How do I answer this one?

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Moot point. No one could afford a hand written translation in ANY language before the priniting press, and even after that it would have been a finacial burden most would not be able to bear.

I suppose this is too realistic a consideration in today’s world. Most people don’t realize the financial sacrifice involved in buying one. That’s just for starters.

How many people on average could read on their own then?

I think we can put this in perspective if we actually put ourselves in that time period.
 
Jericho777, please investigate this for yourself. Always check out both sides of a story; that way you get better understanding.

You said, “People were killed for reading the word of God. That’s something to remember. How can you people defend and justify this haneous action. People in the OT were allowed to read and know sacred scripture. This is the word from God to his people.”

Please cite your sources for your claim that Bible-reading was punishable by death. I have never heard of that.

Bibles were far from common before the 1800s. For starters, most people couldn’t read. It wasn’t until long after the printing press came along, around 1440 AD, that average folks could afford their own Bibles. Printing did make them cheaper, but while less expensive, they stayed pricey.

Before the press, all Scriptures were written out by hand. One person hand-writing one Bible would take about 62 years.* Bibles were hand-written in monasteries. They were prohibitively expensive to buy. In today’s money, the scribes alone would cost around 1,375,860 USD, at minimum wage.

So, if people were indeed murdered just for reading the Bible, there weren’t very many of them.

By the way, Wycliffe died of apoplexy (a stroke). So whaddaya know, the Church didn’t kill him!​

*Math: it took 31,000 people 9 months to hand-write a NIV Bible. knoxnews.com/news/2009/jul/04/handwritten-niv-bible/

9 months x 30 = 270 days. 270 x 31000 = 22931 days for one person to write it. Divided by 365 gives 62 years.

22931 days x 8 hours = 183,448 hours, x $7.50 = $1,375,860.

God bless you,

Ruthie
 
The church had possesion and controlled access to them. I was just on timemagazine.com These are a couple of links but there are a lot more. This was brought about by scholars wanting to do reasearch but were denied access by the church. They have had stories on The History Channel, Learning and Discovery etc Check it out.

Sorry, but Time, History Channel, etc. are entertainment. They love a conspiracy theory because it sells. Just look at DaVinci Code. None of those sources cite bona fide scholarly sources.

The Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto is certainly not an organ of the Catholic Church. The video/DVD they offer about The Scrolls has a secular scholar who has studied The Scrolls for 30 years and specifically debunks any idea of Vatican interference. He said that stories like those sell books, and no doubt propel TV ratings.

The exhibit in Ontario just closed and the Jordanians are trying to get Canada to return the Scrolls to them because Israel stole them. The Vatican is not in the scene. Why do Time, History, etc. dump on Catholics?
 
rep140 said:
The church had possesion and controlled access to them. I was just on timemagazine.com These are a couple of links but there are a lot more. This was brought about by scholars wanting to do reasearch but were denied access by the church. They have had stories on The History Channel, Learning and Discovery etc Check it out.

Sorry, but Time, History Channel, etc. are entertainment. They love a conspiracy theory because it sells. Just look at DaVinci Code. None of those sources cite bona fide scholarly sources.

The Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto is certainly not an organ of the Catholic Church. The video/DVD they offer about The Scrolls has a secular scholar who has studied The Scrolls for 30 years and specifically debunks any idea of Vatican interference. He said that stories like those sell books, and no doubt propel TV ratings.

The exhibit in Ontario just closed and the Jordanians are trying to get Canada to return the Scrolls to them because Israel stole them. The Vatican is not in the scene. Why do Time, History, etc. dump on Catholics?
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Israel stole them?

Can you give me more information so I can post it to the Jewish believer in the non catholic forums about questions about Judaism?
 
Lost_Again said:
I have been slowly working my way back to the Catholic faith but as the members of my present church try and talk me out of it, I find myself in a battle to defend my decision. Lately the tactic has been “Why would you want to return to a church that persecuted people for reading the bible in their own language”?
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As has been pointed out many times before, It is the Catholic Church which made the Bible available in the commonly used languages throughout the millennia.

