How do I answer this one?

[jericho777]

chessmane4e5 and inkaneer
I think where our differences arise from is bible christians rely on Jesus and His word only where as you rely on the church and what they say about the word then Jesus. It seems to me like you are limiting the work of the Holy Spirit by bottle necking Him in the clergy. He is rarely seen in the hands of the laity. I under stand your structure but don’t see it in a bible only interpretation. Thats just our differences.

 

[chessmane4e5]

chessmane4e5 and inkaneer
I think where our differences arise from is bible christians rely on Jesus and His word only where as you rely on the church and what they say about the word then Jesus. It seems to me like you are limiting the work of the Holy Spirit by bottle necking Him in the clergy. He is rarely seen in the hands of the laity. I under stand your structure but don’t see it in a bible only interpretation. Thats just our differences.

Not true, I hold the Bible very highly. Especially when Jesus told Peter that He would build His Church upon him, and when He gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom. Matt 16:13-19

We know that the Clergy and Laity hold different roles, but they are equally important.

A bible only interpretation does not make sense as seen from:

1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone.

2 Thess 3:6 - Paul instructs us to obey apostolic tradition. There is no instruction in the Scriptures about obeying the Bible alone (the word “Bible” is not even in the Bible).

1 Tim. 3:14-15 - Paul prefers to speak and not write, and is writing only in the event that he is delayed and cannot be with Timothy.

and many more here scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html

I prefer to follow all of Christs teachings, and not just those that happened to be written down and compiled years (350) later.

 

[fbl9]

The point is Baptists did not convene a general assembly to form or condone the KKK. Baptists are not an organization like the CC.

So you’re telling me the church has not ever done anything wrong or made any mistakes? I do not hate the church I disagree with its man made rules and man made doctrines. That’s why we can discuss them here so we both can educate ourselves.

Them there ‘man made’ rules help the observer,of the “rules”, to obtian greater grace,love,devotion,learn some self discipline, increase piety, in gerenal help create a mpore complete christian.Show the world the commandment thou shalt not drink in scripture then you might have one of your own rules actually from scripture, as it stands now :you follow man made rules yourself.
Pick any doctrine you like and fully expalin eactly how this doctrine makes void God’s commandment/word.

 

[inkaneer]

chessmane4e5 and inkaneer
I think where our differences arise from is bible christians rely on Jesus and His word only where as you rely on the church and what they say about the word then Jesus. It seems to me like you are limiting the work of the Holy Spirit by bottle necking Him in the clergy. He is rarely seen in the hands of the laity. I under stand your structure but don’t see it in a bible only interpretation. Thats just our differences.

I disagree. Bible christians do not rely on Jesus and His Word. "Bible christians rely on their interpretation of Jesus and His Word. There is a big difference. If the Holy Spirit was truely guiding the “bible” christians then I would not see the divisions and fractures within “bible christianity”. IF [big word there] IF the “bible” christians were truly led by the Holy Spirit there would be only one interpretation not the chaos of thousands of interpretations that exist today. The Holy Spirit is the author of truth not the author of chaos.

One more thing, The bible was originally a liturgical book to be used in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. It was the church’s reaction to the onslaught of Gnostic writings which claimed to be divinely inspired. By codifying which writings were inspired individual churches would know which writings were suitable for use in the Divine Liturgy of the Mass. It was never intended to be a self study guide to christianity that protestantism perverted it to being. When Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth that promise was not made to all of His disciples. It was made only to eleven Apostles who comprised the heirarchy of the church. Jesus had many more disciples than just eleven Apostles. Scripture records 120 of them in the upper room. So the claim by protestants that they are led by the Spirit in interpreting scripture is thoroughly fraudulent.

 

[jericho777]

Them there ‘man made’ rules help the observer,of the “rules”, to obtian greater grace,love,devotion,learn some self discipline, increase piety, in gerenal help create a mpore complete christian.Show the world the commandment thou shalt not drink in scripture then you might have one of your own rules actually from scripture, as it stands now :you follow man made rules yourself.
Pick any doctrine you like and fully expalin eactly how this doctrine makes void God’s commandment/word.

There is no commandment against drinking just excessive or drunkenness or strong drink.

