How do I debunk this?

[Angainor]

“Sola Scriptura,” and the boldface statement, **“Protestants do not ‘put soley their own selves in charge of tradition and Biblican interpretation’,” **are not reconciliable.

Since the author is not here to defend herself, I will try.

First of all, I did not get the impression the author was defending “scriptue alone”. He fully recognized protestant “tradition” in the form of the writings of George MacDonald et al.

Secondly I see that Catholics are fond of saying “Protestants put themselves in charge of Biblical interpretation.” To that I would first ask “who else are we to put in charge?” Someone has to be “in charge”. If not ourselves, then some other human being.

Also, I don’t think that statement is exactly correct. What we do is build on the wisdom of the wise. “Truth” is a puzzle. Scripture illuminates the most important pieces, but a lot is left fuzzy. That is where the great thinkers come in. They think about the Truth and are sometimes able to clear parts of the Truth up. They do not just put a puzzle piece of the Truth out there and let it sit. They test it to see if it really does fit. They test it with their reason. They test it against other ideas that are held true. Most of all they test it for the fruit it produces.“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus by their fruit you will recognize them.” Matthew 7:15-20

 

[BibleReader]

Angainor:

Since the author is not here to defend herself, I will try.

First of all, I did not get the impression the author was defending “scriptue alone”. He fully recognized protestant “tradition” in the form of the writings of George MacDonald et al.

Secondly I see that Catholics are fond of saying “Protestants put themselves in charge of Biblical interpretation.” To that I would first ask “who else are we to put in charge?” Someone has to be “in charge”. If not ourselves, then some other human being.

Also, I don’t think that statement is exactly correct. What we do is build on the wisdom of the wise. “Truth” is a puzzle. Scripture illuminates the most important pieces, but a lot is left fuzzy. That is where the great thinkers come in. They think about the Truth and are sometimes able to clear parts of the Truth up. They do not just put a puzzle piece of the Truth out there and let it sit. They test it to see if it really does fit. They test it with their reason. They test it against other ideas that are held true. Most of all they test it for the fruit it produces.“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus by their fruit you will recognize them.” Matthew 7:15-20

Hi, Againor.

The words quoted by Valtiel are a very typical defense of sola Scripture, which I have heard in the Protestant Bible studies I have belonged to.

Also, carefully re-read the quoted author’s own words, Againor…

"Arguement against Sola Scripture is pointless because the theological views of Catholics and most Protestants conflict. The REASON Protestants do not accept many parts of Catholic tradition is because we see it as conflicting with Scripture, and when the two conflict Tradition has to go. "

Respecting who is in charge, do you really think that “Who else are we to put in charge?” was his point?

Wasn’t his point rather, “Catholics shouldn’t put Rome in Charge! Rome is not inspired!”

The problem with filling in the fuzziness by non-inspired sources is Original Sin – human alienation from God. If we don’t work with a special, inspired teaching mechanism, inspired Scripture is left isolated in a sea of Original Sin.

To get around this problem, some Protestant Bible commentators agree that the Holy Spirit must inspire individual Bible reading.

Voila: 250,000,000 Protestant “popes.”

 

[Angainor]

BibleReader:

Hi, Againor.
"Arguement against Sola Scripture is pointless because the theological views of Catholics and most Protestants conflict. The REASON Protestants do not accept many parts of Catholic tradition is because we see it as conflicting with Scripture, and when the two conflict Tradition has to go. "

Oops. Ahem. I must have sped-read over that. It is odd. He was on a roll in the beginning of his quote. He does seem to contradict himself there.

BibleReader:

Respecting who is in charge, do you really think that “Who else are we to put in charge?” was his point?

Wasn’t his point rather, “Catholics shouldn’t put Rome in Charge! Rome is not inspired!”

I have already demonstrated that I can’t be sure of his point.

My point is that someone has to be in charge, if not ourselves, then we have to let other human beings be in charge. Jesus said beware of false prophets. Unfortunately I think that means I have to view every human being as a potential false prophet, and be wary of what they are teaching me. I do not exempt any human from that just because of his title.

BibleReader:

The problem with filling in the fuzziness by non-inspired sources is Original Sin – human alienation from God. If we don’t work with a special, inspired teaching mechanism, inspired Scripture is left isolated in a sea of Original Sin.

I imagine it would be frightning to cast off the Roman security blanket. Believe me, the little voice in your head that says “what if I do have the wrong idea of God’s word” never completely goes away. It does inspire me to seek the real Truth even more though. It is a journey.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Jesus said beware of false prophets. Unfortunately I think that means I have to view every human being as a potential false prophet

The above ecclesiology is totally contrary to what Scripture asserts here:

Heb 13:17 “Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.”