153-170 A.D. THE FIRST TREATISE ON “THE HARMONY OF THE GOSPELS.”: The earliest attempt at constructing a Harmony was that of Tatian (died a.d. 172). and its title, Diatessaron, furnishes abundant evidence of the early acceptance in the Catholic Church of our four canonical Gospels The next Harmony was that of Ammonius of Alexandria, the teacher of Origen, It appeared about A.D. 220,

2nd - 3rd A.D. CENTURY THE FIRST BIBLE SCHOOL: The early Catholics started a school in Alexandria for the learning the Gospels and other early Catholic writings.

250 A.D. THE FIRST PARALLEL LANGUAGE BIBLE: The Catholic Origen creates the Hexapla edition of the Old Testament which contained parallel Hebrew and Greek versions.

250 A.D. THE FIRST CATHOLIC LIBRARY: The Catholic Origen creates a very well-stocked library in Caesarea, for the purpose of studing the Gospels and other early Catholic writings.

250-300 A.D. THE FIRST BIBLE IN BOOK FORM: The Jews used long papyrus scrolls, the Early Catholics were the first to use the book (codex) form for sacred scriptures.

4TH CENTURY THE FIRST USE OF THE WORD “BIBLE” was by the Catholic Church: It came from the Greek word “biblos” which means the inner bark of the papyrus, paper-reed, from which paper was originally made, in Egypt. The Latin form “Biblia” spelled with a capital letter, came to mean “the Book of Books,” “The Book” by way of pre-eminence, the inspired Book, etc. The Holy Scriptures were first called the Bible by St. Chrysostom, the Catholic Archbishop of Constantinople, in the 4th century.
4TH CENTURY THE OLDEST EXISTING BIBLES: The two oldest existing Bible containing both the Old and most complete New Testaments called today the Codex Vaticanus (325-350 A.D.), the Codex Sinaiticus (340-350 A.D.), the Codex Ephraemi (345 A.D.), and the Codex Alexandrinus (450 A.D) were hand copied by Catholic monks.

388 A.D. THE FIRST GLOSSARY OF PROPER NAMES IN THE BIBLE: St. Jerome compiled the “Book of Hebrew names, or Glossary of Proper Names in the Old Testament,” The Book of Hebrew Names was no doubt of much use in the ages is which men were ignorant of Hebrew, although it’s arrangement is rather clumsy with a separate glossary for each book of the Bible.

388 A.D. THE BOOK OF THE SITE AND NAMES OF HEBREW PLACES: St. Jerome compiled the “The Book of the Site and Names of Hebrew Places” which was first compiled by Eusebius athough St. Jerome’s has additions. the names under each letter being placed in separate groups in the order of the books of Scripture in which they occur; for instance, under the letter A we have first the names in Genesis, then those in Exodus, and so on. But there is less room here for what is fanciful, and the testimony of men who lived in Palestine in the fourth and fifth centuries is of great value still to the student of sacred topography. When the places are outside the writer’s knowledge, credulity is apt to creep in, as when the author tells us that on Ararat portions of the ark are still to be found.

390 A.D. THE FIRST COMPILING OF THE COMPLETE NEW & OLD TESTAMENT: At the Council of Hippo, the Catholic Church gathered together the various books which claimed to be scripture, passed on the merits and claims of each and this council decided which were inspired and which were not. The Catholic Church put all the inspired books and epistles together in one volume with The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament (which was translated by seventy scholars at Alexandria, Egypt around the year 227 B.C., this was the version Christ and His apostles used) and That is the Bible as we have it today. The Catholic Church therefore gave to the people and the World, the Bible as we have it today.

400 A.D. MOST OF THE SACRED SCRIPTURES RANSLATED:
In Syriac, Coptic, Ethhiopic, Georgian Languages. Across the Rhine and Danube from the Roman Empire A version was translated by the Catholic Bishop Ulfilas (318-388), who after devising an alphabet, produced a version of the Scriptures from the Septuagint Old Testament and from the Greek.

(Continued)
 
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406 A.D. THE ARMENIAN TRANSLATION: In 406 the Armenian alphabet was invented by Mesrob, who five years later completed a translation of the Old and New Testament from the Syriac version into Armenian.

