How do catholics really view us Atheists?

[CJ_Nick]

I’m really curious to know without it being sugar coated. I’ve seen alot of what seems to me like hate mongering on various threads and posts and I want to know if that’s the way the average catholic or christian feels. The more I read the more I see things like “the devils children” or some such thing. Really? Just because we don’t believe in a god? Are we that hated? Not that I believe there’s a devil either but I don’t have to believe there’s a devil to get the point in that statement.

I’m not trying to start a flame war or anything, I’d just really like to know how we’re percieved and why.

Hello 1akey

An interesting thread ( Do we Catholics hate Atheists )
My perspective is that there are some Catholics who ( not sure I would label it hate ) very much dislike, judge, and indeed mock many Atheists, Protestants, Muslims, Jw’s, etc, etc. To be clear, some of us even dislike other Catholics who sit next to us in the pew.

I guess what I am trying to offer is that the " human " factor is certainly alive and well in ALL of our collective interactions. It is my humble opinion that we ALL have bias, personal history, experiences and individual journeys that we continue to be on that largly influence our treatment of others who walk this Earth together. In addition, we are all broken sinners who become threatened and or challenged by others who may have a different belief than the one we have.

At any rate, speaking as just one broken Catholic, I do not hate ( or dislike ) you because you are Atheist, I simply and with great respect disagree with you.

Peace,
CJ

 

[mrhenrik]

I’ve literally never heard atheists called the devil’s children. The Internet is a crazy place.

Annabea was named that in her thread in this sub-forum, actually. I’ll see if I can find the link for you.

 

[Pug]

I’m really curious to know without it being sugar coated. I’ve seen alot of what seems to me like hate mongering on various threads and posts and I want to know if that’s the way the average catholic or christian feels. The more I read the more I see things like “the devils children” or some such thing. Really? Just because we don’t believe in a god? Are we that hated? Not that I believe there’s a devil either but I don’t have to believe there’s a devil to get the point in that statement.

I’m not trying to start a flame war or anything, I’d just really like to know how we’re percieved and why.

For most people that I encounter, I don’t know what religion they have chosen, if any. I assume I know some Atheists currently, but I also think in most cases I won’t be aware that they are atheists. I could in fact tend to interact with atheists in a set way, but be unaware of it.

When I do encounter a known atheist, I respond differently to each one, and it is likely mostly determined by what they choose to say and do, although I typically will behave according to all my usual habits, which are generally the same with everyone. Some Atheists are decidedly annoying, pestering one with questions about immovable objects and unstoppable forces. But that is not totally unexpected. Some Christians are decidedly annoying, pestering one with questions about if you die today, will you go to heaven, etc.

If you ask me what I think about Atheists, well, they are people, potential friends, just like anyone else.

 

[GEddie]

To my thinking emotions are just as important part of a person’s self as intellect.

No one said they weren’t. But one should not claim “truth” on the basis of feeling.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t think anyone can speak for any religion. Just for themself. Only God can speak on behalf of the Church and his leaders that are in charge. But speaking for the RCC faith I can tell you what the Church teaches. We are to Love one another as the Lord has loved you. Hate is not in the faith. Only forgiveness and turn the other cheek as Christ did.

As far as the bible says you are either with me or you are against me.

IT says that anyone that listens to God belongs to God. Anyone who does not belong to God refuse to hear us. This is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

No one has every seen God yet if we love one another God remains in us and his love is brought to perfection in us.

God is Love and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment and so one who fears is not yet perfect in Love.

Whoever believes in the SOn of GOd has testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about the son.

Whoever possess the Son has life who ever does not possess th Son of God does not have life.

That pretty much sums it up. I have been asked prove God. You just heard how we do. God is love is we love one another thats our proof of God. If we hate eachoher we have proof that God is not in us.

So anyone who says they do not know God do not know Love. Anyone who says they do indeed Know love knows God. Its really as simple as that,

If you love, show that love thats God. If you hate, are jealous, you deny God and are of the devil.

God is not the words we use, or the books we read, God is our actions. If we love God we will imitate him, we will be kind, love, help eachother and do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.

So do I hate people who do not accept God, no. But I wish they would. Because I do not want to be hated by people I want to be loved. And I do not want to hate people I want to love them. So thats it. Simple and Easy. So you want proof of God, Do you know Love. Really know what it feels like to Love someone, or have them Love you. Then there you Go. You know God. If you have never felt loved, or never truly loved someone then you have never had proof of God.

