,
Luke 7
9 Amen I say to you,
Luke 12
37 Amen I say to you,
Luke 18
17 Amen, I say to you:
Luke 18
29 Amen, I say to you,
Luke 21
32 Amen, I say to you,
I begin to see a pattern…

And yet you fail to see that they didn’t go to Paradise, for Paradise is where God’s throne is not where the dead are, but where the living are, Stephen saw Christ standing at the right hand of God after the resurrection. And Jesus told Mary even after his resurrection he had not gone to the Father yet.
That pattern in all those texts must be understood in the context of what they were saying. Look at the big picture.

 

[Thing]

And yet you fail to see that they didn’t go to Paradise, for Paradise is where God’s throne is not where the dead are, but where the living are, Stephen saw Christ standing at the right hand of God after the resurrection. And Jesus told Mary even after his resurrection he had not gone to the Father yet.
That pattern in all those texts must be understood in the context of what they were saying. Look at the big picture.

He never ever said ‘Amen I say to you today,…’ anywhere in Scriptures, ever.

He is obviously speaking on the day He is speaking, very unnecessary to say He is speaking to them today, they know that, and they are dying and they don’t care about the day or about placing emphasis in a sentence. They just want to know what He said. What did He say? one of the thieves asks the other; He said… today… you… will…be with …Him in paradise.

 

[adrift]

Ok? Could u explain to me how I become my own god if I read the Word of God and it doesn’t tell me to worship the virgin Mary (rest in peace) and it tells me that the only way to the Father is Jesus (not the saints or angels) and no one can prove from the Scriptures anything different?

You don’t seem to be able to grasp that which contradicts your own preconceived ideas. Catholic do not worship Mary. You have ignored all that has been presented to you and continue to say there is not evidence. If you close your eyes, you only see the darkness that surrounds you.

These things were not taught by the original apostles, and I happen to believe all necessry Truth for salvation is in the OT and what the Apostles wrote in the NT. Therefore excuse me when I say the pope has no authority at all in matters of salvation unless he teaches it from the Word of God.

You have been shown that it was taught by the apostles. Eyes still closed?

Now, I believe that if I make 1 man have ultimate authority when it comes to doctrine and salvation, and I choose to follow him, and that man is not Jesus, then I’ve made a god for myself.

But that is what you have done.

The pope believed in evolution 4 goodness sake. Can’t u see how capable the church is of erring? The RCC is not what the Apostolic church was, and as long as they don’t leave behind all the unscriptual doctrine, they can’t claim to be the Word of God.

Do you always get your facts so wrong? You have been proven so wrong. You just ignore what is show you. Your list was shown to be wrong in dates. Yet you do not comment on that are your Eyes shut?

 

[adrift]

He never ever said ‘Amen I say to you today,…’ anywhere in Scriptures, ever.

He is obviously speaking on the day He is speaking, very unnecessary to say He is speaking to them today, they know that, and they are dying and they don’t care about the day or about placing emphasis in a sentence. They just want to know what He said. What did He say? one of the thieves asks the other; He said… today… you… will…be with …Him in paradise.

 

[Arglaze]

He never ever said ‘Amen I say to you today,…’ anywhere in Scriptures, ever.

He is obviously speaking on the day He is speaking, very unnecessary to say He is speaking to them today, they know that, and they are dying and they don’t care about the day or about placing emphasis in a sentence. They just want to know what He said. What did He say? one of the thieves asks the other; He said… today… you… will…be with …Him in paradise.

Anyone who wants to build an entire doctrine based on 1 text that is clearly exposed to a grammatical error does not have a firm foundation in the Word of Jesus. If we hold the word of men above the Word of God, we have men as our foundation, a house built on the sand.

I’m humbly inviting people to consider the fact that the original Script did not have punctuations.
And also the fact that Jesus himself said that He had not gone to the Father until after His resurrection and after speaking to Mary, but before seeing the disciples. If you need the texts I’ll give them. But it’s pointless if preconceived ideas will direct minds, instead of the Word of God.

Truth will shine clearly throughout the Word of God and everything syncs. Time will not change error into truth. If Jesus and the thief went to Heaven or Paradise that day, then Christ clearly contradicts himself in what He tells Mary when He resurrected.
You don’t have to accept my word, read it in the Bible for yourselves.

