How do I choose a Church?

[AlegreFe]

…cont.

Syele:

I find it sad to see protestant “childcare” made fun of in one thread and also see other threads where Catholics here are asking “How come Protestants know so much scripture?” “How do Protestants get people interested in having Bible studies?” How? We start with tiny Babies singing to them and teaching them, not only by their parents but by a Christian *community *as well.

Who’s making fun of protestant childcare? My sister is a teacher at a protestant church for their childcare. And I’ve never seen threads that would ask such questions either. But that doesn’t matter to me anyway. You already know what is more important to me than learning bible verses at such a young age. That does not impress me in the least.

I don’t even get impressed by an adult trying to memorize bible verses. An adult can learn bible verses just by reading the Scriptures and going to Mass. In time, the person would here many verses over and over again that they do eventually get memorized. But not by effort or purpose of just memorizing a verse. That is a “protestant thing” to memorize verses. I find it a waste of time. I could just be reading my bible. I could be praying. I could be watching the Daily Mass on EWTN. I could be praying my Rosary. I could be reading many of the Apologetic books that I have. I could be washing dishes and listening to Relevant Radio. I could be spending time with my daughter. I could be reminiscing with my friend of 28 years. I could be doing so much more than just sitting and memorizing bible verses. There are many verses that I know by heart now, but not because I sat down purposely to memorize them.

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…cont.

Syele:

I think that if I ever came to believe the Catholic Church is the true Church, it would be the saddest day in my life, because I’d have to give up living, worshipping God and being family in a *community * of people who love God.

Who in the world said that you have to give up all that? You would not believe all the possible goings on in a Catholic Community. You’ve just been in the wrong place at the wrong time that’s all.

Syele:

In all the time I attended Mass I tried to find such community. It didn’t exist. They came together for Mass but shared nothing with one another. They recieved the Eucharist as though they were each there apart from other humans.

I’m so glad I have Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!! If I HAD to choose between fellowship and the Eucharist, Jesus would win hands down. I’m sorry you can’t say the same thing. I would be very sad if I had to leave my Jesus in the Eucharist. You have no idea what you’re missing.

Syele:

After mass there was no Sunday School, no fellowship events,

Sunday School? That’s a protestant thing. No “fellowship events?” That also a protestant thing. But Catholics do have Community events and Potluck dinners, dances, prayer groups, bible studies… etc… etc.

Syele:

no getting to know even what the names of the others there were.

I attend Mass at two and three different Churches. Do you have any idea how many people attend Mass on Sunday just in one of the Churches I attend? At least 2,000-2,500 people for one of the Churches. At least 2,500-3,000 for another and about 200-250 for another one. That is a lot of people to get to know their names. :whacky: And frankly, I wouldn’t want to know everybody’s names. I do know many people by name at one of the Churches but we’re just acquaintances from the Church and that’s it. That is just fine with me. I don’t need to go to these people’s houses and mingle with them all the time. Just seeing them on Sunday or another night of the week (which does happen in Mass as I attend during the week sometimes) is nice enough for me.
But if I didn’t have Jesus one Sunday, I would really be sad.

Syele:

That isn’t how Jesus lived. He traveled with the disciples, lived with them, ate with them taught them, showed love for them.

You’re absolutely right which proves my other point of trying to get babies and toddlers to memorize bible verses. Jesus had no bibles to pass out for “bible study” back then.

Syele:

When I mention this, Catholics even show contempt for my concern.

Then you’re talkin’ to the wrong Catholics. But at the same time since I place more importance in Jesus then in people, then it could be the same thing for many other Catholics and you probably just misunderstood them and/or got the wrong idea.

You see, Catholics don’t go to Mass to get entertained or to get a “fix” of “people smiles.” We go to Mass to Worship God and to give thanks to God for what He has given us, mainly Jesus Christ. We go to receive Jesus in the Eucharist. The Holy Eucharist is the Source, Center and Summit of our Christian life. We don’t rely on our feelings to get satisfied by people. We get filled up with Jesus and the Holy Spirit when we go to Mass. I love it. It can’t get any better than Jesus in the Holy Eucharist!

Syele:

“Fellowship is not important.”

It’s not that it’s not important. It’s just that it’s not more important than Jesus.

Syele:

My heart breaks for what you miss out on.