Next important thing Do you want love then you want God. Do you want hate, then you reject God.

May God shine his love on each and every one of us today. And bring back all of our lost brothers and sisters and let them feel the love God has for them. And the love we have for eachother in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.

For the person who never heard that anyone who denys God does not have the spirit of truth but the spirit of deceit does not know who the Spirit of truth is of the Spirit of deceit,

The Spirit of Truth is Jesus Christ. The spirit of deceit is the devil. Plan and simple. So if the person who never heard that if you deny God you are of the devil read the bible. Its in there. That is who the Spirit of deceit is indeed the devil. The evil spirit. Sorry if you don;t like the words or the truth but thats what the bible says.

 

[Dranu]

Well here is something of a more official Catholic stance (as you know the personal catholic position is not always the ‘Catholic’ position and can often contradict it):
Catechism of the Catholic Church(my underline):

**Atheism **
2123 “Many . . . of our contemporaries either do not at all perceive, or explicitly reject, this intimate and vital bond of man to God. Atheism must therefore be regarded as one of the most serious problems of our time.”[58]

2124 The name “atheism” covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time. Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be “an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history.”[59] Another form of contemporary atheism looks for the liberation of man through economic and social liberation. “It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man’s hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better form of life on earth.”[60]

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.[61] The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. “Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion.”[62]

2126 Atheism is often based on a false conception of human autonomy, exaggerated to the point of refusing any dependence on God.[63] Yet, “to acknowledge God is in no way to oppose the dignity of man, since such dignity is grounded and brought to perfection in God…”[64] “For the Church knows full well that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart.”[65]

**Agnosticism **
2127 Agnosticism assumes a number of forms. In certain cases the agnostic refrains from denying God; instead he postulates the existence of a transcendent being which is incapable of revealing itself, and about which nothing can be said. In other cases, the agnostic makes no judgment about God’s existence, declaring it impossible to prove, or even to affirm or deny.

2128 Agnosticism can sometimes include a certain search for God, but it can equally express indifferentism, a flight from the ultimate question of existence, and a sluggish moral conscience. Agnosticism is all too often equivalent to practical atheism.

As for one’s culpability in this, that would require some reading into the teachings of sin (also can be found in the Catechism).

My personal opinion is that the typical atheist does not really deep down believe their position but is typically emotionally attached to it rather than rationally so. Also my experience with atheists suggests most are well educated (in modern terms), but really seem to severely lack applied critical/logical thinking to this aspect of life (even if they are very capable of doing so). I think this is likely due to most of the foundations of their belief being purely emotional, and a will to assume anything opposite as illogical before engaging it rationally (i.e. without being ruled by the emotional baggage).

Also pride (as the Catechism seems to suggest) is a prominent quality I find in many self-proclaimed atheist (whether they are truly culpable of this pride or not), and I believe it to be a source of the emotional atheism. One who is beset by the temptation of pride will find any pain or difficulty in their life as a sign of the absence of an omnibenevolant God, because (in the prideful mind) if they think any pain or evil is unnecessary/contradictory with omnibenevolance, then ‘it must be’. I was something of this brand once, and melded it with the ‘natural scientific (laughable to call it that) atheism’ saying that ‘all could be explained by material empirical science (extremely laughable for think of non-empirical physics and pure rationality)’

So three things in closing:
**1.) **We all sin, and we cannot judge others culpability in it. They are to be loved (as Christ did).
2.) If one says ‘I do goodness for goodness sake’ (and actually means this), I equate this to a theist logically. One only has to examine what the word ‘good’ unqualified means to understand it is God (examine logic or read Plato , etc.)
**3.) **Many who claim to be theist are perhaps not (just like the atheist).

 

[Dranu]

a priori:

A person who arrives at atheism out of an intellectual honesty has my respect for having made the effort. But people who sort of “back into” atheism by deciding that they wish a certain lifestyle first and then intellectually remove all impediments to that lifestyle, do not have my respect. The notion of God and its implications are an impediment to many.

Wise words IMO. I think it really comes down to this often:

-one ought to will/love for Good unqualified, for otherwise you will imperfection (thus I should think, evil). I think if one does this, you are not likely to go wrong. But what human actually does such a thing (reminds us of our poor condition) save Jesus (and Mary).

 

[mrhenrik]

An interesting quote Dranu, thanks for posting.