Jesus didn’t go to heaven when he died, he went after his resurrection.

 

[Arglaze]

You don’t seem to be able to grasp that which contradicts your own preconceived ideas. Catholic do not worship Mary. You have ignored all that has been presented to you and continue to say there is not evidence. If you close your eyes, you only see the darkness that surrounds you.

You have been shown that it was taught by the apostles. Eyes still closed?

But that is what you have done.

Do you always get your facts so wrong? You have been proven so wrong. You just ignore what is show you. Your list was shown to be wrong in dates. Yet you do not comment on that are your Eyes shut?

The RCC technique never changes, attack the messenger instead of the message.
Please provide the text where Jesus or the apostles, or the OT instruct praying to God through saints. All that’s been presented are of context David songs where he tells angels and his people to worship God.
Even in that Hermas example, the explanation given to say pray to to God through saints is off, the writer himself instructs him to pray to God directly.
Whether RCCs accept it or not, they worship and pray the way they do, not because of what the Bible says but because of traditions that men who claim to b under the protection of the Holy Spirit from lying teach their Word comes directly from heaven without giving Scripture base.
Please produce the texts outside of what the pope teaches.

 

[Sailka]

Luke 23

43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Matthew 5

18 For amen I say unto you,

Matthew 5

26 Amen I say to thee,

Matthew 6

2 … Amen I say to you,

Matthew 6

5 Amen I say to you,

Matthew 6

16 Amen I say to you,

Mark 11

23 Amen I say to you,

Mark 12

43 Amen I say to you,

Mark 13

30 Amen I say to you,

Mark 14

9 Amen, I say to you,

Mark 14

18 Amen I say to you,

Mark 14

25 Amen I say to you,

Mark 14

30 Amen I say to thee,

Luke 4

24 Amen I say to you,

Luke 7

9 Amen I say to you,

Luke 12

37 Amen I say to you,

Luke 18

17 Amen, I say to you:

Luke 18

29 Amen, I say to you,

Luke 21

32 Amen, I say to you,

I begin to see a pattern…

Vivat Jesus. Tony

 

[adrift]

1. Jesus did not preach to the dead (that’s not in the Holy Scriptures and probably another man made teaching not put to the test).

1 Peter 3:19

Total misinterpretation of the text by the RCC to say God aproves celibacy.

I’m not going to teach an entire history lesson just to show off,

Good thing you don’t give a history lesson since you don’t have a good grasp of it.
There is no misinterpretation. It is disingenuous of you not to admit that there is a scripture that deals with celibacy. Oh and you are the one who is misinterpreting scripture.

And yet you fail to see that they didn’t go to Paradise, for Paradise is where God’s throne is not where the dead are, but where the living are, Stephen saw Christ standing at the right hand of God after the resurrection. And Jesus told Mary even after his resurrection he had not gone to the Father yet.
That pattern in all those texts must be understood in the context of what they were saying. Look at the big picture.

Paradise was not heaven. It was the place where souls went before Jesus redeemed them and to whom He went to preach.

And also the fact that Jesus himself said that He had not gone to the Father until after His resurrection and after speaking to Mary, but before seeing the disciples. If you need the texts I’ll give them. But it’s pointless if preconceived ideas will direct minds, instead of the Word of God.

Truth will shine clearly throughout the Word of God and everything syncs. Time will not change error into truth. If Jesus and the thief went to Heaven or Paradise that day, then Christ clearly contradicts himself in what He tells Mary when He resurrected.
You don’t have to accept my word, read it in the Bible for yourselves.

Jesus didn’t go to heaven when he died, he went after his resurrection.

He does not contradict because you are misusing the word Paradise. It is not Heaven He refers to but where those souls wait for Him. If there weren’t a waiting place than where was Moses? He appeared to Jesus before the Resurrection. He was not in heaven as Jesus had yet to redeem him. Scripture tells us that Jesus preached to the spirits which would include Moses.

