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StrawberryJam
Guest
Ahh, thank you. My memory is not so bad after all in this case. Would that book be a good starter for a person of no faith at all?
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Roman_Catholic_1
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Magnus467
Guest
My experiences with atheists have been horribly negative. I’m not labeling anyone, but the ones I know are EXTREMELY arrogant.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
If in your terms, those would have been granted more grace.
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La-Petite-Fleur
Guest
I can only speak for myself. As a Catholic, with someone very close to me who is an atheist, I give my honest opinion: That atheists are similar to Thomas from the Bible. He too, wanted proof and evidence. Just because all the other Apostles had seen Jesus, still didn’t make it real for him. He wanted to see- to KNOW for himself. Faith wasn’t enough. He wanted to know. I don’t believe all atheists have some beef against God or Christians, or other religious people. Sure, I think there are some out there that despise Christianity because they’ve had negative experiences with Christians. But note that I say some. I sincerely think that atheists are just looking for the truth, truth that can be seen and touched, like Thomas’ to Jesus’ side. And until then, for atheists it seems like absolutely nothing is good enough as evidence or proof, and skepticism is high. While waiting (or even not caring to care to wait) for the evidence or proof, many atheist attitudes against Christianity and other religions appear (to my perception) to be sour and disrespectful. Mockery of Christian symbols (such as the fish), attack against our God (“The Blasphemy Challenge”) it’s just rude. Some atheists don’t care whether it’s rude or not, because I’ve known some atheists think Christians have a martyr complex with having at the same time a suppressive agenda against atheism- and, I have noticed, such seems to make some atheists think it’s okay to insult an entire group of people.
As I mentioned, when I envision atheists, I see Thomas, who wanted evidence good enough for his standards. I see modern atheists setting standards that are (intentionally or unintentionally) unlikely to be fulfilled. Sorry to say, but I so notice a lot of angst, whether for valid reason or not, a lot of spite, a lot of impolite gestures (as mentioned above as a few examples) against Christians as a whole. The rude, discourteous, mockery of other religious icons and religious figures is, I find, uncivil, whatever the reason. And in my perception, it seems atheists are too skeptical, in that even if the evidence that they were looking for were presented to them, it still wouldn’t be good enough… as though they are walled off by their skepticism which is so high and vast. I perceive atheists as wanting recognition, as human beings of no religious persuasion in a religious nation (and I think atheists should be respected because they’re not inhumane or monsters as perhaps they’ve been made to feel). My guess, is that if they’re moody or angry, it’s because they’ve been bothered somehow by religion or their perception of it, (I don’t know, it’s not my intention to judge in anything I’ve mentioned, it’s just human perception). I do not exclude that for some, (note, some, maybe) a factor of their atheism is to live (so they think) as they want, without fear, hell, or sin.
If anything has been read into what I’ve mentioned above, or if I’ve misrepresented how I perceive atheists, all I mean is this: That I don’t see atheists as evil, or as monsters, or as inhumane… I see them as searching for the truth, with the possibility that some (whatever fraction, perhaps a small fraction) see it as freedom from sin and its guilt, or a separation from the religious people or religion(s) they detest. And some may have grown up in atheist families. But mostly I see them as Thomas. Just Thomas.
As I mentioned, when I envision atheists, I see Thomas, who wanted evidence good enough for his standards. I see modern atheists setting standards that are (intentionally or unintentionally) unlikely to be fulfilled. Sorry to say, but I so notice a lot of angst, whether for valid reason or not, a lot of spite, a lot of impolite gestures (as mentioned above as a few examples) against Christians as a whole. The rude, discourteous, mockery of other religious icons and religious figures is, I find, uncivil, whatever the reason. And in my perception, it seems atheists are too skeptical, in that even if the evidence that they were looking for were presented to them, it still wouldn’t be good enough… as though they are walled off by their skepticism which is so high and vast. I perceive atheists as wanting recognition, as human beings of no religious persuasion in a religious nation (and I think atheists should be respected because they’re not inhumane or monsters as perhaps they’ve been made to feel). My guess, is that if they’re moody or angry, it’s because they’ve been bothered somehow by religion or their perception of it, (I don’t know, it’s not my intention to judge in anything I’ve mentioned, it’s just human perception). I do not exclude that for some, (note, some, maybe) a factor of their atheism is to live (so they think) as they want, without fear, hell, or sin.