405 A.D. THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE COMPLETE BIBLE IN THE COMMON LANGUAGE: Latin Vulgate, from the Latin editio vulgata: “common version”, the Bible still used by the Catholic Church, was translated by St. Jerome (Whom the translators of the 1611 Authorized Version in their original preface called " a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him"). In 382 Pope Damasus commissioned Jerome, the leading biblical scholar of his day, to produce an acceptable Latin version of the Bible from the various translations then being used. His revised Latin translation of the Gospels appeared about 383. Using the Septuagint Greek version of the Old Testament, of which he produced a new Latin translation, a process that he completed about 405. (3) It is as a translator of Scripture that Jerome is best know. His Vulgate was made at the right moment and by the right man. The Latin language was still living, although Latin civilization was dying; and Jerome was a master of it.

450-550 A.D THE BEZAE CANTABRIGIENSIS (ALSO CALLED CODEX BEZAE): This is the oldest existing bilingual manuscript, with Greek on the left page, and Latin on the right. Bezae
Cantabrigiensis was a western text copied c. 450-550 A.D. It has preserved most of the four Gospels, parts of Acts.

7TH CENTURY THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN TO FRENCH LANGUAGE: French Versions of the Psalms and the Apocalypse, and a metrical rendering of the Book of Kings, appeared as early as the seventh century. In 1223 (A. D.) a complete translation was made under the Catholic King Louis the Pious. This was 320 years before the first Protestant French version. Up to the fourteenth century, many Bible histories were produced.

7TH CENTURY, THE FIRST GERMAN VERSION: The history of Biblical research in Germany shows that of the numerous partial versions in the vernacular some go back to the seventh and eighth centuries. It also establishes the certainty of such versions on a considerable scale in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, and points to a complete Bible of the fifteenth in general use before the invention of printing.

7TH CENTURY, SPACES PLACED BETWEEN THE WORDS: In the seventh Century, Irish and English monks began to leave space between the words as they copied the biblical texts by hand, before this all the letters ran together making a entire book look like one giant word.

8TH CENTURY,THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN TO ENGLISH LANGUAGE: By Aldhelm, the Bishop of Sherborne, and Bede. A 9th century translation of the Bible in to English was made by Alfred. A tenth century translation in to English was made by Aelfric., By 1361 a translation of Scripture into the current version of English.

This image is of the “Vespasian Psalter” a eighth century Catholic translation of the Book of Psalm in to English

9TH CENTURY, THE FIRST SLAVIC TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE: The Catholic Saints Cyril and Methodius preached the Gospel to the Slavs in the second half of the ninth century, and St. Cyril, having formed an alphabet, made for them, in Old Ecclesiastical Slavic, or Bulgarian, a translation of the Bible from the Greek. Toward the close of the tenth century this version found its way into Russia with Christianity, and after the twelfth century it underwent many linguistic and textual changes. A complete Slav Bible after an ancient codex of the time of Waldimir (d. 1008) was published at Ostrog in 1581.

1170 A.D. THE FIRST PARALLEL ENGLISH LANGUAGE BIBLE: Eadwine’s Psalterium triplex, which contained the Latin version accompanied by Anglo-Norman and Anglo-Saxon English language renderings.

THIRTEENTH CENTURY, THE FIRST DIVISION OF SCRIPTURE INTO CHAPTERS: It was the British Catholic Arch-Bishop of Canterbury, St. Stephen Langton (died 1228), was first to tabulate scripture into Chapters and verses, and we follow his arrangement to this day.

THIRTEENTH CENTURY, THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN TO SPANISH LANGUAGE: Under King Alfonso V of Spain.

1230 A.D. THE FIRST CONCORDANCE: A concordance of the Latin Vulgate Bible was compiled by the Dominican Friar Hugo of Saint Cher.

