How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?

[Bill_Cherry]

Thomas is an eyewitness to Marys assumption. Tell me more!!!

James

 

[sola_scriptura]

How can you claim to do anything with only the OT, when the NT is the fulfillment and completion of the OT? Prove to me that I can eat shellfish using only the OT. Prove to me that we(as non-jews) are able to gain salvation

What makes a Council any more trustworthy than a Pope?

I understand typology – so sorry to disappoint but you but there’s no eureka here. I understand Jesus fulfills NT prophecy … it’s just that Catholic typology tends to be more wrong than right (especially the Papal declarations).

Are you telling me that nothing in the BIble alludes to anything else?

So in Luke 4 when it says “He stood up to read
and was handed a scroll of the prophet Isaiah. He unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written:
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord.”
Rolling up the scroll, he handed it back to the attendant and sat down, and the eyes of all in the synagogue looked intently at him.
He said to them, “Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing.”"

Jesus must have been lying. Clearly Isaiah couldn’t have been talking about Jesus, he did not know Jesus. He could have only meant himself

If there is any “type” for the Ark it is Jesus not Mary. RCC Mariology is exegesis gone wildly astray.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Yeah, I noticed that signature. I would like some Scripture proof that the purgatory exists also, or just send me a private message with Bible texts so that I can study it.

I will save you some time though by saying, “Purgatory” is a man made doctrine as well, not the Word of God.

And please correct me if I’m wrong, but it was used to say that after death, you can buy your way to heaven with money (one of the reasons why the mafia paid the Catholic church for their sins, but thats another can of worms no one needs to reply to), even though it wasn’t invented originally for that. It was used like that in times past.

Hmmm, I have some research to do.

Just read up on the commissioner for indulgences, appointed by Pope Leo X – Johann Tetzle! When a coin in the coffer rings a soul from purgatory springs. What could be a more blatant exploitation of people than that?

 

[sola_scriptura]

The idea that when you die you go to heaven, but at the resurrection you weren’t really in heaven, you are being resurrected are contradictory. And there is no scripture proof to show when you die you go to heaven. The only thing that goes to “God” not heaven is the breath of life He gave you when he gave you life. And I quote the scriptures not my paraphrasing:

Psalms 146:4 Speaking of someone who dies, “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Which means, you have no state of consciousness.

Just read Rev. 21. There is the first heaven & then the new heaven that will be created upon the second coming. That’s what scripture states – so I see nothing contradictory.

Indeed when someone dies there mortal thoughts perish – however, their soul goes to heaven and awaits the resurrection and coming kingdom.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6. “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”

The prophet was eluding to mortality (everything under the sun) and nothing else.

Job 14:12 “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.”

Psalms 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”

There’s no such thing in the scriptures such as when you die the elect go to Heaven, and then at the resurrection those people are resurrected, it makes no sense. If they are in heaven, they don’t need to be resurrected. But if they are resurrected, then they were never in heaven. But in the grave, Sheol, tomb, whatever the term you want to use for the state of the dead.

I need to get to drill right now – I’ll gladly deal with this topic more in depth later – all of these passages are misconstrued by the “soul sleeper” crowd.

The statement in the Bible that Jesus said to the thief was:
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”
It is a typo of translation. Many scholars agree. The statement was Verily I say unto thee Today (meaning he’s saying what he’s saying in that day), thou shall be in paradise.

Many scholars don’t agree – only the “soul sleeper” crowd (like Adventist or JW scholars – if they can even be called scholars). The Holy Spirit didn’t inspire “typo’s” – this is nonsense.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Just read Rev. 21. There is the first heaven & then the new heaven that will be created upon the second coming. That’s what scripture states – so I see nothing contradictory.
…

Many scholars don’t agree – only the “soul sleeper” crowd (like Adventist or JW scholars – if they can even be called scholars). The Holy Spirit didn’t inspire “typo’s” – this is nonsense.

