How do I choose a Church?

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The original sacred scriptures were all written by “Jews” (the Apostles actually), the originals of none of which in fact have survived. What we have is only a small abridgement of what any of them wrote.
The Hebrew Scripture (OT) is written by Jews. The NT is written by the Apostles and theire companions. John wrote the Gospel of John, Mark wrote Mark’s Gospel, Matthew wrote Matthew’s Gospel, and the companion of Paul, St. Luke, a Greek wrote Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts.

Paul wrote most of the Epistles, Peter wrote two of the epistles, James also wrote the epistles, and John again wrote the Revelations.
 
The Hebrew Scripture (OT) is written by Jews. The NT is written by the Apostles and theire companions. John wrote the Gospel of John, Mark wrote Mark’s Gospel, Matthew wrote Matthew’s Gospel, and the companion of Paul, St. Luke, a Greek wrote Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts.

Paul wrote most of the Epistles, Peter wrote two of the epistles, James also wrote the epistles, and John again wrote the Revelations.
The Apostles were Jews, Jesus was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. All well known facts. Nothing wrong with that, these are just the facts.
 
The Hebrew Scripture (OT) is written by Jews. The NT is written by the Apostles and theire companions. John wrote the Gospel of John, Mark wrote Mark’s Gospel, Matthew wrote Matthew’s Gospel, and the companion of Paul, St. Luke, a Greek wrote Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts.

Paul wrote most of the Epistles, Peter wrote two of the epistles, James also wrote the epistles, and John again wrote the Revelations.
Then you didn’t read carefully anything that I had written. Go and read it again, you might have better luck this time. None of the four Gospels that we have today are the originals written by the Apostles. They are all abridgements of what they wrote made by others. The only difference between Luke and the rest is that, in the case of Luke, we know by name who the abridger (the compiler, the editor) was; and in the case of the others we don’t. In the Gospel named after Luke, Luke was only the compiler (the editor, the abridger) of the work, not the original author of it. He did not compose any scripture himself; he merely compiled, eidted, and abridged what others (the Apostles) had wtritten before him. Therefore he did not write any scripture himself; only the Apostles did.

zerinus
 
I’ll do you one worse. Imagine being in the military, getting transferred, joining a church of the same denomination as the one you used to attend, and having to explain to the kids,

“Yes, we are still Baptist, but now that we live in Tennessee we don’t believe that teaching anymore. And when we move to Arizona next spring, we’ll change our beliefs again.”

I know a man who moved to my town who kept his family away from church for 2 years. He was looking for a new church home with two criteria:
  1. The pastor had to teach the bible the same way it was taught in his previous town.
  2. The sign on the door had to say “Church of Christ.”
20+ Church of Christ congregations in and around my town, but only one was teaching the bible The Right Way. I guess the other 19 were leading their flocks straight into hell.
Oof. Thanks for reminding me why I’m so grateful for Holy Mother Church.
 
Then you didn’t read carefully anything that I had written. Go and read it again, you might have better luck this time. None of the four Gospels that we have today are the originals written by the Apostles. They are all abridgements of what they wrote made by others. The only difference between Luke and the rest is that, in the case of Luke, we know by name who the abridger (the compiler, the editor) was; and in the case of the others we don’t. In the Gospel named after Luke, Luke was only the compiler (the editor, the abridger) of the work, not the original author of it. He did not compose any scripture himself; he merely compiled, eidted, and abridged what others (the Apostles) had wtritten before him. Therefore he did not write any scripture himself; only the Apostles did.

zerinus
How do you know? What are your sources for this information?
 
That’s what modern scholars of today believe. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.
The New Testament Canon:
Eight Tips about the Canonical Arrangement of the NT (to help you learn the correct order of the 27 NT books):
  1. The 27 books of the New Testament are NOT listed in chronological order (the order in which they were written historically); several other principles were operative.
  2. The overall order begins with the life of Jesus (the four Gospels), then deals with the growth of the Christian Church (Acts, Letters, Epistles), and finally focuses on the Eschaton (the end of time, as described symbolically in the Book of Revelation).
  3. The four Gospels are listed in what was traditionally regarded as their chronological order (i.e., Matthew was thought to be the oldest Gospel); most scholars today, however, believe that Mark was the first written Gospel (or at least the oldest of the four canonical Gospels in their full versions, as we know them today).
  4. The Acts of the Apostles was originally the second volume of Luke’s two-volume work; but when the four Gospels were grouped together, Acts was placed after John.
  5. The letters written by Paul (or at least attributed to him) are divided into two sub-groups: those written to communities and those addressed to individuals; within each sub-group, the letters are arranged not in chronological order, but rather in decreasing order of length (more or less, although Galatians is slightly shorter than Ephesians).
Source: catholic-resources.org/Bible/NT_Canon.htm#Canonicity
 