(cont)
 
(cont)

1300 A.D. THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN TO NORWEGIAN LANGUAGE: The earliest and most celebrated is that of Genesis-Kings in the so-called Stjórn (“Guidance”; i.e., of God) manuscript in the Old Norwegian language, probably to be dated about 1300. Swedish versions of the Pentateuch and of Acts have survived from the fourteenth century and a manuscript of Joshua-Judges by Nicholaus Ragnvaldi of Vadstena from c. 1500. The oldest Danish version covering Genesis-Kings derives from 1470.

1454 A.D. THE FIRST PRINTED BIBLE: A Catholic named Gutenberg caused great excitement when in the fall of that year he exhibited sample pages at the Frankfurt trade fair. Gutenberg quickly sold out all of the 180 copies of his Latin Vulgate Bible even before the printing was finished.

1470 A.D. THE FIRST PRINTED BIBLE DICTIONARY WAS PRINTED: It was written by Johannes Marchesinus ( a Franciscan friar). It was a guide to understanding the text of the Bible explains the grammatical constructs and etymology of difficult words in the Scriptures. Printed only 15 years after the First Book ever printed in the world, the Gutenberg Bible!

1466 A.D. THE FIRST PRINTED GERMAN BIBLE: This was fifty eight years before Luther made his German Translation in 1524. In that fifty eight years the Catholics printed 30 different German editions of the Bible.

1470 A.D. THE FIRST PRINTED SCANDINAVIAN BIBLE: In the fourteenth century, versions of the Sunday Epistles and Gospels were made for popular use in Denmark. Large portions of the Bible, if not an entire version, were published about 1470.

1471 A.D. THE FIRST PRINTED ITALIAN BIBLE) In the years before Luther’s Bible was published, the Catholics printed 20 different Italian editions of the Bible.

1475 A.D. THE FIRST PRINTED DUTCH BIBLE: The first Bible in Dutch was printed by Catholics in Holland at Delft in 1475. Among several issued from the press of Jacob van Leisveldt at Antwerp.

1466 A.D. THE FIRST PRINTED FRENCH BIBLE the Catholics printed 26 different French editions of the Bible.

This should pretty well skuttle the false accusations that the Church suppressed the bible.

The only translations that were opposed were blatently corrupt and false translations.
 
jericho777 said:
The Church also controlled access to the Dead Sea Scrolls. It wasn’t until some people figured a way around the road block and published the work. Now us plain stupid folks can read it too.

People were killed for reading the word of God. That’s something to remember. How can you people defend and justify this haneous action. People in the OT were allowed to read and know sacred scripture. This is the word from God to his people.

There was a time not to long ago that this type of forum would landed you in some religious hot water. I’m surprised they let this thing stay up now. You can not defend the Churches action and still want to use this forum because this forum is exactly what the Church was trying to protect itself from. Remember only clergy have the training and authority from the Church to read and discuss scripture. So you all are banned from this forum from this day forth. 😉
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Jericho, can I ask you a sincere question? Lost came here to try to figure out a claim against the Catholic Church. If you read Lost’s post, you can tell that he/she is struggling with his/her church community concerning the truth about the Catholic Church. Lost also indicates that he/she may want to come into the Catholic Faith. Therefore, my question is… why are you jumping in and doing exactly what Lost’s church community is doing? Why are you trying to deceive and cast doubt? Are you threatened? On the other hand, is the one who hates the truth and detests anyone who wants to become closer to the body of Christ working on you? Does this passage from Sacred Scripture ring a bell with you? **Matthew 16:23 ***But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. *(KJV) Think about it and give Lost some space to prayerfully ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and figure out his/her direction in their spiritual life.
 
The main thing I would suggest is that you read Steven Ray’s “Crossing the Tiber”. He is a convert from an evangelical baptist church, and addresses many of these issues you have regarding the Bible, much more completely, accurately and well-researched than you will get from this forum.

I will say that there were already Catholic translations of the Bible out in the vernacular before Martin Luther. It was heretical, mistranslated Bibles that were destroyed. As Steven Ray says “The Church burned Bibles because She loved the Bible, and she wanted there to always be the true, accurate Word of God for the people to read.”

I will also say that the Bible was not kept in Latin so people could not read it. The Bible remained in Latin so long because only the educated people could read at this time, and educated people read Latin! The vernacular was spoken, but very few “common people”, if you will, were literate.