 

[RobGentner]

Both Ps. 103:20–21 and Ps. 148 are not encouraging men to ask the Angels or saints to pray to God for them or to even pray to God, no where in that text is the word “prayer” used or implied, that is no a correct interpretation; this text is a worship request.** Let me type this slowly and I ask you to read it slowly so you will understand OK? As PeterJ said we go around and around. I do understand why. Would you like to know why? Because we are telling you the truth, and you don’t believe it!
The Catholic church has all the writings handed down to our ancesters. 5 miles of documents, not just the bible, made from documents used in worship services to “explain” what God wanted expressed to the people during worship. It is “not” a manual titled:** “Everything You Want Or Need To Know About God, In His Own Words! It is documents that were used in"Our” worship services. All the documents were writen to members of “Our” church by members of “Our” church.Accept our documents, accept our interpertation. It is that simple. We never tell the Jews what God meant in the OT. We aren’t that vain! The song is simply saying to the Angels to bless the Lord, and it acknowledges that they do God’s will, no joining in prayer or request for sinners in there.**But we the writers of the document say it does! **The elders in revelation offer the prayers of the saints with the golden bowl and many other places in Revelation where censer is used. This is the anti typical fulfillment of the Ceremonial Laws. That’s all there is to it. Notice there is no request or command to pray to saints or ask them to pray to God for us or anything like that; Its an dangerous assumption.**It is more dangerous to assume to tell the Father’s people what He meant when He told them things that He wanted accomplished. Just because it wasn’t in one insopired but not infalliable selection of books that the True church has.received written and maintained. **
Kind of like a person pointing at God and instead of looking at God, the person looks at the finger or the person doing the pointing. There is no lesson about praying to saints in those texts.
Asking a friend to pray with you is not the same as asking a dead person to pray for you. **My precious friend, They are alive! Time is only for the “living” God and all the angels and saints are not in the physical world where time exists! :whacky: **And there is no Scripture proof of when a person dies they go to Heaven. There are many convoluted explanations but not 1 text that says that. The resurrection is for the dead, not those in heaven, those in heaven don’t need resurrection. Therefore 1 Thesalonians 4:16 refers to those sleeping in the dust. So prayer to dead saints is not instructed in scriptures.**explained! :banghead: **

As far as that “The Shepherd” text that I’ve never read or seen before, there’s nothing wrong with the “intercession” there presented, it passes the test of the Law and the Testimony, so I can’t argue against it, even though I am yet to verify the authenticity of the text. **Well aren’t you just as cute as you can be! You finally agree with GOD about something! Way to go! **The intercession consisted in the Angel strengthening “Hermas”. This has been done in the OT for many people, including Daniel when he was weak (Dan. 10:17-18). But notice that whoever wrote the text is telling the person to ask “The LORD” directly, not to pray to the angel so the angel can ask to the Lord. There is no chain. The angel did his part in strengthening him but now he needs to pray to God, directly as the text says.

I will not condemn anyone who prays to saints because that is what they were taught, and they lived in the light they had, may God bless them. However, if anyone intends to practice this, please keep in mind that it’s a man made doctrine **True, made by a man named Jesus! **based in unscriptual traditions that emerged years after the Apostles died, **Untrue! and there is no record of the OT, Jesus, or the Apostles teaching or practicing this. So it is doing something God does not ask from us. Oh to be so sure what God askes from us! You must be really close to Him, Am I permitted to touch the heam of your garment? :extrahappy: **
OK one last time:
“Our” Books, “Our” Religion, “Our” Interpretation is the True One. “Our” belief system! Why are we correct in our use of the bible? Because we interpret to “teach” what God said. Not to “disprove” anything that He taught. See the difference? SIGH, brobably not! :banghead: His desires and teachings were and are revealed to the "Living "Church by God . Not some man who read one of our books! You even “added” puntuation in ancent test, aren’t you just too precious! We will fix our bibles tomorrrow! Please, don’t try and tell us what God told us, please allow us to tell you! Don’t use “Our” books to show us where we are wrong. We have 2,000 years of teachers, Doctors of the Church, and tradition to tell us how to do things. We do not need, want or believe any johnny come lately to tell us what we should beleive based on their picking our books apart and saying “Look it says so here!” How dumb is that???

Arglaze, you are like a student saying:“Teacher, please let me explain to you what you want to teach us. I know everything because I read one of the text books!”