  1. The anonymous “Letter to the Hebrews” comes immediately after the Pauline letters because people used to think it was also written by Paul; it may have been written by one of his followers, but was almost certainly not written by Paul himself.
    7. The Catholic or General Epistles are also listed in decreasing order of length, although letters attributed to the same apostle are grouped together.
    8. The Book of Revelation (singular! not “Revelations”!) closes out the NT canon, since it concludes with a description of the end of time (New Heavens, New Earth, New Jerusalem, etc.).
Ten Stages of NT Formation and Transmission (with considerable chronological overlap, continuing down to today):Rudolf Koch: The Gospel Book Enthroned
Some scholars propose only 3 stages (Historical Events, Oral Tradition, Written Texts), others 5 stages (Historical Events, Oral Tradition, Written Tradition, Editing, Canonization); the following schema more comphrensively lists 10 stages, many of which overlap:
  1. The Historical Jesus - words are spoken and deeds are performed by Jesus himself during his lifetime on earth.
  2. Oral Tradition - traditions and beliefs about Jesus are developed and passed on by early Christian communities.
  3. Written Sources - some of the miracles and/or sayings of Jesus are compiled and recorded in early written documents.
  4. Written Texts - individual letters, full Gospels, etc., are written with particular messages for particular situations.
  5. Distribution - some writings are copied and shared with other Christian communities throughout the Mediterranean.
  6. Collection - certain Christians begin collecting the letters of Paul and gathering together several different Gospels.
  7. Canonization - four Gospels, several collections of letters, and a few other texts are accepted as authoritative scriptures.
  8. Translation - biblical texts are translated into ever more ancient and modern languages: Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, etc.
  9. Interpretation - the meaning of the scriptures is investigated on various levels: literal, spiritual, historical, social, etc.
  10. Application - communities and individuals use the NT for practical purposes: liturgical, moral, sacramental, theological, etc.
Four Criteria for Canonicity (why certain books were eventually accepted into the NT Canon, while others were rejected):
  1. Apostolic Origin - attributed to and/or based on the preaching/teaching of the first-generation apostles (or their closest companions).
  2. Universal Acceptance - acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the Mediterranean world (by the end of the fourth century).
  3. Liturgical Use - read publicly along with the OT when early Christians gathered for the Lord’s Supper (their weekly worship services).
  4. Consistent Message - containing theological ideas compatible with other accepted Christian writings (incl. the divinity and humanity Jesus).
Four-Fold Role of the Evangelists as Authors (what they contributed, even if “God is the Author” of all scripture):
  1. Selectors - from among the many things Jesus said and did, they chose which stories they wanted to include and which to omit.
  2. Arrangers - they organized the materials in a particular sequence, not necessarily chronologically but often in thematic blocks.
  3. Shapers - they adapted and edited the individual stories from their sources so as to emphasize the themes they wanted to stress.
  4. Proclaimers - they were not objective historians, but preached the “good news” about Jesus in ways appropriate to their audiences.
 
OK, my first example was a bit extreme, but I think that those people who joined those churches think that they are truly following what is written in scripture, and that they are not heretical.
So I see now that we do need a little guidance beyond personal prayer and reading the scripture when choosing a church.

But even with Protestant churches I had listed, there is going to be a wide range of beliefs, and some are serious, and could affect one’s salvation if they are incorrect. (ie once saved, always saved). If prayerful prayer and discernment has been show that it still could lead me astray, how can I join a church that teaches only the truth that Jesus taught? What authority do these churches have to teach that truth? The Bible? I have just shown that even in reading the Bible, one can be led astray.

I feel, I was to choose a protestant church, it would have to match my beliefs, and I would have to play it safe, and choose those beliefs that would not risk my salvation. Then I would choose the type of fellowship, I would want a welcoming church that is in love with the Lord, and then lastly would come location, I would not want to have to drive for hours to get there.
 
I gave that in post #77

zerinus
yeah, but what you quoted for your source was from the Gospel of Luke and it does NOT say how they were delivered… for all I know it could of been ORAL.

Nothing said it was a written text!!!
 
Luke didn’t write any scriptures. He made an abridgment of larger records of sacred texts that existed at that time, which he had access to; the originals of which have since perished. He says that himself:

Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 ***Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; ***3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,…

All of the four Gospels are in fact abridgments of larger works the originals of which have not survived, including the great Gospel of John. The complier of the Gospel of John again makes that clear in the book:

John 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

“He that saw . . .” was John, not the person who compiled (or abridged) the Gospel of John. There are more interjections made by the compiler or editor of the Gospel of John, proving that it is an abridgement, not the original account:

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:31 But these {i.e. smaller account} are written…

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written {i.e. implying that he has made an abridgement of the original Gospel of John, not the full account}. Amen.