Again, I turn you to “Crossing the Tiber”. I think many of your questions and concerns will be put to rest there.

May the Holy Spirit lead you home, my friend! You are on the right path.

Peace, love and blessings,
Frank

p.s. It would probably be more beneficial to you to talk to a priest and do some reading on your own, rather than try to talk to people from your Church who are harboring some unfair, anti-Catholic views. Remember, you do not owe them an explanation. God bless you 🙂
 
Lost_Again said:
I have been slowly working my way back to the Catholic faith but as the members of my present church try and talk me out of it, I find myself in a battle to defend my decision. Lately the tactic has been “Why would you want to return to a church that persecuted people for reading the bible in their own language”?
Schroeder, pp. 17-19).
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You have been given the gift of Faith… Your true journey is to become a ’
christian person, show that faith to the people in your life, and to save your Soul.

The bible is a “means” to help you to abtain the Grace of God in order to ’
“become Christ” and fulfill your personal vocation.

The first step is to santify your self… To do the works of the new nature that is
growing within you. To obey the ten commandments and to reach out to those in your life
who are in need of the Love of God which can come through you ie: feed the hungry,
clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prison… etc…

Your Faith is to be shown to the people directly in your life… family, friends, co-workers,
neighbors and the stangers who comes across the paths of your life’s journey.

You pick and choose the church which will give to you the channels where you can
obtain the Grace of God in order to be who He wants you to be.

I suggest the Catholic church as it has the most meaningful means for me to obtain
that actual Graces of God for me. I highly recommend the sacraments of Confession
and to receive the Euharist as often as you can… " I am the vine you are the branches
you must remain in me to have life"…

You have you own call to follow… I can not tell you what it is that God wants you to do
nor how to do it.

For me the Bible is one of those channels for me to gain the Grace of Knowledge of God
for MY life.

Go surf on this forum and notice the endless hours of arguments that are bible based
from thousands of visitors here and see how they are still arguing over the meaning of the exact scriptures and have been for five hundred years between the different christian denominations… Each time one of them claim a certain bible truth the other goes to another interpertion of the bible from one of ten different languages and they are not getting to far too fast… it “seems”

Let me share something with you… which opened my eyes when I was a very young
man and was in my first year of my first monastery as a novice…

Ten of us monks would go once a week into a room… in this room of silence was a large round wooden table. We sat around this table in silence. There were tablets of paper and a pencil in front of our chairs. One of the Monks… would take out a piece of paper he had brought with him and he would read a verse or two of some particular scripture from the bible. He would read it and then stop. We would sit and meditate on that reading.
after ten minutes of this silent meditation the monk who read the scritpure would
knock on the table top with a light tap… At that time each of us would take the pencil and write on the tablet what that particular scipture meant to us. The papers were folded
and placed in a large wooden bowl which was passed around to each of us.
When the head monk got the bowl of papers. He would take them out one at a time.
he would slowly read each of them and we would meditate on what each had written.

In the seven years I participated in that bible study… there was never two papers which
had the same meaning written on them from of the same scripture…

I really don’t know what it is that you are seeking from your letter… but this is written to
give you some seeds of thought as to what I think one should use the bible for.
To seek the Grace of God to be who he wants you to be…

But if you are indirectly wanting to point out that the catholic church used religion
in order to kill certain people in history and this bothers you… I can understand that.
You might open your bible to where God set up the laws where killing was very much
in order I might suggest Lev and Num to start out with.

Anyone who broke many of the laws of the Jewish faith had death sentences on them
and in some cases if one person violated a law his/her whole family was put to death.