Don’t get all bent over it. We’re not. How could we? We have Jesus Christ in the most intimate way in the Holy Eucharist. Jesus loves me so much that He humbles Himself and gives me Himself as my bread come down from Heaven! You can’t get any better than that!

Syele:

I guess you can’t miss what you never had.

Yep. You can’t miss what you never had. And if you ever had Jesus in the Eucharist then you never really believed that it was really Him that you consumed at Mass.

And who’s to say that any Catholic never had a Catholic Community life? You don’t know. Just because you’ve been to one community does not mean that all communities or Parishes are the same.

 

[AlegreFe]

I am a convert to the Catholic Faith, and I can assure you that if one side is missing something of grave importance, it would not be the Catholic Church.

That’s for sure! Jesus said if you don’t eat His body and drink His blood you have no life in you. I love Jesus and I want Him so that I may live with Him forever in Heaven!
E.E.N.S.:

My heart breaks that you miss out on receiving Christ, truly present, in the Holy Eucharist.

Same here. But if you don’t know any better then your heart won’t be breaking Syele. But you can always just join the Catholic Church, find a good Parish and start receiving Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar, the Holy Eucharist.

 

[AlegreFe]

I am glad to hear that some areas parishes are not so impersonal that they exclude community completely.

I don’t believe that any Parish excludes community completely. That’s just ridiculous. Are you aware that it’s the people that start certain events and certain groups. If you ever became Catholic, you could be a great asset to the Catholic Parish where ever you might join. You could start some kind of group yourself or gather people to volunteer to start some kind of event. And I’m sure that all Parishes at least have one thing going on. You’re just not looking and/or asking within that Church you mentioned. Oh and a bit of advice, not everything that goes on in a Catholic Parish takes place on a Sunday.

Syele:

This is not the reason I’m not Catholic. I will go wherever I believe God wants me to be and do whatever He wants me to do even if that was to join the Catholic Church.

But don’t you see, Jesus does want you to be in His Church. He started His Church for you! He loves you so much that He wants you to have Him in the Eucharist.

Syele:

I’m only saying it would be sad for me because I know what sort of gorup I’d be joining. Around here at least, it’d mean I’d no longer have a Christian community and attending Mass. It would mean me and God and an overworked Priest alone. No one else. Yes, one can survive that way, but it would be hard.

You can go to whatever Parish you wish. It does not have to be the one in your immediate neighborhood. And like I said before, you can be the one to initiate fellowship. Some Parishes can use people like you. :yup:

 

[rr1213]

Sunday School? That’s a protestant thing.

Take a look at the thread about Protestants not making the sign of the cross. The consensus among Catholics in that thread was that the only reason Protestants didn’t sign themselves was because it was “too Catholic”. As I stated there, if something has value it has value and should not be rejected simply because it is “too Catholic” or, for that matter, “too Protestant”. I was looking for an example to illustrate the point regarding something Catholics reject because it is “too Protestant” and Woola! I have it! Thanks.

Let’s remember that we are not talking about doctrine here. It violates no Catholic dogma to conduct Sunday School or any Protestant dogma to sign yourself. These things either have value in themselves for the persons at issue or they do not. I find it interesting as to how many times Catholics on these forums complain about how poorly many American Catholics know the doctrines of the Catholic Church, how little they are familiar with the CCC or the Scriptures. This is an issue that could be addressed quite well with Sunday School. Sunday School is one of those non-dogmatic things (like hymn singing) that Protestants do very well.

 

[AlegreFe]

Take a look at the thread about Protestants not making the sign of the cross. The consensus among Catholics in that thread was that the only reason Protestants didn’t sign themselves was because it was “too Catholic”. As I stated there, if something has value it has value and should not be rejected simply because it is “too Catholic” or, for that matter, “too Protestant”. I was looking for an example to illustrate the point regarding something Catholics reject because it is “too Protestant” and Woola! I have it! Thanks.

No you don’t have it! I never said that we reject “sunday school” I just said that it was a “protestant thing.” Don’t get all excited.