You two fundamentalists (Arglaze & sola_sriptura) slinging scripture at each other and pontificating personal dogma like two self appointed false popes are more entertaining than a barrel of monkeys. CAF should charge admission to enter this particular thread.

I will respond to a few absurdities you both make when I have more time later today.

James

 

[Lee]

1. Mary could not be the mother of God. God always was and has no beginning. Mary had a natural birth as a natural human.
2. Scripture does not tell us that Mary was conceived without sin. Even St. Thomas Aquinas said that Mary could not have been conceived without sin because of the Scriptures telling us that Mary rejoiced in God her savior. St. Thomas Aquinas is canonized saint in the RCC and I don’t believe anybody posting here is.
3. Again, Scripture doesn’t say anything about Mary remaining a virgin. It in fact tells us that she had other children besides Jesus and says nothing to the contrary that Mary led a normal married life with Joseph.
4. Scripture tells us of Enoch being assumed into Heaven body and spirit but never anything about Mary.

As you can see clearly, the Mary of the Catholic church is a far different Mary than the Mary in Scripture.

1. Jesus himself was born of flesh, a natural birth. Was he not God? Mary is not God, she is THE MOTHER of God. Jesus was both human and divine. You can’t seperate the two without throwing out historical Christianity.

2.Scripture does not tell us everything. Does it mention cars, high gas prices etc.? Thomas Aquinas is canonized a saint, for the way he lived his life, I dont think the Church teaches that every word uttered by a saint is infallible. It says that their lives merit taking a look into so that we may be better Christians by imatating them.

1. That is up to your interpretation of scripture. Many say that that word brother was used not only for biological brothers, but for cousins a well. Where were these siblings when Mary was at the cross with John? If you dont believe the Catholic interpretation of Jesus giving Mary to all of us at the foot of the Cross, then you must ask yourself, why would Jesus say to John this is your mother? As a protestant you must believe he was giving her to him to take care of. Where were these siblings of Jesus?
2. The Bible itself tells us that not every occurrence in the life of Jesus was recorded. Does the Bible ever use the word Trinity? Do you as a Christian believe this?

and just to clear things up, Co-redemtrix does not mean that Mary saved us. The lating -co- means with. She cooperated WITH the salvific plan of God. She did not redeem us. Only Christ did that.

 

[adrift]

And please correct me if I’m wrong, but it was used to say that after death, you can buy your way to heaven with money (one of the reasons why the mafia paid the Catholic church for their sins, but thats another can of worms no one needs to reply to), even though it wasn’t invented originally for that. It was used like that in times past.

Hmmm, I have some research to do.

I am glad you will research but you are wrong. I don’t know who “it was used to say” but it wasn’t the Catholic Church.

 

[Arglaze]

Just read up on the commissioner for indulgences, appointed by Pope Leo X – Johann Tetzle! When a coin in the coffer rings a soul from purgatory springs. What could be a more blatant exploitation of people than that?

and I’m still waiting for the Word of God regarding the purgatory. Unless you consider the pope as God.

 

[adstrinity]

You two fundamentalists (Arglaze & sola_sriptura) slinging scripture at each other and pontificating personal dogma like two self appointed false popes are more entertaining than a barrel of monkeys.

I just can’t believe that somebody here actually believes in soul sleep. I am VERY impressed with the Verses cited to get to his line of reasoning, though. That was as enlightening as the Mormon’s take on, “And Hell shall not prevail…”

Anyway, I just want to say, as I think it was in this thread, your signature line was mentioned, that I used to always click on your, “Free 1,000 Souls from Purgatory,” link (I need all of their prayers, you see) and I still do now from time to time. Thank you for providing that link; do not ever get rid of it. It is much too valuable for all here! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

[Arglaze]

You two fundamentalists (Arglaze & sola_sriptura) slinging scripture at each other and pontificating personal dogma like two self appointed false popes are more entertaining than a barrel of monkeys. CAF should charge admission to enter this particular thread.

I will respond to a few absurdities you both make when I have more time later today.