The original sacred scriptures were all written by “Jews” (the Apostles actually), the originals of none of which in fact have survived. What we have is only a small abridgement of what any of them wrote.

zerinus
You’ve done a good job of explaining why you think the gospels were compiled and abridged by someone else. What’s missing is any supporting evidence found in the Early Church Fathers’ writings. If they were abridged it’s strange that the ECF’s never mention it, and that not even fragments of these “larger works” survive.

In fact, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Clement, and Polycarp testify that the gospels were written by the named authors and not someone else. Justin Martyr refers to the “memoirs of the Apostles, which are called gospels”, and which “are read in Christian assemblies together with the writings of the Prophets”. Memoirs, not abridgments; this was a critical factor used by the Early Church Fathers in determining which writings would be included in the New Testament.

Yes, Luke had access to other writings. Specifically, he had access to the Gospels of Mark and Matthew, or at least an early draft of Matthew. That’s why so many of the same stories appear in all three synoptic gospels. Luke was also personally taught by the apostles, which is why he knew some details that are not found in the other accounts. It has nothing to do with abridging larger accounts that subsequently vanished.

Have you considered another possibility regarding the Gospel of John? Specifically, that it was written in “third person” language because the author was humble? “Third person” language is a literary device often still employed today by an author who does not want to draw undue attention to himself.

John did not include everything, not because he was abridging someone else’s work, but because he was writing with an ink quill on parchment. He wrote enough to get the point across, and enough additional to convince the skeptics.

Today we have digital recorders, voice transcription software, flash memory, monster hard drives, the internet… John had a quill, an ink bottle, and parchment, none of which were cheap. He was one ordinary, old man with limited resources. That’s why he wrote a gospel instead of a library.

Nan
 
Have you considered another possibility regarding the Gospel of John? Specifically, that it was written in “third person” language because the author was humble? “Third person” language is a literary device often still employed today by an author who does not want to draw undue attention to himself.
Interesting thought, but would a humble man consistently refer to himself as “the disciple whom Jesus loved”? Jesus loves all of his disciples, yet John seems to draw attention to himself with the self-description that he uses. I don’t know, perhaps John was the humblest man alive, but it raises questions in my mind.
 
I noticed after reading this thread (and many others of a similar content) that when asked about what church one should join it all comes down to what “I” want or “I” believe. What makes “me” feel right. What “I” understand.

It’s all about ME, MYSELF and I…with just a little sprinkling of you (as in "what makes ‘you’ feel good).

What about what God wants? What Jesus wants? Or the Holy Spirit? And I don’t mean “Whatever the Holy Spirit guides me to do what “I” want”.

And how about Truth? Truth isn’t supposed to make you “feel good”. As a matter of fact, quite the opposite! Truth can be very uncomfortable.

I want to be Catholic. The reason isn’t because I get all warm and fuzzy inside. It isn’t because of the fellowship or the social gatherings. It isn’t even because “I” want to. It’s because God is telling me to. I know it’s going to cause many problems with family, friends and loved ones.

That’s why I’m not quite home because of the anguish & fear of loss of and possible persecution by loved ones (but that’s a subject for another thread)

The point I’m trying to make is that please don’t leave the Catholic Church based on emotions or conveniences. Jesus didn’t start the Church so we could all feel good & to be accomodated. He started the Church so we could worship Him & to be a part of the Body of Christ. And of course to spread the Good News to all nations:)
 
yeah, but what you quoted for your source was from the Gospel of Luke and it does NOT say how they were delivered… for all I know it could of been ORAL.

Nothing said it was a written text!!!
We know that they were written and not oral from the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke). These three Gospels have a lot in common (which is why they are called “synoptic”). Some of the passages in them are almost word for word identical. This could have only been possible if the writers of those Gospels drew from a set of common texts which were written. At the same time, there are enough differences between them to enable us to conclude that they did not just copy from each other either. The only possible explanation is that they drew upon a larger set of common written texts the original of which have not survived. The Gospel of John is different from the rest. It is derived form a completely different text, not common with the synoptics. But as I have shown, that also is an abridgement from a larger record, the original of which has not survived.

zerinus
 
You’ve done a good job of explaining why you think the gospels were compiled and abridged by someone else. What’s missing is any supporting evidence found in the Early Church Fathers’ writings. If they were abridged it’s strange that the ECF’s never mention it, and that not even fragments of these “larger works” survive.