 

[kalt]

I’m really curious to know without it being sugar coated. I’ve seen alot of what seems to me like hate mongering on various threads and posts and I want to know if that’s the way the average catholic or christian feels. The more I read the more I see things like “the devils children” or some such thing. Really? Just because we don’t believe in a god? Are we that hated? Not that I believe there’s a devil either but I don’t have to believe there’s a devil to get the point in that statement.

I’m not trying to start a flame war or anything, I’d just really like to know how we’re percieved and why.

Are you sure you want the salty version?

I don’t view atheists in any particular way. I don’t think about “them” at all, actually.

It makes no difference to me what an atheist believes or doesn’t believe.

I wonder, though, why atheists post here. They’ve claimed that is to gain an understanding of what Catholics believe and why they believe it, but when you read the threads, it seems clear that the atheists are here to tell everyone what they think and why they think it. They’re not here to understand but to be understood.

And I’m at a loss as to why they feel the need to tell Catholics what they think, and why they think we’re interested. Why do they need to be understood by Caholics? And why do they care what we think of them and what they believe?

 

[mrhenrik]

I wonder, though, why atheists post here. They’ve claimed that is to gain an understanding of what Catholics believe and why they believe it, but when you read the threads, it seems clear that the atheists are here to tell everyone what they think and why they think it. They’re not here to understand but to be understood.

I can’t speak for all atheists, because frankly all atheists have in common is the lack of belief in a god, but I am here to understand the catholic faith, to learn what it explains and what it doesn’t and more importantly how it explains it, I want to learn why people believe what it teaches and how it differs from my former religion, christian protestantism.

And I’m at a loss as to why they feel the need to tell Catholics what they think, and why they think we’re interested. Why do they need to be understood by Caholics? And why do they care what we think of them and what they believe?

I would assume most catholics are not interested in what athiests think, just as a large part of atheists probably don’t lend an ear to catholic thoughts either, but if you don’t want to hear it’s easy to shut your ears on a forum.

Besides, to learn of the catholic faith, it is necessary to present scientific theories and hear how catholicism counters them, where it’s limitations are and what it’s advantages might be. I have learned a lot since coming here three days ago at least.

Why I care what you think of me? There are a lot of religious people in the world, and some of them are very negative against atheism. I think it’s important to learn why this is so we can work together without for instance a catholic saying that he refuses to work with me because I’m clearly rooting for the devil.

 

[rinnie]

Are you sure you want the salty version?

I don’t view atheists in any particular way. I don’t think about “them” at all, actually.

It makes no difference to me what an atheist believes or doesn’t believe.

I wonder, though, why atheists post here. They’ve claimed that is to gain an understanding of what Catholics believe and why they believe it, but when you read the threads, it seems clear that the atheists are here to tell everyone what they think and why they think it. They’re not here to understand but to be understood.

And I’m at a loss as to why they feel the need to tell Catholics what they think, and why they think we’re interested. Why do they need to be understood by Caholics? And why do they care what we think of them and what they believe?

Is that not the Truth! I mean its not like we ask or want to know why anyone would even want to reject God. They say they want to learn, but they won’t even pick up a bible and read. If anyone really wants to learn, Pick up a bible and try to start there. Then try going to a place called Church. Thats probally a better place to start. I am sure a PRiest can do a heck of alot better. And can give you the true teachings of God. They have the gift of the Holy Spirit to teach better then we ever can. For us, like Kalt said we could care less what you believe or why. But we are taught to love everyone and pray for everyone. But we are not taught to have to sit and listen why you choose to reject God.

 

[mrhenrik]

Is that not the Truth! I mean its not like we ask or want to know why anyone would even want to reject God. They say they want to learn, but they won’t even pick up a bible and read. If anyone really wants to learn, Pick up a bible and try to start there. Then try going to a place called Church. Thats probally a better place to start. I am sure a PRiest can do a heck of alot better. And can give you the true teachings of God.

I have read the Bible at least once - now I’m working on Genesis but it takes it’s time. I have also gone to Church several times, in fact I worked there for a year as a – not sure of the term, but I assisted the priest during the ceremony and read from scripture.

 

[rinnie]

I have read the Bible at least once - now I’m working on Genesis but it takes it’s time. I have also gone to Church several times, in fact I worked there for a year as a – not sure of the term, but I assisted the priest during the ceremony and read from scripture.

Then Please go back to that Priest. Or find another Priest that can help you. Its just that it is so hard to find who is really wanting help in thier search and who is just here to condemn. Forgive me if I sound un- Christianlike but these always end up ugly.

