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Sailka
Guest
Thanks! (But I like my Personal interpretation of always present tense Instructive, or Order, in Knighthood): Live in Jesus (Always)
Tony
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Tony
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mercygate
Guest
I apologize for invading your personal magisterium with the facts.
- Thanks! (But I like my Personal interpretation of always present tense Instructive, or Order, in Knighthood): Live in Jesus (Always)
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SFC
Guest
question for you Rob. Who is “they”?**
sseason,
“They”love bible quotes, don’t forget Mary crowned as queen in heaven in Revelations 12, verses 1-5: " A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven…"
Personally i love the entire Bible and when someone gives a passage like Revelation 12:1-5, i ask myself what came before and after that passage. So can you explain verses 6, 13-17 to me?
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Sailka
Guest
Not a Magesterium (always capitalized) but personal interpretation for highly effective ecumenicism and communication… My Knights of Columbus Brother thought, as many do, that Vivat Jesus means ‘Jesus Lives’. What a denaturing misnomer.
Vivat Jesus Tony
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mercygate
Guest
The fact remains that it does not mean “Live in Jesus” – and ecumenism does not require the manipulation of meanings.
- Not a Magesterium (always capitalized) but personal interpretation for highly effective ecumenicism and communication… My Knights of Columbus Brother thought, as many do, that Vivat Jesus means ‘Jesus Lives’. What a denaturing misnomer.
Vivat Jesus Tony
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Sailka
Guest
Christianity, much less Catholicism, means do NOT Attack, criticize another!. Again, a Majority of Knights of Columbus think Vivat Jesus means ‘Jesus Lives’, the Opposite. I spend All my time helping Others!. Vatican Seminary Professor 32 years Fr Henschley expanded my GENERIC use of Present Tense Live in Jesus by adding 2 more examples of Current Tense Latin.
I suggest you Apologize, or face Formal Complaint.
Vivat Jesus, not your precise knowledge of Latin, or do-gooders trying to help others. Tony
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HamtramckSteve
Guest
Arglaze, your list is ridiculous. Did you just copy the text from the first google hit you got? Nothing in that list is accurate, and you don’t do yourself any favors by thinking it is.
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Sailka
Guest
Arglaze, (1) how do you explain your church’s bigining only 1863?
(2) Who are you to invent Massive number of falsehoods and false dates re THE 2,000 year old Church Our Lord founded?
(3) Aren’t you violating several essentials of Your Faith’s standards,# 12 like The Church is a Family of Believers, of different cultures, etc?
(4) Are only 15 Million of your church wordwide. Are 68 Million Catholics in the USA alone.
I ask these sincerely. Am Catholic, the Lord’s way.
Live in Jesus
Tony
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pjbshark
Guest
Is it your contention that nothing is truth that is not found in scripture? How did the Church know what to believe before the New Testament was compiled, hundreds of years after our Lord’s resurrection? And with so few copies available outside of monasteries and even fewer who could read them, how did the faith survive?
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RobGentner
Guest
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My sincere apology adrift
The remark was posted by “Arglaze” and you responded to that! I was in a rush to get out the doo and misread. I stand corrected! **
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
As for 1 Timothy 2.5, ISTM that the mediation of creatures is a created & finite aspect of the infinite Divine-human activity of Christ the Only Mediator. Their mediation no more “unseats” His, than our hands fight against or deny or contest our status as the causes of our posts.
There is no other mediator, but only Christ. A Christ Who Mediates, & has members. So He works through them. None of their activity is outside of, or independent of His - what they do, they are capable of doing only because He unceasingly maintains then by His Spirit. An independent Christian is as much a fiction as a man with ten heads - a Christian is of all creatures least able to work by his native strength. BTW: “Christ works through His members” =///= “Christ does not work except through His members”The problem seems AFAICS to owe something to thinking of Christ as “over here”, & His members as “over there”: IOW, as separate
They are taken up into Him, alive in Him, made effective from Him & because of & for Him, through the indwelling Spirit Who is His & His Father’s. To judge from the NT, the relations between the Divine Persons & the members of Christ are “multi-dimensional”: all Divine Persons are in One Another & all His members are in all the Divine Persons, Who are in them. Not only that, but this complex of relations is living & dynamic.[Hbr 7:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=7&version=RSV#) For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens.
Is there a problem ?
See also:
- Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
- Col 1:16 for** in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, **whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities–all things were created through him and for him.
- Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
- Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.
- Col 1:19 ** For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, **
- Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
If the prepositions are treated literalistically, that passage makes no sense. But in fact, Christ is the cosmic “bond” of all creation - everything is related to Him, is subject to Him, is contained in Him. So he is above the heavens, even though they are in Him, & even though Christians are in Him. If - as - His Primacy is of this non-spatial & transcendent kind, why can His members not be active in Him without exhausting or challenging His Unique Mediatorial activity ? How is He obscured by them ? That’s a bit like saying that an atom in a plant obscures the sun: it is the sun that is a lowly instrument for keeping the atomic structure of plants healthy. Christ is far greater in efficacy & splendour & majesty than any mere star.
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RobGentner
Guest
Originally Posted by Sailka
Thanks! (But I like my Personal interpretation of always present tense Instructive, or Order, in Knighthood): Live in Jesus (Always)
Tony
Mercy! I guess he told you! Tony sounds like one of “them”! He has his mind made up and nothing anyone says matters! Thank goodness he is a good guy! 
**
Thanks! (But I like my Personal interpretation of always present tense Instructive, or Order, in Knighthood): Live in Jesus (Always)
Tony
**
Mercy! I guess he told you!
Tony sounds like one of “them”! He has his mind made up and nothing anyone says matters! Thank goodness he is a good guy! **
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Sailka
Guest
Hope am one of “Us”Originally Posted by Sailka
Thanks! (But I like my Personal interpretation of always present tense Instructive, or Order, in Knighthood): Live in Jesus (Always)
Tony
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Mercy! I guess he told you!
I think all of us need to work Together. No excuse not to.
:yawn: Vivat Jesus. Tony
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RobGentner
Guest
question for you Rob. Who is “they”?
**If you ask I am guessing you are one of them!**Personally i love the entire Bible and when someone gives a passage like Revelation 12:1-5, i ask myself what came before and after that passage. So can you explain verses 6, 13-17 to me? Since we wrote it I kind of like the bible myself. a nice set of books. Poems, history, mystery, music, etc. Inspired not infalliable. I have been told there are over 50 versions out beside the real ones approved by the RCC i ask myself what came before and after that passage. **So why don’t you read what did ? Then you can twist it to mean whatever you want. I, myself actually don’t care. :coffeeread: **
So can you explain verses 6, 13-17 to me? **If I do, will you promise to accept what I tell you?
OK I will give you the short answer. I don’t have any idea!It is about a war past or future. In order to search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention must always be given, among other things, to “literary forms.” For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, poetic, or in this case prophetic.
The interpreter must investigate not only the words used but what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and had actually expressed in particular circumstances by using other contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.
Simple isn’t it?:hypno: So for the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the speach patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another.
So, since the Bible must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written, no less serious attention must be given to the content and its unity of the whole of the Scripture, if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly interpeted.
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SFC
Guest
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
mediator= greek mesites
a go-between, an intermediary, a reconciler.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . .
. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
Mediatrix (from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary}
A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary’s Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.
…This does not imply that the faithful must pray for all graces through Mary, nor that her intercession is inherently necessary for the distribution of divine blessing, but that, according to God’s special ordinance, the graces merited by Christ are conferred through the actual intercessory mediation of his mother. Recent popes and the Second Vatican Council have spoken in favor of this type of mediation, which finds support in patristic tradition…
Catechism of the Catholic Church
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40
I have spent a lot of time and research today reading the Catechism. I did not do it because i wanted to say “got you” but because i respect all of you here and i do believe we are all brothers in Christ. Sailka posted the link to the Catechism earlier and i decided to start reading.
The texts that I have copied from the Catechism shows a clear contradiction with the Bible. For the Catholic Church Mary is a mediator between God and man. It also shows that every catholic is encouraged to pray to Mary (thing that is denied in this forum over and over again). I know that someone will say that when the Catechism says pray it does not really mean pray, but the truth is that not only it says it clearly but it also says that the prayers of every catholic are sustained by her prayer.
This forum is a blessing for me. Today i understood more than ever what Hebrews 4:12-13 means
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
mediator= greek mesites
a go-between, an intermediary, a reconciler.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . .
. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
Mediatrix (from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary}
A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary’s Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.