James

BTW we’re not slinging scripture at each other just for our amusement. We’re two honest Christians who believe the Word of God gives the testimony of Christ and we’re seeking the ‘thus saith The Lord’ and not the ‘thus saith the pope’.
The Word of God is for everyone and God would have it so. The only time a church did something contrary was the Catholic church when they took Bibles away from the people saying only the priests are allowed to have them.
We’re definetly not self apointed popes. And if you don’t like that someone quotes the scriptures, then there’s nothing we can do about that.

“To the Law and to the Testimony, is they speak not according to this Word, there is no light in them” -Isaiah 8

 

[SenorSalsa]

Just read up on the commissioner for indulgences, appointed by Pope Leo X – Johann Tetzle! When a coin in the coffer rings a soul from purgatory springs. What could be a more blatant exploitation of people than that?

A few years later, in 1567, Pope Pius V cancelled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions

-Taken from “Indulgences” on Wikipedia

Are you really going to try to argue based on something that is nearly 500 years extinct? Not to mention the fact that they prayer that that sig links to was revealed to Saint in private revelation, approved by the Vatican. What that means is that they believe it and its message to be true, but do not require of anyone else to believe the same. So I can say that prayer and believe 1000 souls have been helped, and you can not. We are free to disagree on the subject.

There is of course, one right answer, but we are unable to know it at this point in time, and would have to wait until we reached final judgement to find out.

 

[Our_Refuge]

I would be grateful to any protestant that can show me where in the bible in says that we are saved by faith alone

Instead I find

James 2: 24-26 “ You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2: 26 “ For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”

I been trying to find where is says that the bible is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Instead I find

1 Tim 3:15 “ if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

I keep trying to find a vesr that says that the through the bible all wisdom might be know.

But instead I find.

Eph. 3:10-14 ”To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that **through the church **the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him.

 

[SenorSalsa]

BTW we’re not slinging scripture at each other just for our amusement. We’re two honest Christians who believe the Word of God gives the testimony of Christ and we’re seeking the ‘thus saith The Lord’ and not the ‘thus saith the pope’.
The Word of God is for everyone and God would have it so. The only time a church did something contrary was the Catholic church when they took Bibles away from the people saying only the priests are allowed to have them.
We’re definetly not self apointed popes. And if you don’t like that someone quotes the scriptures, then there’s nothing we can do about that.

“To the Law and to the Testimony, is they speak not according to this Word, there is no light in them” -Isaiah 8

hmmmm, I guess I am breaking Church law by owning the 3 Bibles that I have, in three different translations. Who would’ve thought.

Oh wait, your referencing ancient history too. Please, if you are going to try to take on the “wrongs” of the Catholic Church, pick modern ones. I have not read all of Luther’s Theses, but my guess is that none of them talk bout things that were done 500 years before his time and did not continue after that.

 

[Arglaze]

I just can’t believe that somebody here actually believes in soul sleep. I am VERY impressed with the Verses cited to get to his line of reasoning, though. That was as enlightening as the Mormon’s take on, “And Hell shall not prevail…”

Anyway, I just want to say, as I think it was in this thread, your signature line was mentioned, that I used to always click on your, “Free 1,000 Souls from Purgatory,” link (I need all of their prayers, you see) and I still do now from time to time. Thank you for providing that link; do not ever get rid of it. It is much too valuable for all here! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Well, I didnt know someone nicknamed the doctrine “soul sleepers” till our friend here mentioned it.

Throughout the Bible “soul sleepers” was the understanding of the state of the dead.
I would be glad to read some texts saying that when a person dies their ‘soul’ ascends to heaven.
The only slight and mysterious reference to any concious thing ascending to heaven was what the witch of Endor told King Saul. And God strictly forbid speaking to mediums or anyone who talks to the dead, which includes dead saints, for the witch told Saul she was speaking to Prophet Samuel, when it really wasn’t. But that’s another can of worms. However, its the first reference to dead souls having any concience.

I need texts that says when we die our soul goes to God.

 

[Our_Refuge]

I need texts that says when we die our soul goes to God.