A lot of Catholics attend Catholic School and so they don’t need “Sunday School” because they have “sunday school” every day at school if they attend a Catholic School. And some Catholics attend public school but then they go to CCD classes on Saturdays and sometimes on a night during the week, so that is their “sunday school.” We do NOT reject the idea of Sunday School. I was just referring to the name of “sunday school” that is Protestant, that’s all. You can stop jumpin’ for joy now.

rr1213:

Let’s remember that we are not talking about doctrine here. It violates no Catholic dogma to conduct Sunday School or any Protestant dogma to sign yourself. These things either have value in themselves for the persons at issue or they do not. I find it interesting as to how many times Catholics on these forums complain about how poorly many American Catholics know the doctrines of the Catholic Church, how little they are familiar with the CCC or the Scriptures. This is an issue that could be addressed quite well with Sunday School. Sunday School is one of those non-dogmatic things (like hymn singing) that Protestants do very well.

As I’ve stated above, we have sunday school but we just don’t call it by that name. So I never said that the Catholic Church rejects Sunday school. We just don’t call it by that name. Please don’t say things you know nothing about.

 

[AlegreFe]

rr1213, just so you know, Catholic parishes also have VBS. I’m sure you know what that is.

 

[MrS]

rr1213, just so you know, Catholic parishes also have VBS. I’m sure you know what that is.

yeh, good old VBS… with lots of patience, we might even see a good one some summer… you know, where the kids might learn in one week as much as their homeschooled “peers” learn every day… instead of an “arts-n-crafts” week with a little non-denom flavor tossed in.

By the way… can you guess my opinions on VBS vs child care/baby sitting?

.

 

[AlegreFe]

yeh, good old VBS… with lots of patience, we might even see a good one some summer… you know, where the kids might learn in one week as much as their homeschooled “peers” learn every day… instead of an “arts-n-crafts” week with a little non-denom flavor tossed in.
By the way… can you guess my opinions on VBS vs child care/baby sitting?

I could take a good guess. http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Laughing.gif
I’m just glad that my child never attended such activities. The school even asked me to help out in the summer because I was working for the school as a teacher’s aid and in the lunchroom too. I just want to point out to rr1213 that we also have some things that are protestant in name.

And for sure my child knows a lot more than even a child in Catholic school. I pulled her out of a Catholic school 4 years ago and have home schooled her since. She can run circles around the kids that are still in that school.

 

[rr1213]

yeh, good old VBS… with lots of patience, we might even see a good one some summer… you know, where the kids might learn in one week as much as their homeschooled “peers” learn every day… instead of an “arts-n-crafts” week with a little non-denom flavor tossed in.

By the way… can you guess my opinions on VBS vs child care/baby sitting?

Yes, I’m sure that there’s some of that going around. I’ve also seen a lot of very good ones over the years.

 

[rr1213]

Please don’t say things you know nothing about.

Not sure how to respond to this one…

 

[JesusforMadrid]

The Roman Catholic Church is as confusing in its diversity as the Evangelical Church, if not more so.

For example, I live in Madrid, Spain. If I want to join a local Roman Catholic parish in my barrio, I can choose between various parishes led by the following priests:

1. A traditionalist: a member of Opus Dei who believes that the church should focus on reaching the centres of earthly power
2. A charismatic homosexual who believes in the legitimacy of homosexual sex
3. A moral relativist, who thinks the Vatican is out of step with modern Spain and argues for women priests
4. A Brazilian liberation theologist, who speaks much about social justice but little about heaven
5. An ailing octagenarian, who is theologically orthodox but puts even hyperactive children to sleep

Which parish should I choose? Not so easy.

Now, it gets even more confusing. If I want to join one of the many communities in these parishes, I can join:

1. The Neo Catecumenals, who conduct private masses, and think I should move to the poor neighbourhood
2. The Charismatic Renewal, which believes I should speak in tongues
3. Opus Dei, who are into mortification and santification through professional work and want me to tithe my earnings directly to them
4. Various Marian groups, that talk a lot about Mary but who speak very little about a personal relationship with Jesus

Compared to this ecclectic group of Roman Catholic priests and movements, I think the Evangelical church is relatively homogenous by contrast.

People are different and have different needs and tastes. Hence, the large number of Evangelical churches. I think this is a strength and one of the main reasons that 40%+ Americans are in church on a given Sunday versus only 15% of people in Spain, where the Catholic church has traditionally had a monopoly.

 

[rr1213]

Great post. But be prepared for the avalanche…

 

[MrS]

Which parish should I choose? Not so easy.

.

Any Catholic who has developed a well-formed conscience, as opposed to simply a conscience or no conscience at all, would have no problem seeing which priest is the best for his spiritual life,… even if the answer is none-of-the-above.