Man made rules do nothing for our relationship with God. They only make us think we are pleasing God in our flesh. Our works are filthy rags to the Lord.

These are the words of our Lord Mark 7:5-8 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”

6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

7They worship me in vain;

their teachings are but rules taught by men.’

8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

 

[jericho777]

I disagree. Bible christians do not rely on Jesus and His Word. "Bible christians rely on their interpretation of Jesus and His Word. There is a big difference. If the Holy Spirit was truely guiding the “bible” christians then I would not see the divisions and fractures within “bible christianity”. IF [big word there] IF the “bible” christians were truly led by the Holy Spirit there would be only one interpretation not the chaos of thousands of interpretations that exist today. The Holy Spirit is the author of truth not the author of chaos.

One more thing, The bible was originally a liturgical book to be used in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. It was the church’s reaction to the onslaught of Gnostic writings which claimed to be divinely inspired. By codifying which writings were inspired individual churches would know which writings were suitable for use in the Divine Liturgy of the Mass. It was never intended to be a self study guide to christianity that protestantism perverted it to being. When Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth that promise was not made to all of His disciples. It was made only to eleven Apostles who comprised the heirarchy of the church. Jesus had many more disciples than just eleven Apostles. Scripture records 120 of them in the upper room. So the claim by protestants that they are led by the Spirit in interpreting scripture is thoroughly fraudulent.

The Bible contains mysteries that will not be revealed until they happen i.e. the return date of Jesus.
Not all passages are easily deciphered and there could be multiply interpretations.
Basic grammatical observations can interoperate the bulk of the text.
The bible is not encrypted to dissuade the reader from understanding the text.
We agree man made rules are false doctrine and lead the faithful astray.
All that believers need for salvation are clear and understandable.
The bible was first used for instruction to the churches for doctrine and instruction.
It is the perfect self study guide to keep everyone honest. When every one knows what it says there will be an educated body of Christ.
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

 

[fbl9]

There is no commandment against drinking just excessive or drunkenness or strong drink.

Man made rules do nothing for our relationship with God. They only make us think we are pleasing God in our flesh. Our works are filthy rags to the Lord.

You never can prove this.Why? In order to prove this you first must prove the person doing the works has no faith.

These are the words of our Lord Mark 7:5-8 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”

6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

7They worship me in vain;

their teachings are but rules taught by men.’

8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

You best be getting back to the present time not the time of the old Jewish ways.What you have wrote does nothing to disprove the ‘man made rules’ of the church do nothing.
You fail to see that all the doctrines of the Church are not made by man but by the Holy Spirit, announced by a man
.Since scripture was written by man is it ,too, man made?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Jericho,

Imagine that you have created a book about your family’s history. That family is a living, breathing organic unit - it consists of members, of people who lived those stories you’ve chosen to put to paper, it has living members still, and those who are not in the book because they have yet to come to life at the time of publication…

Now imagine if a third cousin takes that book and says that he has the whole history of your family - from the beginning to the end. The book is complete and lacking in nothing.

Now, not only does this third cousin use the book to dispute the living breathing members who the Book is written about, he also uses phrases and sections of it to contradict what you say about your own family - despite the fact that you claim it is not a contradiction but clarification. … and Whenever you mention the great-great grandchildren that were born after the book was published, your third cousin claims they are not part of the family since they aren’t mentioned in the family history book…

Not only does he do all of the above… he chooses to tear out the pages from the family history book that mention Uncle Johnny, since he never really liked Uncle Johnny anyway…
then whenever you mention Uncle Johnny, your third cousin keeps saying he isn’t really part of the family since he erased him from the family history book…

 

[Subrosa]

Hi Jericho -

Not all passages are easily deciphered and there could be multiply interpretations. Basic grammatical observations can interoperate the bulk of the text.
The bible is not encrypted to dissuade the reader from understanding the text.
We agree man made rules are false doctrine and lead the faithful astray.
All that believers need for salvation are clear and understandable.

This is an understatement. Consider Acts 8:30-31 & 2 Peter 3:15-17. Both point out that scripture is not that clear, but needs interpretation.