Arglaze, may God Bless you in your journey through Life! May He guide you into the True Church so your time knowing of Him can then be turned into spending time knowing Him!

 

[adrift]

**
My sincere apology adrift The remark was posted by “Arglaze” and you responded to that! I was in a rush to get out the doo and misread. I stand corrected! **

I think this happens to many. Thanks for the apology.

 

[adstrinity]

question for you Rob. Who is “they”?

Personally i love the entire Bible and when someone gives a passage like Revelation 12:1-5, i ask myself what came before and after that passage. So can you explain verses 6, 13-17 to me?

Well, it’s all pretty straight forward.

What specifically do you have questions about?

 

[Sailka]

Total misinterpretation of the text by the RCC to say God aproves celibacy.

I’m not going to teach an entire history lesson just to show off, I’m just pointing the dates around which these doctrines emerged, and the fact that they were not instituted by the Apostles.

Celibacy is unscriptual, but the implementation of it was predicted by Paul when he said.

1 Timothy 4:1-3
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

Therefore, its not hard to see that somewhere along the time line, the Roman Catholic Leadership departed from God in many ways (just like the Jews), and guided many to practice and worship in ways that God never asked them to do in Jesus or the Scriptures by imposing their traditions above the Word of God.

Please see my Post # 656 re God, through the Apostles, authorized Celibacy for full Clergy, Old and New Testaments.

Are’nt you ignoring the Written Word, And Teachings of the Apostles, and the Church Our Lord began, to invent your own new ideas, teachings, history, dates, interpretations?
Vivat Jesus. Tony

 

[Peter_J]

John 9:34
They answered and said to him, “You were born totally in sin, and are you trying to teach us?” Then they threw him out.

 

[Sailka]

Ok? Could u explain to me how I become my own god if I read the Word of God and it doesn’t tell me to worship the virgin Mary (rest in peace) and it tells me that the only way to the Father is Jesus (not the saints or angels) and no one can prove from the Scriptures anything different?

These things were not taught by the original apostles, and I happen to believe all necessry Truth for salvation is in the OT and what the Apostles wrote in the NT. Therefore excuse me when I say the pope has no authority at all in matters of salvation unless he teaches it from the Word of God.

Now, I believe that if I make 1 man have ultimate authority when it comes to doctrine and salvation, and I choose to follow him, and that man is not Jesus, then I’ve made a god for myself.

The pope believed in evolution 4 goodness sake. Can’t u see how capable the church is of erring? The RCC is not what the Apostolic church was, and as long as they don’t leave behind all the unscriptual doctrine, they can’t claim to be the Word of God.

Arglaze, Hi again. I don’t have time to walk through your ideas line by line. Jus a few Big thoughts, of History And Written Bible:
Know what The Word Was/Is? The Teachings of the Lord Through the Apostles. Only Later were many Written Down, since 387 AD Council of Carthage the Bible Books of God’s Word.
We don’t worship Mary, or any Saint or Angel. We have very highest Respect for them, and ask the Human ones to Pray for us. Which is in the Bible as others cited to you.

God placed the Truth on Earth in the Apostles And the Church He founded. 1 Timothy 3:15, Mathew 16:18-19. Why do you think Our Lord gave the Keys to Heaven, to salvation, to Peter? Why didn’t Our Lord give Each of us the key to heaven, or tell us he Printed Word of God is Necessary for Dogma or salvation or Is the key to heaven?

Ditto Church Authority: to the Apostles, chosen by Our Lord to lead His Church, built on Peter, called The Rock by oir Lord: Apostolic Authority, according to God, not our opinions: Deuter. 17: 8-11; Matt 10: 40; Matt 18: 17; >>>>> Matt 18: 18 <<<<; ** Matt 28: 18-20; Luke 10: 16; John 3: 34; John 13: 20** Nowhere in a printed book.

Have tons more specific head-on Bible quotes of Our Lord’s opinions, not Ours. Don’t have time now. Began this 22 hours ago.
Bless you, and let the Lord Bless you, not all Our ideas.
Vivat Jesus. Tony

 

[RobGentner]

**Originally Posted by Arglaze
Total misinterpretation of the text by the RCC to say God aproves celibacy.

I’m not going to teach an entire history lesson just to show off,**
**
No! You are just going to say the RCC misinterpretated the text. And won’t teach an entire history lesson just to show off. :extrahappy: You are too Cute!:extrahappy: Why do I not think you capable of teaching even a small history lesson? You could have least quoted yourself!