In fact, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Clement, and Polycarp testify that the gospels were written by the named authors and not someone else. Justin Martyr refers to the “memoirs of the Apostles, which are called gospels”, and which “are read in Christian assemblies together with the writings of the Prophets”. Memoirs, not abridgments; this was a critical factor used by the Early Church Fathers in determining which writings would be included in the New Testament.
That is a good point, but there is a lot of mystery and obscurity surrounding the writhing of the four Gospels. We have absolutely no historical data as to how they came to be written; and the earliest complete texts of them that have survived date form around the forth or fifth century. Apparently the ECFs weren’t any wiser either; so the fact that they don’t say anything about is proves nothing.
Yes, Luke had access to other writings. Specifically, he had access to the Gospels of Mark and Matthew, or at least an early draft of Matthew. That’s why so many of the same stories appear in all three synoptic gospels. Luke was also personally taught by the apostles, which is why he knew some details that are not found in the other accounts. It has nothing to do with abridging larger accounts that subsequently vanished.
See my reply to Mommyof02green.
Have you considered another possibility regarding the Gospel of John? Specifically, that it was written in “third person” language because the author was humble? “Third person” language is a literary device often still employed today by an author who does not want to draw undue attention to himself.
Yes, that is a possibility; but there is enough internal evidence within the text to make another explanation more plausible.
John did not include everything, not because he was abridging someone else’s work, but because he was writing with an ink quill on parchment. He wrote enough to get the point across, and enough additional to convince the skeptics.
They wrote with quill and parchment; but they were still capable of producing quite large works when they wanted to. Plenty of it has survived from even earlier time. They did not always have to write things themselves. They could dictate it to someone else. Paul dictated most of his letters, and only added a signature at the end.

zerinus
 
Interesting thought, but would a humble man consistently refer to himself as “the disciple whom Jesus loved”? Jesus loves all of his disciples, yet John seems to draw attention to himself with the self-description that he uses. I don’t know, perhaps John was the humblest man alive, but it raises questions in my mind.
Yes, John consistently refers to himself that way. That’s precisely the point.

He was the youngest. He was the only one to remain with Jesus at the crucifixion. He was the one to whom Jesus entrusted the care of His mother.

Never once does he say, “I, John…” He always describes himself in the third person, almost anonymously.

Nan
 
We know that they were written and not oral from the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke). These three Gospels have a lot in common (which is why they are called “synoptic”). Some of the passages in them are almost word for word identical. This could have only been possible if the writers of those Gospels drew from a set of common texts which were written. At the same time, there are enough differences between them to enable us to conclude that they did not just copy from each other either. The only possible explanation is that they drew upon a larger set of common written texts the original of which have not survived. The Gospel of John is different from the rest. It is derived form a completely different text, not common with the synoptics. But as I have shown, that also is an abridgement from a larger record, the original of which has not survived.

zerinus
then please try to explain why each of these three are obviously written to different groups of people…

or did your “original” writer(s) forsee that

or

are the “originals” still somewhere waiting to be unearthed by an LDS or some other current false prophet.
 
You will definitely want one that provides the best childcare, 'cause that’s whats really important.😉
and coffee and donuts;)
[SIGN]krispy kreme 👍 [/SIGN]
:rotfl: :rotfl:
oh, come on. I don’t think those are serious replies.
🙂 Oh come on, lighten up. I’m sure you know that a lot of protestant churches are big on having child care right there during serves and/or some even run daycare services for babies until the age of preschool. Lukelion, Cardinalsong and aimee were just being facetious. 😃

I am late coming in this thread btw, sorry. 😛 I don’t know if I’ll read all of the posts but I will read some as my time is limited.
 
In the end, you choose the Church that you are comfortable with.
:confused: Huh?! Most comfortable with?! Isn’t that why some protestants hop from church to church… because they are not comfortable with the one they attend now? They want to find one that fits with what they believe instead of being in one that has the fullness of truth no matter how it makes them feel.

We are supposed to conform to the beliefs of the apostles, not have their beliefs conform around what we want to believe. Since the Catholic Church believes in what the Apostles and Jesus Christ believes then we are to believe that. If you leave the Church or are not part of the Catholic Church then you are trying to bend “faith” to what you want it to be according to your feelings.
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rr1213:
If you are devout, this choice is made according to what you believe to be the Church which teaches the truth.
You are backwards. :whacky:
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rr1213:
All of this is true whether you are Catholic or Protestant.
No it’s not true for Catholics. If one wants to be Catholic they have to be obedient to the Church’s teachings whether they believe or not or whether they “feel” it or not. They just have to obey if they don’t agree. In the meantime they can do some research as to why the Church teaches a certain thing if they’re not in agreement with her.
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rr1213:
Ultimately, if you want to convince Protestants to convert to the Catholic faith you must change our minds. We must be convinced that the Catholic faith, not our own, is the one that holds the truth. If we are not convinced, and we are devout, we will not convert. Even more ultimately, any such conversion needs to be the result of the Holy Spirit. And, likewise, the same is true from our perspective as to Catholics converting to non-Catholic Christian faiths.
You are so wrong on this one! The Holy Spirit will NEVER lead anyone away from the Catholic Church! The Catholic Church holds the FULLNESS of TRUTH! There is no way that the Holy Spirit will lead anyone away from the Church to which it gave birth at Pentecost!
 
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