Perhaps that is the struggle with the american Catholics. Each is making his or her choice based on one of the three degrees of conscience… unfortunately, too many have yet to develope one at all… and can only opt out for the “feel-good” of the moment. … IMHO

 

[djrakowski]

For example, I live in Madrid, Spain. If I want to join a local Roman Catholic parish in my barrio, I can choose between various parishes led by the following priests:

1. A traditionalist: a member of Opus Dei who believes that the church should focus on reaching the centres of earthly power

What do you mean by this, and what do you offer as proof?

1. A charismatic homosexual who believes in the legitimacy of homosexual sex
2. A moral relativist, who thinks the Vatican is out of step with modern Spain and argues for women priests
3. A Brazilian liberation theologist, who speaks much about social justice but little about heaven

Everyone has access to sources of authentic Catholic teaching, and each of these alleged priests are quite out of step with Catholic teaching. Therefore, there’s no dilemma for the orthodox Catholic.

1. An ailing octagenarian, who is theologically orthodox but puts even hyperactive children to sleep

Which parish should I choose? Not so easy.

You’re not called to be entertained, but rather, faithful. Therefore, you choose the parish in which orthodox Catholic teaching is taking place, regardless of your stylistic preferences for entertainment. So, it is easy. In this scenario, parish #5 is the clear winner.

Now, it gets even more confusing. If I want to join one of the many communities in these parishes, I can join:

1. The Neo Catecumenals, who conduct private masses, and think I should move to the poor neighbourhood

How do you know that they believe you should move to a poor neighborhood? And, if they do, then you clearly know they’re not teaching in line with the Catholic Church, and stay away from them.

1. The Charismatic Renewal, which believes I should speak in tongues

Nothing in Catholic doctrine requires you to speak in tongues, so if they insist on this as doctrine, you clearly know they’re wrong, and are to be avoided.

1. Opus Dei, who are into mortification and santification through professional work and want me to tithe my earnings directly to them

Mortification is a personal choice. Fasting is a form of mortification - is that illegitimate, too? And, back up this claim that they want you to tithe to them. If they demand a tithe, or dangerous forms of mortification, then you don’t have to join. Opus Dei is a voluntary association of Catholic laypersons, and you don’t have to join if you don’t agree with their practices.

1. Various Marian groups, that talk a lot about Mary but who speak very little about a personal relationship with Jesus

Anyone who emphasizes Mary to the point that Jesus is obscured is clearly wrong, and out of line with Catholic teaching, and to be avoided. It begs the question, though, whether you don’t understand the nature of the Marian devotions in which they’re engaged, and would object to any and all Marian devotions.

Compared to this ecclectic group of Roman Catholic priests and movements, I think the Evangelical church is relatively homogenous by contrast.

Really? I’ve encountered the following doctrinal contradictions in evangelical Christianity:

1. Are you saved by grace alone and faith alone, or do works play a role in salvation?
2. Can one lose salvation, or is salvation eternally secured?
3. Is baptism required for salvation, or is it simply an act of obedience to Christ?
4. Does baptism effect a change in the soul of the one being baptized, or is it merely symbolic?
5. Are tongues evidence of one who is truly saved, or are they a sign for non-believers, or are they no longer a valid sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit? Are they even needed, or authentic?
6. Is there a ‘real presence’ of Christ in holy communion, or is it a merely symbolic remembrance of him?
7. Church membership, or free association of mostly like-minded believers?
8. Ordained, formally educated ministry, or any ol’ Joe with a Bible and a pulpit?
9. Are tithes required, or only a minimum standard? Must you tithe a literal 10% to be a member of a local congregation?

How can you possibly say evangelicals are more uniform in their beliefs?

Great post. But be prepared for the avalanche…

Avalanche of pointing out contradictions in his argument, yes.

 

[AlegreFe]

The Roman Catholic Church is as confusing in its diversity as the Evangelical Church, if not more so.

For example, I live in Madrid, Spain. If I want to join a local Roman Catholic parish in my barrio, I can choose between various parishes led by the following priests:

1. A traditionalist: a member of Opus Dei who believes that the church should focus on reaching the centres of earthly power
2. A charismatic homosexual who believes in the legitimacy of homosexual sex
3. A moral relativist, who thinks the Vatican is out of step with modern Spain and argues for women priests
4. A Brazilian liberation theologist, who speaks much about social justice but little about heaven
5. An ailing octagenarian, who is theologically orthodox but puts even hyperactive children to sleep

Which parish should I choose? Not so easy.