Let me conduct a small history lesson to instruct not to show off~

Celibacy is a state of being which may be voluntarily entered into in order to focus on God’s work or it may be absolutely required during certain stages of life due to circumstance. For example, before marriage, celibacy is an absolute requirement. Or, when a spouse dies, the survivor must remain celibate until he or she remarries. However, there are special cases where a person may decide to be celibate in order to concentrate on the things of God. Christ is very clear, however, that this is not a requirement. One may serve God in any capacity while being married.
One thing is certain, a sexual relationship outside marriage is strictly forbidden and such relationships will, if persisted in, keep one out of the Kingdom of God (See 1 Corinthians 6:9,10; Galatians 5:19-21)

In Matthew 19:10-12 Jesus says that celibacy (i.e. remaining unmarried) is a special gift that not everyone can manage.

1 Corinthians 7:1-9, 25-40, Paul says that it’s fine to be idealistically commited to not marrying in order to devote one’s life wholly to the service of God but if you can’t handle it, you could be setting ourself up for spiritual disaster - we have seen how some churhes have had to deal with horrendous sins of fornication, adultery, and perversion because their priests were not able to contain their sexuality. Paul’s practical advice: it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

One issue closely related to ministerial priesthood is the celibacy imposed by the Catholic Church to those who want to become priests and bishops.

Does the Bible say that bishop is a husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:2) and that forbidding marriage is the doctrine of the demons (1 Timothy 4:1-3)?

First celibacy of the priests and bishops is neither doctrine nor dogma but a discipline imposed by the Western (or Latin) Catholic Church. In the Eastern Catholic Church married men can be ordained as priests (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1580). The Church also welcomes as married priests, former (married) clergies of Anglican or Episcopal or Lutheran church who converted to Catholicism. The Church does not and never forbids marriage - married Catholics far outnumber non-married ones, be they bishops, priests, monks, nuns or laity. The candidates for priesthood are fully aware of celibacy discipline before and during their seminary times - they have ample time to consider whether this vocation is for them or not. Thus it is celibacy based on voluntary, not a forced one, as stated in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 A focus on celibacy is a sign of the false church. Jesus’ teaching is very balanced and is echoed by the other New Testament writers - To remain celibate for the Gospel’s sake is a good thing but it is rare. Mandatory Celibacy for “all members” is practised by sects like Cathar in Europe (12th - 13th century) and Shaker in USA. What happens if a priest decided to get married after being ordained? The Catholic Church would not stop him either for doing so - he can undergo laicization process to leave priesthood.
totustuus.com/index.htm is the web site of such priest, now happily married and father of nine children and is still in good standing with the Church.
1 Timothy 3:2 say bishop is to be a husband of one wife - it excludes men who are polygamists, but it does not impose marriage as a necessary condition for a bishop. If this verse is to be interpreted to mean a bishop must marry, then how about 1 Timothy 3:4 that mentions his children (plural)? If being married is mandatory, then having children is also mandatory, i.e. those who are childless or have only one child cannot become bishop. Remember that the apostle Paul himself was celibate - it will make him hypocrite if he made marriage mandatory, something that he himself would not obey. Does celibacy have biblical support?
In Matthew 19:12 Christ mentioned those who make themselves eunuchs (not married) for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, if they are able to receive it. While Paul is not against marriage - For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion (1 Corinthians 7:9), he wished all were as he was (i.e. unmarried, 1 Corinthians 7:7) and told the unmarried and widows to remain single, provided they can exercise self-control (1 Corinthians 7:8).
The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about wordly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided (1 Corinthians 7:32-34) and he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better (1 Corinthians 7:38).
Being celibate and being married are both gift from God given to each person according to His plan, i.e. not all of us is called for celibacy. God is not against celibacy - He commanded prophet Jeremiah neither to take a wife nor to have children (Jeremiah 16:1-2).**

 

[RobGentner]

And yet you fail to see that they didn’t go to Paradise, for Paradise is where God’s throne is not where the dead are, but where the living are, Stephen saw Christ standing at the right hand of God after the resurrection. And Jesus told Mary even after his resurrection he had not gone to the Father yet.
That pattern in all those texts must be understood in the context of what they were saying. Look at the big picture.