It is the perfect self study guide to keep everyone honest. When every one knows what it says there will be an educated body of Christ.

If this were true, then maybe you can explain this & this & this

Clearly interpretation of the bible has fallen into the subjective. I could give examples of this for days without stopping. So, in recognizing this reality, isn’t it better to choose the church who chose the biblical books to begin with? It certainly has the most consistant interpretation.

A simple study of John 3:3-5 will demonstrate this.

Justin Martyr, First Apology, AD 155 "Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are reborn by the same manner of rebirth by which we ourselves were reborn; for they are then washed in the water in the name of God the Father and Master of all, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ said, “Unless you are born again you will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.”

Tertullian, On Baptism, AD 203 "Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life

Hippolytus, *Homilies *11:26 A.D. 217 "[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible.
(1) Pope St. Zosimus’s approval of the Council of Mileum II (416), canon 3. (DS 102n).
(2) Council of Valence III (855), canon 5. (DS 324).
(3) Pope Innocent III’s Letter “Ex parte tua” (1206). (DS 410).
(4) Pope Innocent III’s Letter “Non ut apponeres” (1206). (DS 412).
(5) Pope Gregory IX’s Letter “Cum, sicut ex” (1241). (DS 447). (6) Council of Florence “Decree for the Armenians” (1439). (DS 696).
Document (1) interprets John 3:5 as indicating that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Documents (2) and (3) interpret John 3:5 as providing a foundation for the regenerative nature of the Baptism (i.e., justification through water baptism). Documents (4), (5), and (6) all interpret John 3:5 as maintaining that real and natural water are the remote matter for the validity of the Sacrament of Baptism. In addition to this, Document (6) interprets John 3:5 as also teaching that Baptism is the gateway to the reception of the other Sacraments through which we are made members of Mystical Body of Christ (i.e., the Church).

Catechism of the Catholic Church: “The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]” (CCC 1257).

 

[inkaneer]

The Bible contains mysteries that will not be revealed until they happen i.e. the return date of Jesus.
Not all passages are easily deciphered and there could be multiply interpretations.
Basic grammatical observations can interoperate the bulk of the text.
The bible is not encrypted to dissuade the reader from understanding the text.
We agree man made rules are false doctrine and lead the faithful astray.
All that believers need for salvation are clear and understandable.
The bible was first used for instruction to the churches for doctrine and instruction.
It is the perfect self study guide to keep everyone honest. When every one knows what it says there will be an educated body of Christ.
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Tell me where did you get that bunch of B.S.? I know you did not get it from the scriptures. Second your posting of 2 Tim 3:16 contradicts all you said above it. Third, while 2 Tim 3:16 says “All Scripture is useful…” It does not say “ONLY scripture is useful…” Fourth, being useful is far different than being a “perfect study guide”[your words]. Scripture never makes that claim. Fifth, scripture says the church is the pillar and foundation of truth [1 Timothy 3:15]. That contradicts your statements above and if sola scriptura was true then that verse would be in error. But scripture is not in error, is it? Sixth, you fail to address my point about the thousands of protestant denominations who are “led by the Spirit” yet who cannot agree on doctrine. Why?

 

[jericho777]

You never can prove this.Why? In order to prove this you first must prove the person doing the works has no faith.You best be getting back to the present time not the time of the old Jewish ways.What you have wrote does nothing to disprove the ‘man made rules’ of the church do nothing.
You fail to see that all the doctrines of the Church are not made by man but by the Holy Spirit, announced by a man
.Since scripture was written by man is it ,too, man made?

I don’t think it lack of faith that’s the problem it’s misguided faith. The leaders in the OT had a lot of faith but it was misguided as our Lord said and did nothing for them spiritually.

Man made rules do not have the authority of God. Scripture was given to men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16

You can’t tell me the OT leaders did not have love for God. As Jesus said they were misguided in their ways. It doesn’t matter how old or new man made rules are they are still of man.

 

[jericho777]

Hi Jericho - This is an understatement. Consider Acts 8:30-31 & 2 Peter 3:15-17. Both point out that scripture is not that clear, but needs interpretation.