If anything has been read into what I’ve mentioned above, or if I’ve misrepresented how I perceive atheists, all I mean is this: That I don’t see atheists as evil, or as monsters, or as inhumane… I see them as searching for the truth, with the possibility that some (whatever fraction, perhaps a small fraction) see it as freedom from sin and its guilt, or a separation from the religious people or religion(s) they detest. And some may have grown up in atheist families. But mostly I see them as Thomas. Just Thomas.
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GEddie
Guest
I HAVE met atheists, and I have to say they don’t much impress me intellectually. For the most part, the atheists I have known have either been amateur philosophers showing off the modicum of ideas they have swallowed; or people who reject God because of some suffering in their past (“God didn’t hold my hand when I was hurting; therefore he’s not there”). One exception: a man who was raised in an atheist family, rather rare ISTM.
To me, an atheist is someone who just has different religious beliefs than I. (Honestly, one should admit, atheism is a religion; it must be taken on faith, since we can never know enough about existence to disprove God.) As such, I would never call them Devils’ children or any other such insult, nor would any Catholic I know.
Anyone who is an atheist will learn the truth when they go to Purgatory. But believers will almost certainly go there ourselves for other reasons. No need at all for selfrighteousness.
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Tezza
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Depends on the Catholic and on the athiest 
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Wowbagger
Guest
Never?
Well, I assure you, most of the people I know are atheists or, at best, agnostics (on the average, though, I prefer atheists). I am a young computer scientist; our field has always been dominated by materialist determinism and, thus, rabid atheism. Rest assured that they exist!
Now, to answer the OP: the question is, as others have said, impossible to answer, because every Catholic reacts differently to every atheist. Our Church’s official position is that freedom of religion, including atheism, is a fundamental human right, and, furthermore, that a person can honestly hold the position. (A pretty large portion of Protestantism disagrees. They believe that anyone who isn’t Christian is being deliberately ignorant, and therefore evil. That’s where you get people using names like “the devil’s children.” Some of that’s leaked into Catholicism.) Rome also teaches that atheism is a fundamentally flawed position, whose errors can be illuminated by human reason, and that right reason in an honest intellect will ineveitably be drawn back to Catholicism as it learns new things and engages new philosophical ideas. It teaches that there are honest atheists, who have arrived at atheism (for now) through serious intellectual engagement, and they’re okay dudes (though atheism may lead them down very dangerous paths). It also teaches that there are dishonest atheists, who rejected God for selfish reasons and are just trying to convince themselves He doesn’t exist even though deep down they know He does. Dishonest atheists are committing a serious sin. And it teaches that there are many atheists who never really engaged the ideas, who either left the Church out of anger against individuals (“I might have been a Christian if I hadn’t known so many.” --Gandhi) or against institutions that failed (people who left over the sex abuse scandal), or simply because they grew up in a secularizing culture and were never taught one good reason why they should believe that any of this Church stuff is true (95% of young people who leave Catholicism fall into this category). This last group is somewhat responsible for their atheism, but there are also a lot of other people–other Christians, who should have been living the Gospel and teaching the Truth and failed–who are responsible for it.
So the official stance is a nuanced one.