Now, it gets even more confusing. If I want to join one of the many communities in these parishes, I can join:

1. The Neo Catecumenals, who conduct private masses, and think I should move to the poor neighbourhood
2. The Charismatic Renewal, which believes I should speak in tongues
3. Opus Dei, who are into mortification and santification through professional work and want me to tithe my earnings directly to them
4. Various Marian groups, that talk a lot about Mary but who speak very little about a personal relationship with Jesus

Compared to this ecclectic group of Roman Catholic priests and movements, I think the Evangelical church is relatively homogenous by contrast.

People are different and have different needs and tastes. Hence, the large number of Evangelical churches. I think this is a strength and one of the main reasons that 40%+ Americans are in church on a given Sunday versus only 15% of people in Spain, where the Catholic church has traditionally had a monopoly.

:whacky: Oh my goodness, I don’t have time for this right now. This post is something from another world.

I’m sleepy. :yawn:

 

[AlegreFe]

Great post. But be prepared for the avalanche…

Big avalanche! http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Laughing.gif

 

[Nan_S]

yeh, good old VBS… with lots of patience, we might even see a good one some summer… you know, where the kids might learn in one week as much as their homeschooled “peers” learn every day… instead of an “arts-n-crafts” week with a little non-denom flavor tossed in.

By the way… can you guess my opinions on VBS vs child care/baby sitting?

VBS is what you make it to be. Our Catholic VBS rocks!

In our Catholic church we don’t use VBS to go rowing down the Amazon river in search of the One True God (even though that VBS package did come with a cool t-shirt).

Instead, we role-play the lives of the saints and important people from the bible for the kids. Each summer we pick a group and profile 5 important people from that set.

So in the past few years our kids have gotten to personally meet and learn about:
Abraham, Moses, Ruth, Peter, Paul, Judith, Esther, several Marys…

St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, St. Patrick, St. Clare, St. Francis of Assisi, Fr. Damien, Blessed Katerina, …

Just to name a few.

It’s not a pre-canned package. We study the biographies, then dress in costume and become the people we are presenting. The kids’ enrollment and attendance numbers are incredible.

Yes, we have music and crafts too. Our t-shirts are pretty lame, but everyone gets one anyway.

At the end of the week the kids put on a musical presentation for their parents, and the saints, still in costume, give a brief bio of themselves to the parents. So we end up teaching the kids and their parents.

Oh yes, our Catholic VBS rocks!

 

[tspoonfan]

What’s the difference between the CC and a “Bible Believing Church??”

I was in an RCIA class (I belong to a Baptist Church) and was taught that the Bible, although inspired by God it is also a human endeavor and therefore contains errors.

Yet the Catechsim in sections 107 and 136 say that they teach WITHOUT error.

I’m confused. What’s the position of the CC? The Catechism seems to say that the CC is a “Bible Believing Church” and my RCIA Group (in a Catholic Parish) says they are not.
JR

 

[AlegreFe]

VBS is what you make it to be. Our Catholic VBS rocks!

In our Catholic church we don’t use VBS to go rowing down the Amazon river in search of the One True God (even though that VBS package did come with a cool t-shirt).

Instead, we role-play the lives of the saints and important people from the bible for the kids. Each summer we pick a group and profile 5 important people from that set.

So in the past few years our kids have gotten to personally meet and learn about:
Abraham, Moses, Ruth, Peter, Paul, Judith, Esther, several Marys…

St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, St. Patrick, St. Clare, St. Francis of Assisi, Fr. Damien, Blessed Katerina, …

Just to name a few.

It’s not a pre-canned package. We study the biographies, then dress in costume and become the people we are presenting. The kids’ enrollment and attendance numbers are incredible.

Yes, we have music and crafts too. Our t-shirts are pretty lame, but everyone gets one anyway.

At the end of the week the kids put on a musical presentation for their parents, and the saints, still in costume, give a brief bio of themselves to the parents. So we end up teaching the kids and their parents.

Oh yes, our Catholic VBS rocks!

Wow, what a cool VBS!! I wish it was like that with ours. But then again the kids there are not to enthused in the first place to even bother going to VBS. I guess I would blame the parents on that one. And we don’t have very many volunteers that would start something exciting like that.