You might seek out some of the history books regarding that time of the world’s history
and see what it might show…
 
Lost_Again said:
I have been slowly working my way back to the Catholic faith but as the members of my present church try and talk me out of it, I find myself in a battle to defend my decision. Lately the tactic has been “Why would you want to return to a church that persecuted people for reading the bible in their own language”?
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I eliminated the rest of your post because others have commented on it and done so correctly. I want to concentrate on your very first sentence. Here is my question to you. WHY are you still in that denomination??? GET OUT NOW!!! Go find yourself a good RCIA class and join it and have nothing to do with your former denomination other than to tell them that you have found the pearl of great price. Know this and know it well. Protestantism is built on lies. Sola scriptura is a lie [See 2 Thess 2:15]. Private interpretation of the scriptures is a lie [See 2 Peter 1:20]. The Bible is a Catholic liturgical book. Notice I said “A CATHOLIC LITURGICAL BOOK”. It is Catholic because Catholics wrote it, Catholics established is canon, and Catholics preserved it. It is liturgical because the Bible canon was determined for the sole purpose of having a standard set of readings available for use in the Divine Liturgy [Mass]. Protestants have perverted the Bible by taking a liturgical book and making it into some sort of self study guide to christianity. As a result, protestant denominations have, in just 500 years, fractured and divided into more than 30,000 denominations. [Some sources say over 40,000]. Get out of that denomination and do it fast.
 
I would like to apologize to all for the tone and manner of my post. It is not my goal to hurt or offend anyone. It was unchristian how I tried to make my point. I would like to reengage the discussion in a more positive fashion.
Thank you
 
jericho777 said:
I would like to apologize to all for the tone of my post. It was unchristian. I would like to reengage the discussion in a more positive fashion.
Thank you
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Good for you 🙂 It is always heart warming to see the Christian side win out. Peace.
 
=Lost_Again; I have been slowly working my way back to the Catholic faith but as the members of my present church try and talk me out of it, I find myself in a battle to defend my decision. Lately the tactic has been “Why would you want to return to a church that persecuted people for reading the bible in their own language”?
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I have done my own research and it would “appear” that this might be true. What I would like to know is if this is TRUE or not? Did the church enact laws and formally prosecute and persecute people for owning a bible?
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EXAMPLES I HAVE FOUND:
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During the period when the Roman Catholic Church was in power, she did everything she could to keep the Bible out of the hands of the common people. It was illegal to translate the Bible into the common languages, even though most people could not read the official Catholic Bible because it was in Latin, a language known only to the highly educated.
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(1) In the year 1215 Pope Innocent III issued a law commanding “that they shall be seized for trial and penalties, WHO ENGAGE IN THE TRANSLATION OF THE SACRED VOLUMES, or who hold secret conventicles, or who assume the office of preaching without the authority of their superiors; against whom process shall be commenced, without any permission of appeal” (J.P. Callender, Illustrations of Popery, 1838, p. 387). Innocent “declared that as by the old law, the beast touching the holy mount was to be stoned to death, so simple and uneducated men were not to touch the Bible or venture to preach its doctrines” (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, VI, p. 723).
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Well your right without being correct🙂

***Indeed that was the policy of the CC. So one need ask WHY:shrug:

Before I answer I must point out that the “Bible” is a matter of Faith Understanding. Why is this signifiant?***

**John 14: 16 ** "And I [Jesus] will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. [NOTE] God can’t lie.

John.17 Verses 15 to 20: "I [Jesus] do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. [18] As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. **And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. **[20] “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word”
[Again God can’t lie. What He ask of the Father MUST be done!]

***The relevance of these two vwerses answers the second WHY. God Himself in the Person of the Holy Spirit because of the Word of Chrsit and through the merits of Christ, by the Sacred Vow of Christ, guarentee the TRUTHFULNESS of any and all CC Teaching on Matters of Faith and or Morals.

Any matter relating to the Bible is defacto, a matter of Faith, so any Church teaching touching Faith issues is assured by the very Blood of God as the correct and truthful action.***

**Now to the first WHY? This policy was in effect not to prevent understanding; RATHER it was and DID control and protect the laity from MISUNDERSTANDING!

YOUR QUOTE
so simple and uneducated men were not to touch the Bible or venture to preach its doctrines”
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Does not seem like such a dumb idea afterall.