…This does not imply that the faithful must pray for all graces through Mary, nor that her intercession is inherently necessary for the distribution of divine blessing, but that, according to God’s special ordinance, the graces merited by Christ are conferred through the actual intercessory mediation of his mother. Recent popes and the Second Vatican Council have spoken in favor of this type of mediation, which finds support in patristic tradition…
Catechism of the Catholic Church
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40
I have spent a lot of time and research today reading the Catechism. I did not do it because i wanted to say “got you” but because i respect all of you here and i do believe we are all brothers in Christ. Sailka posted the link to the Catechism earlier and i decided to start reading.
The texts that I have copied from the Catechism shows a clear contradiction with the Bible. For the Catholic Church Mary is a mediator between God and man. It also shows that every catholic is encouraged to pray to Mary (thing that is denied in this forum over and over again). I know that someone will say that when the Catechism says pray it does not really mean pray, but the truth is that not only it says it clearly but it also says that the prayers of every catholic are sustained by her prayer.
This forum is a blessing for me. Today i understood more than ever what Hebrews 4:12-13 means
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
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RobGentner
Guest
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
** The RCC tells us what teachings are Correct. That is why we are “Catholic” we follow OUR CHURCH"s TEACHING!
The key to a correct understanding of 1 Timothy 2:5 is to see that the one mediator stands “between God and men.” Only Jesus Christ can stand for us before God and gain our salvation and all grace. But what he has gained can be distributed from man to man among the members of his body. What he gives to me, I can, by his power, share with you, and vice versa. In fact, we experience this on a daily basis. Mary is a creature just like we are. She is not God!
Jesus is the “source” of grace. As branches abiding in the Vine, we can distribute his grace. Because of his mediation before God on our behalf—because he has gained grace for us and entrusts us with that grace—we are able to impart grace to others. His mother is “Full of Grace”
In calling Mary the Mediatrix of all graces, the Church does not mean that she is a rival for Jesus’ unique place. Vatican II clarified the Church’s position on 1 Timothy 2:5–6:
The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no way obscures Jesus’ place as our savior.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
969 “This motherhood of Mary… by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . .
. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
Mediatrix (from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary}
A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary’s Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.
I pray to Mary daily! I do not worship her. I ask her to have Jesus grant my prayers.
…This does not imply that the faithful must pray for all graces through Mary, nor that her intercession is inherently necessary for the distribution of divine blessing, but that, according to God’s special ordinance, the graces merited by Christ are conferred through the actual intercessory mediation of his mother. Recent popes and the Second Vatican Council have spoken in favor of this type of mediation, which finds support in patristic tradition…
Catechism of the Catholic Church
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40
I have spent a lot of time and research today reading the Catechism.** I did not do it because i wanted to say “got you” but because i respect all of you here and i do believe we are all brothers in Christ. **Sailka posted the link to the Catechism earlier and i decided to start reading. **Sure you do! Could you respect us enough to allow us to practice “Our” religion unmolested by nonbelievers? We will allow you to do the same!**
The texts that I have copied from the Catechism shows a clear contradiction with the Bible.
**Could it be because the bible isn’t infalliable like the Body of Christ with Jesus as Our head is??? ** For the Catholic Church Mary is a mediator between God and man.**So arer saints! We use all the help we can get! ** It also shows that every catholic is encouraged to pray to Mary (thing that is denied in this forum over and over again).A catholic that says they don’t pray to Mary? "Hail Mary full of grace… "One of our main prayers. I pray it over 20 times a day! No Catholic even said they don’t pray to Mary! The may have said they don’t Worship her! We don’t! I know that someone will say that when the Catechism says pray it does not really mean pray, but the truth is that not only it says it clearly but it also says that the prayers of every catholic are sustained by her prayer.**I thank her son for that! Praise Jesus! **
This forum is a blessing for me. Today i understood more than ever what Hebrews 4:12-13 means
**If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Saint Augustine “And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.” --Ephesians 1:23, NLT **
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
**We were called to be witnesses, not lawyers or judges.
**
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SFC
Guest
Rob, after that post this is what i have learned: i know you can “copy and paste” . I also know that you believe that the Word of God is not infallible (i bet you think the Pope is), and that you have no clue what it means. Oh, almost forgot, you hate people that do not share what you believe.
PS: If you believe in a god (notice no capital G Rob) whose word is fallible tell him i want no part with him ok?
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SFC
Guest
Rob i read your previous post and i do not intent to commit the same mistake again, i mean, i am young but i do not have that much time to waste.
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SFC
Guest
i have respected everybody in this forum. Sorry but i dont react nicely to hate.
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