Personally, many of my friends don’t believe in God. I find the reasons they give inane, but, then, most of them have gone to Catholic school for fifteen years and never learned a gorram thing about why Catholics believe what they believe. So how can I blame them for leaving what–to them–looks irrational? Anyhow, they’re nice people, and I find it much easier to get along with an atheist, who typically believes in reason, than an average Protestant, who typically believes either in sola scriptura (if evangelical), or, worse, “faith for faith’s sake” or “the power of love” or some other crud like that that basically boils down to, “I believe whatever makes me feel good! Wheeeee!” (if mainline).
However, I have also found that a lot of jerks become atheists as a way to annoy their parents. So there are a lot of hugely obnxious people out there who shout at me about how stupid I am for believing in religion, which would be laughable (because the loudest, most arrogant atheists usually have the most fatuous arguments, and yes I’m looking at you Mr. Dawkins), if they weren’t so incredibly annoying.
The worst is when one of those loser atheists end up in a locked room with a sola scriptura Protestant. The atheist is determined to provoke the Protestant and usually pulls it off–not through argument, but just by being a jerk. The Protestant retaliates with Scripture quotes, and we’re off to the races. I hate that. A lot.
So, long story short, I like some atheists and despise others. Pretty much how I view everybody.
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j1akey
Guest
I was going to just sit back and watch this thread contintue because I think the responses are pretty good but for this I must respectfully disagree with you here.
Firstly it takes more than faith or lack of faith to make a religion. I don’t believe in Santa Clause and I also can’t disprove the existence of good ol’ Santa but does that mean that my lack of belief in Santa is a religion because I have to take it on faith that he’s not real? Of course not. You can say they’re two different things but in reality only the object of my lack of belief has changed but I’m not sure if you’ll agree with me on that one. Basically no matter how many times I hear this argument it comes down to lack of religion = religion and that’s just not the case no matter how you spin it.
Everyone takes many things on faith every day. I have faith that I’m going to have a job tomorrow, I have faith that my family is home when I get there, I have faith that a meteor isn’t going to smash into the earth and wipe us all out tomorrow, I have faith that my government isn’t going to screw up my country but none of these translate into religion. How then does lack of faith in God translate into a religion by itself? Taking anything on faith no matter what it is doen not make a religion all by itself.
Many people have also told me this exact same thing and I can’t figure it out, I really can’t. Faith that there is no God = religion. Faith that there is no Santa Clause <> religion.
My lack of religion is actually a religion because I have to take it on faith that something doesn’t exist. But if that’s the case then EVERYTHING is a religion because you can’t really disprove that anything doesn’t exist.Now I do realize that saying that is kind of going to extremes and obviously most people don’t believe in santa clause and no one would argue with you if you said he doesn’t exist. But if lack of faith = religion becaue lack of faith in fact = faith then someone needs to define why faith or lack of in one thing = religion but the same isn’t true for other things. The arguement for it just goes in circle and I don’t see how it holds up. Basically what you’re doing is playing the words to fit what you want them to mean.
If we take the definition of faith and religion from Websters Dictionary we get this:
Faith
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one’s promises (2): sincerity of intentions
2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Religion
1 a: the state of a religious (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
So looking at these you could technically say faith = belief in god = religion = faith which makes you technically correct in your statement but only when taking it out context when put next to an atheist.
And atheist doesn’t believe in god and has no religion but if we have to take it on faith that he doesn’t exist and since faith = religion then we must be a religion. It completely contraticts itself. You have to think in the context what what is being said. You can make anything mean anything when taken out of context.
And yes I realize I sort of contradicted myself in this post as well and that’s just how confusing the whole thing is. The more I think about it I think the whole “atheism is a religion” statement is meant to be confusing for that exact reason. Technically you’re right, but only IF you go off the strictest definition of the words, but at the same time so very wrong when you put it into context. And it’s late. It’s goes in circles so much I’m just repeating myself at this point and I don’t even realize it.
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
I have never met someone who identified themself as an atheist.