Do you agree that the early Church Fathers determined which books would be in the Bible?
They said that there were 77 inspired books. Do you agree with them.? Or do you agree with Martin Luther who decided that there were only 66 books?

 

[CentralFLJames]

BTW we’re not slinging scripture at each other just for our amusement. We’re two honest Christians who believe the Word of God gives the testimony of Christ and we’re seeking the ‘thus saith The Lord’ and not the ‘thus saith the pope’.
The Word of God is for everyone and God would have it so. The only time a church did something contrary was the Catholic church when they took Bibles away from the people saying only the priests are allowed to have them.
We’re definetly not self apointed popes. And if you don’t like that someone quotes the scriptures, then there’s nothing we can do about that.

“To the Law and to the Testimony, is they speak not according to this Word, there is no light in them” -Isaiah 8

You can’t fabricate false dichotomies between the pope and the apostolic teaching. The Catholic Church has been teaching the same message that was handed down to us from the apostles for the past 2000 years. What you are preaching is just another teaching of modern man that came into existence in the last 400 or so years. And you are also exceedingly ignorance of history if you think the Catholic Church ever took away the bible from anyone - it was the one that assembled it and spoke it every Sunday and holy day to people who could not read or write and also made it available in the limited quantities that were available.

Scripture originally had no verse and chapter numbers in them. Again, this was a latter innovation done by Catholic academics so they could study scripture - it as never intended to be publicly used in this manner though. Scripture, especially the OT was originally all one long “word” without even punctuation. It would have been considered heresy in the early church for you to sling scripture in bite size non-contextual sound bites as is your protestant tradtion here.

The Word of God perverted through “ears that do not hear” and in those who lack understanding, as you lack, is a 2 edged sword that is not intended to be wielded by babes and those who are not authorized to teach it. You can read it all you want - but come to The Church to learn what it is you read since scripture tells us:

Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Note the word “preached” - not “read”. The Catholic Church personally knew each and every apostle through the apostolic succession. St. Peter was a friend of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church knew St. Peter. You were not a friend of St. Peter. In fact no Apostolic successor ever knew you. You are no St. Peter. You are preaching a gospel different than what the apostles taught. You are under an apostolic curse for so doing that. And so are the 32,000 other protestant denominations who do the same thing and this curse is precisely why these will keep fragmenting into oblivion and all die off.

Stop preaching lies and start listening to true teaching.

The Word of God is Transferred Orally
Mark 13:31, Mark 16:15, Mark 3:14; 16:15, Luke 10:16, Luke 24:47, Acts 2:3-4, Acts 15:27, Rom. 10:8, Rom. 10:17, 1 Cor. 15:1,11, Gal. 1:11-12, Eph. 1:13, Col. 1:5, 1 Thess. 2:13. 2 Tim. 4:2,6-7, Titus 1:3. 1 Peter 1:25, 2 Peter 1:12, 15, 2 John 1:12; 3 John 13. Deut. 31:9-12, Isa. 40:8, Isa. 59:21, Joel 1:3, Mal. 2:7

Learning through Oral Apostolic Tradition
Matt. 15:3, Mark 7:9, Gal. 1:14; Col. 2:22, Acts 2:42, Acts 20:7, John 17:20, 1 Cor. 11:2, Eph. 4:20, Phil. 4:9, Col. 1:5-6, 1 Thess.1:5, 1 Thess. 4:2 , 2 Thess. 2:5. 2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6, 2 Thess. 3:7, 1 Tim. 6:20, 2 Tim. 2:2, 2 Tim. 3:14, 1 John 2:7

Examples of Jesus’ and the Apostles’ Reliance on Oral Tradition
Matt. 2:23, Matt 23:2, John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24, Acts 20:35, 1 Cor. 7:10, 1 Cor. 10:4 (See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13), Eph 5:14, Heb. 11:37, Jude 9, Jude 14-15

More here: Oral Tradition

My advise - read more talk less, get smart, become Catholic and be saved while you still have time.

