How do churches that claim to follow scripture justify supporting SSM?
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I agree having the Magesterium works great for those who have a need to have or feel more at ease having their matters of faith in a greater degree of black and white. But of course one must have faith in it and in what they are told in order for it to work for them. I’m just however more of the ilk who doesn’t like matters of faith being so concrete and set in stone. I actually prefer more of an open box and some ambiguity. Not that there isn’t ultimate truth of course. But I just don’t see how any human being can even begin to think they know without having some degree of faith. I know I haven’t found one yet who can believe so without additionally having some faith.
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ltwin
Guest
Well, the simple answer is that those Protestant denominations are not seriously concerned with justifying same-sex marriage in Scriptural ways. Sola Scriptura was abandoned by the Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Evangelical Lutherans a many decades ago. The mainline churches consider Scripture just one authority among several, including human wisdom/reason (which would include questioning the teachings of Scripture according to your own sense of right and wrong).
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
Hey!!!
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Doormouse
Guest
how else is it passed on? blood transfusions are not a sinful action. done in innocence .
I cant think of any other way.
Certain heterosexual activities, as well. That’s not the point. One can’t assume that a disease is simply the result of sinful behavior, or that sinful behavior results in afflictions.
I’m more inclined to trust the scriptural reasons for opposition to SSM, and SS activities.
Jon
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estesbob
Guest
Many create a god in their own image and likeness and then are just amazed that their God agrees with everything they believe!
Nothing new there Paul was talking about unit 2,000 year ago
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
1**4Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. **15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Nothing new there Paul was talking about unit 2,000 year ago
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
1**4Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. **15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I’m trying to think if I know of any Christians at all who take every word in the Bible literally. Catholics don’t necessarily believe Genesis when it says Creation occurred in 6 days with an evening and a morning accounting for one of the 6 days. I do know an SDA who doesn’t eat shellfish. I don’t know many Christians who follow Paul’s words about women not speaking in church. It’s been 16 mos but the last time I was in a Catholic church I’m pretty sure women were speaking. I don’t know a Baptist who takes “This is my Body” literally. And so on and so on the list can go of Christians of any stripe not following every word in Scripture. Many more examples have been given by others here.
And your last words I have not a clue what you are talking about. The last I checked UCC, TEC, PCUSA, ELCA for example were all Trinitarian and professed Christ. And while I see you’re not Catholic but Anglican, even so especially when the Catholic Church still considers each of them Christian, you totally lost me on that account. But does the Anglican Church not consider them Christian? Maybe that’s what you meant. I don’t know.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I realize this has been an issue within some Episcopal communities but from what I’ve been told by priests, there has been hardly any dissension at all and no exodus of churches in the Episcopal diocese where I live. But people quit attending their churches all the time. Many Catholics don’t attend either. You have me by about x2 but it’s going on 1 1/2 yrs since I have been to a Catholic church.
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benhur
Guest
On the contrary, it is gaining ground in our culture.
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benhur
Guest
On the positive side can two virgins who marry,man and woman, give or get any sexual disease, or a disease that can only be spread sexually otherwise?
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exnihilo
Guest
There is plenty in the Catholic Church that is not set in stone and open to debate. I think everyone, or almost everyone, will agree with this statement: in necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas. The problem is how do we know what is essential? Who determines this? The Catholic Church has a pretty good answer along with a pedigree.
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estesbob
Guest
But what difference does it make? I believe I was born an alcoholic but that does not give me free reign to get drunk.
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estesbob
Guest
Again there is a certain amount of conceit in our cultures “discovery” that all faiths were wrong about Homosexuality until the very recent past. The Church is condemned for holding to teachings that it has held since Christ founded it and teachings which every single Christian denomination agreed with until the last few decades. One wonders what makes us wiser than all who went before us?
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theropod
Guest
First of all, I don’t want to give the impression that my words in any way reflect the positions of the Anglican Church in any of its provinces, or any other individual Anglicans for that matter. I just want to make that clear.
There are examples in the denominations you have listed where leaders have denied things such as the virgin birth, the exclusivity of Christ, the physical resurrection of Christ, the existence of Hell, and other things. High ranking leaders.
These things are not simple matters of interpretation. They are either true or not. If you deny the virgin birth, you implicitly deny Christ’s divinity, thus deny the Trinity.
[edit] I mean for crying out loud, if you can’t even believe the Apostles’ Creed, are you still a Christian? That is not a high bar.
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clem456
Guest
It is commonly accepted that same sex couples may have very strong urges and feelings which may feel “natural” to them in the same way as same sex couples. This is the realm of feelings, passions, emotions. All good things when well integrated with reason and faith.
But, the use of the sexual faculty for same-sex relations is self-evidently un-natural.
What do we mean by self-evident?
Self evident means that by common sense and honest observation of the thing in question, a sane person can observe how the world is, and use reason to make conclusions as to how this thing works.
For instance…
The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Any sane person can observe this as it is revealed in nature, and come to a self evident conclusion, as to how the sun behaves in this way. This self evident conclusion is available to any sane person.
It is good to note here that a Magisterium or Scripture are not necessary to observe what God reveals. The Church observes what God has revealed and employs reason and faith in proclaiming what God has revealed. It is not as if the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has invented some contorted teaching in regards to sexuality. We simply observe what is and affirm that it is good.
Likewise, it is un-reasonable to deny how human beings are made sexually, what the purpose of the equipment is, how it is used in a complementary way.
You may say “So what? I also use my mouth to speak, to kiss, to eat, there is more than one function for the mouth. So my sexuality can also be used for other purposes”.
However, sexuality is not ordered to eating, or speaking, or whistling. Sexuality is ordered to the very existence of human beings.
***Do you believe that the order of human existence is in any way unique and exceptional?
*** Or is it just another thing among many?
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clem456
Guest
On a very much related topic, the passage from Romans you refer to it is not focused primarily on what is natural or unnatural. This passage is about deception and idolatry. This topic dovetails nicely with the observations about self-evident nature above. Here is the passage in context.
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- The wrath* of God* is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickednessp of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
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For **what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.**q
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Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity **have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made.**r As a result, they have no excuse;
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for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, **they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.**s
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**While claiming to be wise,t they became fools
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and exchanged the glory of the immortal God *for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.u
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Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.v
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**They exchanged the truth of God for a lie **and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.w
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Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
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and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.x
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And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.
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y They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips
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and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents.
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They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
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Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Stephen168
New member
It does in a law of non-contradiction sort of way.
A discussion of sodomy is not a discussion of marriage, but it always seems to come up; kind of a red herring.
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Doormouse
Guest
I always thought it was a VIRUS?
But ill stick with what I believe on the matter.
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Thorolfr
Guest
It’s passed on from husbands to their wives and from mothers to their unborn children. It’s passed on in places like Africa through reused needles because clinics and hospitals sometimes don’t have the money to buy new needles and syringes. It reminds me of part of the lyrics of a song I’ve heard:
If He can send tornadoes and the fatal flood
Bury whole cities in a wall of mud
**Put a deadly virus in a baby’s blood **
If God’s sitting back and resting
Who’s doing all this testing?
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