**Arglaze, My friend. If the quote is " Amen I say to you this day, thou shall be with me in heaven" not " Amen I say to you, this day thou shall be with me in paradise." How do you expect to prove that? There were no punctuation in any of the OT. It wasn’t needed as it is in other languages. Why? Because the words themself can only be read one way. Which has been translated into English to read: " Amen I say to you, this day thou shall be with me in paradise" You can’t change them to “prove” what you want to prove unless you are GOD! That is why people accuse you of being your own god. do you now understand? Could the good thief had went to be with the Father on that day in paridise, even if Jesus the son, wasn’t there but among the dead? Who decides, you?
God Bless!

PS We never worship mary, we pray to her and I will pray to her for you! Hail Mary, Full of Grace the lord is with thee, Blesed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus, Holy Mary Mother of God, Pray for ous sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen! Where is the worship in that my friend? **

 

[Usagi]

1. Mary could not be the mother of God. God always was and has no beginning. Mary had a natural birth as a natural human.

We are correct in saying “Jesus is God,” right? We could go into more detail and explain that He is the Second Person of the Trinity incarnate as a man, but “Jesus is God” is a true statement by itself, yes?

Mary is mother of God in the same sense. Of course she is not the origin of the Trinity, nor even of the Son, but she conceived, carried, and gave birth to a man who was truly God. She is mother of the Second Person of the Trinity incarnate, or (as with Jesus above), “mother of God” for short.

That ancient doctrine about Mary has never meant that she is greater than God or the origin of the Trinity. It was defined in order to safeguard the union of the Divine and human in Jesus, by proclaiming that God can truly be said to have been born to a human woman.

1. Scripture does not tell us that Mary was conceived without sin. Even St. Thomas Aquinas said that Mary could not have been conceived without sin because of the Scriptures telling us that Mary rejoiced in God her savior. St. Thomas Aquinas is canonized saint in the RCC and I don’t believe anybody posting here is.

St. Thomas was entitled to his opinion at the time, but the judgments of even the most saintly theologian are not held to be infallible.

God was and is Mary’s savior, for if she was immaculately conceived it can only have been by His direct action.

It’s not as though we’re saying the IC is some great credit to Mary, any more than any of us had anything to do with our own conceptions.

1. Again, Scripture doesn’t say anything about Mary remaining a virgin. It in fact tells us that she had other children besides Jesus and says nothing to the contrary that Mary led a normal married life with Joseph.

Scripture identifies no other children of Mary. Brothers and sisters of Jesus are mentioned, yes, but we know from the usage of the time that they could have been more distant relatives. Nor are we ever told anything like “And Joseph knew Mary his wife and she brought forth a second child.” That the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus could be children of Mary and Joseph is a reasonable assumption, but it remains an assumption. The same gospel that names four brothers of the Lord repeats the names of two of them (including the unusual form “Joses”) as sons of a different Mary who was present at the Crucifixion.

By the second century, Mary’s perpetual virginity was already being proclaimed and no one wrote against it for centuries, despite the Scriptural mention of Jesus’ possible siblings. Perhaps they knew something we don’t? Would the students of St. James of Jerusalem so quickly forget, if their teacher had been known to be Mary’s son?

1. Scripture tells us of Enoch being assumed into Heaven body and spirit but never anything about Mary.

That’s true. Enoch, Elijah, and maaaybe Moses (not directly but by way of Jude’s reference to a non-Scriptural work on Moses’ assumption). On the other hand, Mary was likely alive when much of the New Testament was written, and even when she did die, her Assumption would have been one miracle among many occurring in the early Church, and not one particularly central to the message. Even in the Catholic Church, the Assumption only became the fourth Marian dogma a little over fifty years ago, by popular demand.

As you can see clearly, the Mary of the Catholic church is a far different Mary than the Mary in Scripture.

Only if you have a highly exaggerated idea of “the Mary of the Catholic Church.”

Usagi