Do this, try some books of Scott Hahn. He has such a way of explaining thing in our language. See if maybe he can show you something that we can’t. Sometimes one can show what others cannot. I wish I had the wisdom or words to express to you what God has done for me. But if you did work in the Church as you say, and was in the living presense of God in the Mass and still got nothing out of it. I am at a loss for words thats all. I can promise you one thing, if you want God you can have him. But you will not fool him thats for sure. I want to thank you for one thing. You showed me one thing, that I am so lucky to have the Dad I did who not only taught me my faith but lived it. A Mother who also showed me the way. And a God that took me into his heart when I was unworthy and made me feel like a Child of God. I want so so bad for you to feel that. That you are a Child of God. If you can know that you are a child of God and that he is your Father you need nothing in this world. Thats enough. God Bless you and keep you in this journey. Please let me know if ever you do come to the faith. That would be a million dollar lotta winning day for me.

 

[mrhenrik]

Then Please go back to that Priest. Or find another Priest that can help you. Its just that it is so hard to find who is really wanting help in thier search and who is just here to condemn. Forgive me if I sound un- Christianlike but these always end up ugly.

Technically I don’t want help as in help to return to faith, but I wish to learn more of it.

Do this, try some books of Scott Hahn. He has such a way of explaining thing in our language. See if maybe he can show you something that we can’t. Sometimes one can show what others cannot. I wish I had the wisdom or words to express to you what God has done for me. But if you did work in the Church as you say, and was in the living presense of God in the Mass and still got nothing out of it. I am at a loss for words thats all. I can promise you one thing, if you want God you can have him.

I really did want god. I prayed often, I worked in the church, defended my faith in discussions very much like this one, and tried to be a good christian. Heh, I even had plans of a cross-tattoo. Suffice to say I’m glad I didn’t. ;p

But you will not fool him thats for sure. I want to thank you for one thing. You showed me one thing, that I am so lucky to have the Dad I did who not only taught me my faith but lived it. A Mother who also showed me the way. And a God that took me into his heart when I was unworthy and made me feel like a Child of God. I want so so bad for you to feel that.

I am raised in a christian family, my mother would often take me to church. She taught me to pray, introduced me to people in the church and generally raised me in christianity. My family often went on trips with the communion My father would also join us to church etc, but I believe he has some traces of agnosticism/atheism in him, although he would never tell. He is a sceptic on every other “supernatural” thing than christianity though, so why not that as well.

Please let me know if ever you do come to the faith. That would be a million dollar lotta winning day for me.

Hehe. I honestly doubt this will ever happen, but I have bookmarked the link to a private message to you just in case.

 

[Dranu]

I am interested on the reasons you converted to atheism (only if you don’t mind sharing, or even as a PM). I have converted both ways myself (admittedly my cradle protestant Christianity was perhaps never a full conviction on my part to begin with.)

 

[mrhenrik]

I posted my “story” here.

 

[Dranu]

Thanks Mrhenrik, I took a look at it. Seems you might of left religion for the same reasons I did a while back. If you care to read on and learn from my experience go ahead. I think exploring the questions will at least help you understand what we Catholics might think:

So, how would you answer these questions (I do not expect any response here, just things to muse on with as much inward honesty and desire for truth as you can muster)?:

1.) What is goodness? *(and don’t answer how I may come to recognize goodness, but rather what it is I am recognizing if anything)*2.) What is truth and what makes something true?
3.) Why is everything here? -if you give an answer such as the theory that was discovered by a Catholic priest’s study on Einstein’s theories much to Einstein’s dismay (the Big Bang), I would ask how did that start, and so on until you gave me an answer that logically explained itself (no a vicious circle)
4.) What is love? (similar to #1, don’t answer how I may come to love or why it is beneficial, but rather ask what it is regardless of the processes that may allow us to experience it).
5.) Can you actually spell out your logical reasons for rejecting Christianity? how about theism in General? Why is it absurd?
**6.) **If science seems to be your answer to 5, does science really say anything that would logically necessitate it being at odds with theism or is there possible a false conflict (that popular opinion often sees) between the two?

As for Dawkin’s book, where he gives a logical argument rather than rhetoric they are typically of straw men. Through your desire to learn about what we Catholics think, you will come to see that what Dawkins says does not accurately refute our (maybe others) beliefs. I hear very good things about him as a biologist, but** in regards to philosophy** above the empirical sciences, and me being somewhat versed in such a field (I only have an undergrad in philosophy mind you), I must say he is rather poor. In fact, sometime his reasoning is so bad (such as the 747 gambit thing) that he is not even addressing the issue of God, even though he thinks he is. Rather he is addressing some concept of some really powerful contingent arbiter that may ‘sit up in clouds’ or something. Ahhh, but enough on ol’ Dawkins.