If this were true, then maybe you can explain this & this & this

Clearly interpretation of the bible has fallen into the subjective. I could give examples of this for days without stopping. So, in recognizing this reality, isn’t it better to choose the church who chose the biblical books to begin with? It certainly has the most consistant interpretation.

A simple study of John 3:3-5 will demonstrate this.

Justin Martyr, First Apology, AD 155 "Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are reborn by the same manner of rebirth by which we ourselves were reborn; for they are then washed in the water in the name of God the Father and Master of all, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ said, “Unless you are born again you will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.”

Tertullian, On Baptism, AD 203 "Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life

Hippolytus, *Homilies *11:26 A.D. 217 "[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible.
(1) Pope St. Zosimus’s approval of the Council of Mileum II (416), canon 3. (DS 102n).
(2) Council of Valence III (855), canon 5. (DS 324).
(3) Pope Innocent III’s Letter “Ex parte tua” (1206). (DS 410).
(4) Pope Innocent III’s Letter “Non ut apponeres” (1206). (DS 412).
(5) Pope Gregory IX’s Letter “Cum, sicut ex” (1241). (DS 447). (6) Council of Florence “Decree for the Armenians” (1439). (DS 696).
Document (1) interprets John 3:5 as indicating that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Documents (2) and (3) interpret John 3:5 as providing a foundation for the regenerative nature of the Baptism (i.e., justification through water baptism). Documents (4), (5), and (6) all interpret John 3:5 as maintaining that real and natural water are the remote matter for the validity of the Sacrament of Baptism. In addition to this, Document (6) interprets John 3:5 as also teaching that Baptism is the gateway to the reception of the other Sacraments through which we are made members of Mystical Body of Christ (i.e., the Church).

Catechism of the Catholic Church: “The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]” (CCC 1257).

You have taken these verses out of context.

Acts 8:30-31 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
The eunuch did not understand because he did not know who Jesus was. After he found out who he was he immediately wanted to be baptized. Would your church immediately baptize someone who believes?

2 Peter 3:15-17 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Just as Jesus spoke in parables to keep the truth of God form those outside the kingdom Mark 4:12. So Paul did in his letters to believers. Notice Paul is talking about ignorant and unstable people not believers.

You all want to make the bible out to be something that is totally not understandable to the average believer. That’s simply not true. A plain and simple reading of scripture will reveal many if not most of it’s meaning. I’m definately not saying there are not difficult passages there are. There will always be hard passages that people will wrangle over. The Jews did it in the OT and so we do it now.

 

[fbl9]

I don’t think it lack of faith that’s the problem it’s misguided faith. The leaders in the OT had a lot of faith but it was misguided as our Lord said and did nothing for them spiritually.

Man made rules do not have the authority of God. Scripture was given to men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16

You can’t tell me the OT leaders did not have love for God. As Jesus said they were misguided in their ways. It doesn’t matter how old or new man made rules are they are still of man.

Again you misunderstand the words of God…for the words we are discussing clearly show that these men did not have a great love of God rather they had a great love for thier postion,“their hearts are far from me” if that is love then count me out.

 

[inkaneer]

Just as Jesus spoke in parables to keep the truth of God form those outside the kingdom Mark 4:12. So Paul did in his letters to believers.

Wait a minute. If Paul was writing to believers then why is Paul trying to keep the truth of God from them? You are not making any sense.

You all want to make the bible out to be something that is totally not understandable to the average believer. That’s simply not true. A plain and simple reading of scripture will reveal many if not most of it’s meaning. I’m definately not saying there are not difficult passages there are. There will always be hard passages that people will wrangle over. The Jews did it in the OT and so we do it now.

No, we are not saying that at all. You want to make the Catholic position out to be that the bible is a bedtime story that the church reads to us. But the Catholic position is that Jesus established a church with authority and to that church He sent the Holy Spirit to guide into the truth. Just as the OT Jews did not have authority to interpret the law neither does the NT believer. If you read Matthew 23:2 Jesus says the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat and Jesus tells the people to obey them. Moses was the law giver. The pharisees were his successors Now if you read the gospel of John you will see that the Spirit of truth was not promised to all of Jesus desciples but only to a select few numbering only eleven. This idea that individual “believers” can interpret the Bible correctly is a fraudulent doctrine because the protestant premise of being led by the Spirit of truth is a myth. Over 40,000 protestant denominations and counting tells me and should tell you that the Holy Spirit is not leading protestants. If He were, they would be one.