Another question. Why is this important?**

***From roughly 1650 to 2008 Protestant denominations have grown at an EXTRODINARY RATE. Form One to to MANY, MANY THOUSANDS of various philosophical, and theologically different denominations with a PRIMARY CAUSE of not agreeing on what the Bible actually say’s or means. Thousands of denominations in a period of about 350 years:blush:

The Catholic Church from AD 100 [roughly] to 1650 had One Bible, One Church [yes there were some brances to this church numbering fewer than 30.] And in the ensuing 350 years we still have One Bible and One Church!***

***This affirms the Prudence of the action and the guarentee of God Himself to Protect His Church.

***The scourge and CURSE of Protestant religions is personal interpetation of the bible. LOOK what it has wrought.:eek:

In summury friend: if you seek Chrsit [in Person] known forgiveness of sins, The SINGULAR truth on all matters of Faith and Morals; then your ONLY option is Christ Catholic Church 😃:tiphat: Come on Home! And by the way 'Rome is still in power and still guided by the Holy Spirit.**

Love and prayers,

Pat
 
In the matter of the DSS, there was a big controversy about the length of time it took the team of scholars to release access to the documents, and that was the big issue. It had nothing to do with the Vatican, only the lack of access by other scholars.

One of the rules in dealing with finds like these is that the primary research time has exclusive rights to the source materials until they are done with them. Most will not try to keep everyone else away for decades, but will instead tackle the work in sections, focusing on one piece, publishing, then releasing access to the fragments to the world. Then on to another batch, etc.

But not so in this case. These were found in the late 1940s, and while they published their translation early enough, they did not relinquish access to the source materials in ANY form until the 1960s. You couldn’t even see any detailed photographs of the fragments until after that. Scholars in this field of work protested loudly because they wanted access for their own scholarly efforts to compare these documents with others, but were shut out because the primaries were “still not done.”

They had a set of high-res photos taken, but didn’t release them. A backup copy was placed in the vault of a person who was a friend and sponsor of the original research team. When this woman died, she donated her collections (which included copies of the original hi-res photos of the DSS) to the University and their library. They didn’t even know what they had for years, and when they discovered it, they made them available online, much to the howls of protest from the DSS researchers who STILL felt they should have exclusivity rights.

Were it not for that fluke, probably few on this forum would ever be able to see what any piece of those scrolls looked like except through museum exhibits or expensive books in the field of ancient text studies.
 
Lost_Again said:
Lately the tactic has been “Why would you want to return to a church that persecuted people for reading the bible in their own language”?
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Seems you quoted people who spoke some five hundred years ago… when most
people couldn’t read and when bibles were too numerous…

And I don’t know how that matches up with what Catholics have been doing for
the past same five hundred years… and that is reading the bible…

but then since they have… we have over twenty thousand different non-catholic
churches because they can’t agree on what they are reading from the same
bible…

Maybe it was better when they didn’t read it…

But as for your decision to think about coming near the Catholic Church I would
imagine that would be up too you. Why does what other people says matter to you?

There is certainly quite a difference in the doctrines and beliefs between the Catholic
faith and the non-Catholic ones… One can not get the same sacraments of the Catholic church from other churches… I think this is something you need to study and decide on.

I don’t see how what people did five hundred years ago… regarding the dangers of letting the uneducated people have access to the sacred scriptures is so important too you for coming to the church during this time of history… we are talking about your salvation needs here aren’t we? Or are we?
 
Well, any updates or further commentary?

Did you get a chance to engage them on this topic, and if so how did it go?🙂
 
In the older days religion had much more hold and sway.

It was a way to control and manipulate tribes…and then nations.

Only in the modern age, with so much sharing of information are we starting to lose our ignorance and slowly become free of religion and it’s laws. Basically that law was made to try and keep control 🙂
 
Thecapz said:
In the older days religion had much more hold and sway.

It was a way to control and manipulate tribes…and then nations.

Only in the modern age, with so much sharing of information are we starting to lose our ignorance and slowly become free of religion and it’s laws. Basically that law was made to try and keep control 🙂
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yeah, those darn Apostles controlling us by being martyred. I mean the nerve of them lying about Jesus resurrecting just so they could be killed for preaching it. All 12 of them must have been crazy.

Good thing we are a lot smarter today and can re-write history 👍
 
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