I know a lot of agnostics, but I have never known someone to say, “there is no God”
I rank atheists up there with the the flying spaghetti monster in that I no longer believe that they exist. I have never seen one with my own eyes. I have not been able to observe and or deduce anything from one so therefore I, logically, believe that they do not exist
God bless
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spauline
Guest
actually, this is more accurate, and I need to apologize for that thread that was deleted that implied all atheists are culpable and utterly devoid of any goodness.
I should also clarify that in saying a person is a “devil’s child” is not meant to be hateful, nor that any one of us could ever label any one any condition on a personal level. This is expressing theory in God’s eyes. God alone knows the hearts of individuals, and whether, in being an atheist or relativist or secular messianist, it is because of veritable mortal sin, or innocent ignorance, or wounds, such as scandal or the problem of suffering.
If a person truly is in the temporary condition of “devil’s child” [sheer pride and arrogant superficiality before God], not that any Catholic could ever know this [we only judge actions, not subjective motives], we would not hate that person but love them, and pray for them.
I tend to think the primary cause of atheism is the problem of human suffering, to which I believe Catholicism gives the most positive response: The just person who endures suffering that cannot be legitimately alleviated can unite his suffering with Christ’s and offer it for the Redemption of others. In that way, no suffering is wasted.
But without this mystery, the incomprehensible suffering of the innocent in this world could lead a person to atheism innocently.
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a_priori
Guest
I personally think we are all on a journey. I don’t think people can will themselves to believe something. I’ve always been struck by the phrase “required to believe” as if it were 100% volitional. (Although the father of a boy that Christ healed said "I believe, help my unbelief.- Mark 9:24) A person who arrives at atheism out of an intellectual honesty has my respect for having made the effort. But people who sort of “back into” atheism by deciding that they wish a certain lifestyle first and then intellectually remove all impediments to that lifestyle, do not have my respect. The notion of God and its implications are an impediment to many. (I’m not speaking about lifestyles such as homosexuality specifically but really anything that religion might speak against.)
People who become atheists because they don’t like Christians have a weak argument also, IMHO.
Anyone who seeks truth and comes to the conclusion that there is no God should not, IMO, be derided for for it. As a Christian, I believe there are implications to being an atheist but I have no right to disrespect them unless their actions hurt others and degrade society. That’s my two cents.
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GodIsGracious
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I don’t hate atheists. I think that it’s sad and they have regressed backwards by not believing in God. (Of course, atheists have said they think people who believe in God have regressed backwards.)
When I was atheist or agnostic for a time my whole world was flat. I have also found that every single atheist that I have met (I’m not saying all atheists, just all of those I have met) I have yet to meet one who doesn’t bring up God or religion first. I actually find that both amusing and annoying at the same time. They’ll bring it up in casual conversation before anyone else has said anything and it is to make fun of people who believe in God or have a religion. In fact, I don’t even talk about religion or God except to my boyfriend and on these forums.
The way I look at it is like this: life is like a picture in Adobe Photoshop. Where there are several layers to it. Catholics get ALL the layers. Atheists, it’s like you’ve used the “flatten image” function. Sure you see the picture, but you never have access to each layer and examine it for it’s beauty or horror. You don’t get to understand how the picture is created, and there are aspects to the picture that are missing.
Plus also I firmly believe there are no atheists in foxholes.
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Newbie2
Guest
True.Depends on the Catholic and on the athiest
There are some atheists who are comfortable where they are spiritually, and pretty much leave everyone else alone.
There are some who are questioning where they are, and questioning religion in an attempt to find their comfort zone.
There are some who are, as has been said, “anti-theists”, who mock and condemn theists.
I view them all as lacking spiritual truth, and perhaps the anti-theists as controlled by Satan.
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Augie1530
Guest
I think the late Bishop Sheen said this about ATHIESTS and its a good understanding of them " An athiest is a person with out any invisible means of support"
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rinnie
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I don’t think anyone can speak for any religion. Just for themself. Only God can speak on behalf of the Church and his leaders that are in charge. But speaking for the RCC faith I can tell you what the Church teaches. We are to Love one another as the Lord has loved you. Hate is not in the faith. Only forgiveness and turn the other cheek as Christ did.