 

[fbl9]

Wait a minute. If Paul was writing to believers then why is Paul trying to keep the truth of God from them? You are not making any sense.

No Not beleivers rather those outside the kingdom(believers are of the kingdom)non believers are outside.

snip>
. Over 40,000 protestant denominations and counting tells me and should tell you that the Holy Spirit is not leading protestants. If He were, they would be one.

Actually the very fact that there is more than one protestant christain group/church/fellowship/assembly,etc…says something in its self.

 

[fbl9]

I don’t think it lack of faith that’s the problem it’s misguided faith. The leaders in the OT had a lot of faith but it was misguided as our Lord said and did nothing for them spiritually.

Yeah these men did not lack faith in themsleves,while their faith in God was very wrong cause they would not/could not recognize Jesus for who He was.

Man made rules do not have the authority of God. Scripture was given to men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16…

Please show me one of these man made rules you speak of.Please do remember how Jesus judged the manner in which the Ot leader’s man made rule made void the commandment of God.

You can’t tell me the OT leaders did not have love for God. As Jesus said they were misguided in their ways. It doesn’t matter how old or new man made rules are they are still of man.

Please show the words of our Lord saying they were misguided…
But aren’t we all man?

 

[Subrosa]

First of all not all protestant churches were part of the KKK. There was no denominational authority given to the KKK. They were individual churches or pastors.

The catholic church had armies and the power of excommunication at its disposal to use as it saw fit. The church sent armies into battle for its causes. When the church called for an army you could not refuse because your soul was in danger of hell fire. I don’t recall a Baptist army because they did not have that kind of power or authority over individuals.

You will never condemn or call into question the actions of the church because they will send you to hell. They have no accountability to anyone because they have made themselves beyond question or reproach.

The Catholic Church sent the Crusaders into Jerusalem in order to protect Christianity. Quite frankly, had they lost the battle western civilization would have become a muslim society.

sub

 

[Subrosa]

The catholic church believes it has the power to send people to hell or heaven. You claim the power to hold mens sins against them. You know binding and loosing.

The Catholic Church does not have the power to send anyone into hell. That is an outright lie. It cannot make God’s judgements for Him.

Sub

 

[Subrosa]

If a person truly repents to God it does not matter what any organization says or does. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleans us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

You are to stuck on an organization you need a personal relationship with God. He will never leave or forsake you. Dt 31:6

The Church is the Body of Christ, i.e., is Christ Himself. (1 Cor 12:12 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.) Christ willed this to be.

To be a member of the Catholic Church is to be a member of Christ Himself (Acts 9:1-5
Now Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, that, if he should find any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them back to Jerusalem in chains. On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”)

To be a member of the Catholic Church is to have closer personal relationship to Christ than anyone can who is a Protestant denomination. Through the Eucharist, Christ abides within us and we within Him. (John 6:56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.) You can’t get any closer than that. Does your denomination even have a Eucharist?

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[Subrosa]

chessmane4e5 and inkaneer
I think where our differences arise from is bible christians rely on Jesus and His word only where as you rely on the church and what they say about the word then Jesus. It seems to me like you are limiting the work of the Holy Spirit by bottle necking Him in the clergy. He is rarely seen in the hands of the laity. I under stand your structure but don’t see it in a bible only interpretation. Thats just our differences.

Sorry, wrong again. I am a member of the Legion of Mary, a lay apostolate. Along with Mary, we work with the Holy Spirit on a regular basis. When we meet, the first thing we do is call on the holy Spirit for His guidance. Look here for our prayers.

The problem with “bible only” interpretation is that anyone can make out of it what he/she wills. Catholic interpretation is consistant throughout the whole history of the church, that is, Christ’s Church. Even when some have strayed, the authority of the church has brought them back in line, or they have left to subject the holy scriptures to thier own relativity. See an erronious interpretation of scripture here.

It is not just a matter of disagreeing here. This is much more serious. Your salvation is on the line. (2 Peter 3:15-16 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.)

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