James

 

[Arglaze]

I would be grateful to any protestant that can show me where in the bible in says that we are saved by faith alone
Instead I find
James 2: 24-26 “ You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2: 26 “ For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”
I been trying to find where is says that the bible is the pillar and foundation of truth.
Instead I find
1 Tim 3:15 “ if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
I keep trying to find a vesr that says that the through the bible all wisdom might be know.

But instead I find.

Eph. 3:10-14 ”To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that **through the church **the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him.

I dont remember anyone saying anything about faith only. But the scriptures you quoted are truth.
I dont have my Bible in hand, God’s pleople are easily distinguished in Revelation 12 and 14. Where it says here’s the patience of the saints, those that keep the commandments of God and have the Testimonie of Jesus.
Jesus said to study the scriptures for they give testimony of Him.

But those texts, taken out of context, are not saying that the church determines the rule of faith, they are just saying that the church preaches and declares the wisdom of God, which is Jesus.

Again, we (the church) do not tell God how he has to be worshid and understood. The Word of God tells us how He wants to be worshiped and understood.
The Bibles says “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes from the Word of God”

 

[Our_Refuge]

IAgain, we (the church) do not tell God how he has to be worshid and understood. The Word of God tells us how He wants to be worshiped and understood.
The Bibles says “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes from the Word of God”

So we are the Church? How do you arrive at such a belief. The Church is invisible.? There is no earthly authority? Such an idea would only bring chaos.That is why Jesus established a visible authoritative church.

If “we” are the Church they who is “we”? The Baptist, Mormons, Church of Christ etc? if we are the Church then we should all believe the same since "we " are guided by the Holy Spirit.

When the founding fathers of our country wrote the constitution they also established a supreme court to interpret the constitution. They established a living authority.
Are you saying that they knew more than Christ? He too established a living authority to interpret scripture and to uphold doctrine.That authority is His Church, the Catholic Church

 

[Arglaze]

Do you agree that the early Church Fathers determined which books would be in the Bible?
They said that there were 77 inspired books. Do you agree with them.? Or do you agree with Martin Luther who decided that there were only 66 books?

I dont think Martin Luther said there were only 66. The 66, unless I’m wrong are a compilation from King James.
Yes there were more inspired writings and others not inspired. I’m not qualified, nor an expert verifying their authenticity, but I believe the 66 by faith. Also because they dont contradict the Scriptures from the Old Testament (aka Torah)
Isaiah - “To the Law and Testimony, if they speak not according to this Word, there is no light in them”

Example of more books than those in the Sacred cannon.
The book of Jude quotes from Enoch, but I dont see that in the 66 book compilation we have. But it doesnt contradict anything, so I have no reason to disbelief Jude.

So sure, if you’re saying there Is more than just the 66, I cannot dissagree.

 

[Arglaze]

So we are the Church? How do you arrive at such a belief. The Church is invisible.? There is no earthly authority? Such an idea would only bring chaos.That is why Jesus established a visible authoritative church.

If “we” are the Church they who is “we”? The Baptist, Mormons, Church of Christ etc? if we are the Church then we should all believe the same since "we " are guided by the Holy Spirit.

When the founding fathers of our country wrote the constitution they also established a supreme court to interpret the constitution. They established a living authority.
Are you saying that they knew more than Christ? He too established a living authority to interpret scripture and to uphold doctrine.That authority is His Church, the Catholic Church

The Church has existed from before Jesus even came to earth. Different nicknames have been used to identify her, but she’s the same. From Genesis to Revelation.
Such as “The Children of God”, “God’s People”, Israel, Ephraim, Judah, Jews, “Nazareites Sect”, Christians, Church. They are all the same thing, and the only requirement to be a Child of God is to do what God said (the Word of God).
Study ancient Israel in the Bible, belonging to God’s church was not about ethnicity, but about following God’s word.

The term “church” came well after Jesus left. We are united in the Word of God, which is the Testimony of Jesus.
Though we call ourselves Christians, we’re actually Israelites by doing the word of God.