As far as the bible says you are either with me or you are against me.
IT says that anyone that listens to God belongs to God. Anyone who does not belong to God refuse to hear us. This is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.
No one has every seen God yet if we love one another God remains in us and his love is brought to perfection in us.
God is Love and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment and so one who fears is not yet perfect in Love.
Whoever believes in the SOn of GOd has testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about the son.
Whoever possess the Son has life who ever does not possess th Son of God does not have life.
That pretty much sums it up. I have been asked prove God. You just heard how we do. God is love is we love one another thats our proof of God. If we hate eachoher we have proof that God is not in us.
So anyone who says they do not know God do not know Love. Anyone who says they do indeed Know love knows God. Its really as simple as that,
If you love, show that love thats God. If you hate, are jealous, you deny God and are of the devil.
God is not the words we use, or the books we read, God is our actions. If we love God we will imitate him, we will be kind, love, help eachother and do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.
So do I hate people who do not accept God, no. But I wish they would. Because I do not want to be hated by people I want to be loved. And I do not want to hate people I want to love them. So thats it. Simple and Easy. So you want proof of God, Do you know Love. Really know what it feels like to Love someone, or have them Love you. Then there you Go. You know God. If you have never felt loved, or never truly loved someone then you have never had proof of God.
Next important thing Do you want love then you want God. Do you want hate, then you reject God.
May God shine his love on each and every one of us today. And bring back all of our lost brothers and sisters and let them feel the love God has for them. And the love we have for eachother in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.
As far as the bible says you are either with me or you are against me.
IT says that anyone that listens to God belongs to God. Anyone who does not belong to God refuse to hear us. This is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.
No one has every seen God yet if we love one another God remains in us and his love is brought to perfection in us.
God is Love and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment and so one who fears is not yet perfect in Love.
Whoever believes in the SOn of GOd has testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about the son.
Whoever possess the Son has life who ever does not possess th Son of God does not have life.
That pretty much sums it up. I have been asked prove God. You just heard how we do. God is love is we love one another thats our proof of God. If we hate eachoher we have proof that God is not in us.
So anyone who says they do not know God do not know Love. Anyone who says they do indeed Know love knows God. Its really as simple as that,
If you love, show that love thats God. If you hate, are jealous, you deny God and are of the devil.
God is not the words we use, or the books we read, God is our actions. If we love God we will imitate him, we will be kind, love, help eachother and do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.
So do I hate people who do not accept God, no. But I wish they would. Because I do not want to be hated by people I want to be loved. And I do not want to hate people I want to love them. So thats it. Simple and Easy. So you want proof of God, Do you know Love. Really know what it feels like to Love someone, or have them Love you. Then there you Go. You know God. If you have never felt loved, or never truly loved someone then you have never had proof of God.
Next important thing Do you want love then you want God. Do you want hate, then you reject God.
May God shine his love on each and every one of us today. And bring back all of our lost brothers and sisters and let them feel the love God has for them. And the love we have for eachother in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
Was yours a serious answer?
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cheese_sdc
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lopezby
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I agree with a priori. Perhaps this is one of the Lord’s ways of demonstrating to us that faith is indeed a gift,…via such a contrast.
However, I have someone in my family that has rejected the faith as a result of much suffering. It’s like his way of saying “Fine, You don’t want to help me…I just won’t believe in You”. I have little respect (but much compassion), for this sort of intellectual dishonesty. I have a feeling that in these cases, these folks aren’t authentic atheists or agnostics, but perhaps just very resentful. I’m disappointed with this guy, and sometimes get tempted to anger, but I try to remind myself that ‘but by the grace of God, there go I’.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
To my thinking emotions are just as important part of a person’s self as intellect.
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