The desire you have to learn is a very healthy thing. Especially when it is the desire to learn of the human end (or what people may call the human end). May I recommend a secular philosopher? If so, I recommend picking up an old book by Plato called ‘the Republic’ and seriously consider what he said (perhaps by means of trying to honestly refute it if you don’t 100% agree with him). See if what he says seems reasonable, and be charitable in your reading of him (don’t make rash generalizations, like I might, and dismiss everything he says because he may say one thing wrong).

Have a good one friend

 

[kalt]

I can’t speak for all atheists, because frankly all atheists have in common is the lack of belief in a god, but I am here to understand the catholic faith, to learn what it explains and what it doesn’t and more importantly how it explains it, I want to learn why people believe what it teaches and how it differs from my former religion, christian protestantism.

I would assume most catholics are not interested in what athiests think, just as a large part of atheists probably don’t lend an ear to catholic thoughts either, but if you don’t want to hear it’s easy to shut your ears on a forum.

Besides, to learn of the catholic faith, it is necessary to present scientific theories and hear how catholicism counters them, where it’s limitations are and what it’s advantages might be. I have learned a lot since coming here three days ago at least.

Why I care what you think of me? There are a lot of religious people in the world, and some of them are very negative against atheism. I think it’s important to learn why this is so we can work together without for instance a catholic saying that he refuses to work with me because I’m clearly rooting for the devil.

And here is another example of your wanting to tell us what you think. You’ve already decided that science and the Catholic faith are necessarily opposed. Why would Catholicism counter proven scientific theories?

You last paragraph clearly illustrates what I wrote. It’s not about your wanting to understand us, but is about your wanting us to understand and accept you.

I still can’t imagine why and atheist cares. I certainly don’t care what a non-Catholic thinks about my faith. If they think I’m a moron for being Catholic, so be it. I know I’m right, so their opinion is irrelevant.

Why isn’t a Catholic’s opinion on science (sine you think the two are opposed) and atheism irrelevant to you. If you know you’re right, what difference does it make if a bunch of people who are following a God that doesn’t exist don’t agree with your opinion?

Would you care so much if the bunch of people who killed themselves after following a man who told them he was Jesus (or was it simply God) thought you were wrong about the existance of god and science? I can’t imagine that you would. Those people were deluded.

Aren’t we a bunch of cultists who believe in things that don’t exist? Heaven, Hell, God, Angels, Saints and Miracles are just a few of the things we believe in. Surely you don’t believe in them. So why care what a bunch of miracle-seeking, psalm-singing people who pray to somethng that doesn’t exist and who think they’ll live forever in Heaven if they don’t wind up in Hell, think?

 

[mrhenrik]

Both good posts, unfortunately I don’t have the time to make a proper reply today - I’m off to a partyish event with my colleagues. I’ll try to reply tomorrow.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I still can’t imagine why and atheist cares. I certainly don’t care what a non-Catholic thinks about my faith. If they think I’m a moron for being Catholic, so be it. I know I’m right, so their opinion is irrelevant.

You were not replying to me, but when I read this I wanted to ask you something. Why would you think athiests or agnostics think you are a moron for being Catholic? If my christian friends thought that I considered their faith to make them morons, I don’t think we would be friends.

Would you care so much if the bunch of people who killed themselves after following a man who told them he was Jesus (or was it simply God) thought you were wrong about the existance of god and science? I can’t imagine that you would. Those people were deluded.

Aren’t we a bunch of cultists who believe in things that don’t exist?

It depends on how you define cult, even on this site I have seen that word used in two ways. One way seems to be meant in a positive way and the other is meant to define christian fringe groups.

Heaven, Hell, God, Angels, Saints and Miracles are just a few of the things we believe in.

No argument there.

Surely you don’t believe in them. So why care what a bunch of miracle-seeking, psalm-singing people who pray to somethng that doesn’t exist and who think they’ll live forever in Heaven if they don’t wind up in Hell, think?

If only it was so simple. We all must live together in this world no matter what we believe or don’t. Surely you like to believe things that are true, and not false? If you encountered a person who thought you were wishing for their demise, wouldn’t you like to tell them they were wrong for thinking that?