Compare this to protestant ecclesiology: Obey your leaders, but only if they agree with you. If they dont’ agree with you, find another church or start your own church, because “biblically based” always means “agrees with me.”

 

[mark_a]

Third, you seem to have the wrong idea about what the “Church” is anyway. The “Church” is not some organized body of believers with certain theological leanings or opinions, the “Church” is the entire body of believers. No specific organization or group can be called the only “True Church”, to do so only serves to divide Christ’s Church even more, something you seem to be willing to do.

Concerning the above- Is the Catholic Church considered by Protestants to be part of the un-organized “entire body of believers”?

 

[Philthy]

Angainor:

(1) My point is that someone has to be in charge, if not ourselves, then we have to let other human beings be in charge. Jesus said beware of false prophets. Unfortunately I think that means (2) I have to view every human being as a potential false prophet, and be wary of what they are teaching me. I do not exempt any human from that just because of his title.I imagine it would be frightning to cast off the Roman security blanket. Believe me, (3) the little voice in your head that says “what if I do have the wrong idea of God’s word” never completely goes away. It does inspire me to seek the real Truth even more though. It is a journey.

Hi. Thanks for your comments. Please know that I don’t judge you - I only judge myself. But please allow me a couple of comments regarding your post.
See comment (1)? Your conclusion that we must let other humans beings be in charge is only partially true. In Catholicism it’s technically not a person or people who are in charge, it is the holy Spirit guiding the offices those people hold - I know that sounds like a lot of hot air from your end, but it’s technically true.
On to comment (2). Remember I said I only judge myself? It’s true, and I judge myself totally as being mostly incompetent at deciphering the truth in many biblical situations. I like to think of it as being humble - sounds better! How about you? Have you, inadvertently judged yourself as competent only because you are unable to trust others? Unfortunately your trust or lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever on your own competence to interpret scripture reliably. In other words, have you considered yourself as a false prophet or do you have good reason to believe otherwise?
On to number (3). Of course it doesn’t - we are incompetent and often wrong! What a blessing you still hear that voice and haven’t convinced yourself of your interpretive invincibility. Honestly, when you look at all the well-intentioned christians who dutifully search the Scriptures and end up with opposing viewpoints on basics like baptism, once saved always saved, real presence and just about every other doctrine, what do you conclude? Either you conclude that the bible simply isn’t as clear as some would like to make it out to be and you start heading away from Sola Scriptura, OR you decide that rather than abandon ship you can all just agree to disagree on just about everything except the most basic truth of Sola Fide - without specifically defining Fide (faith), of course, so that the unity can be maintained. That’s my perspective anyhow. Genuine, though diluted, unity to “Christ” whatever that means exactly.
I have many Protestant friends whom I consider Christians - even if my words appear strong I meant it when I said I don’t judge you.

Phil

 

[Philthy]

Angainor:

(1) My point is that someone has to be in charge, if not ourselves, then we have to let other human beings be in charge. Jesus said beware of false prophets. Unfortunately I think that means (2) I have to view every human being as a potential false prophet, and be wary of what they are teaching me. I do not exempt any human from that just because of his title.I imagine it would be frightning to cast off the Roman security blanket. Believe me, (3) the little voice in your head that says “what if I do have the wrong idea of God’s word” never completely goes away. It does inspire me to seek the real Truth even more though. It is a journey.

Hi. Thanks for your comments. Please know that I don’t judge you - I only judge myself. But please allow me a couple of comments regarding your post.
See comment (1)? Your conclusion that we must let other humans beings be in charge is only partially true. In Catholicism it’s technically not a person or people who are in charge, it is the holy Spirit guiding the offices those people hold - I know that sounds like a lot of hot air from your end, but it’s technically true.
On to comment (2). Remember I said I only judge myself? It’s true, and I judge myself totally as being mostly incompetent at deciphering the truth in many biblical situations. I like to think of it as being humble - sounds better! How about you? Have you, inadvertently judged yourself as competent only because you are unable to trust others? Unfortunately your trust or lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever on your own competence to interpret scripture reliably. In other words, have you considered yourself as a false prophet or do you have good reason to believe otherwise?
On to number (3). Of course it doesn’t - we are incompetent and often wrong! What a blessing you still hear that voice and haven’t convinced yourself of your interpretive invincibility. Honestly, when you look at all the well-intentioned christians who dutifully search the Scriptures and end up with opposing viewpoints on basics like baptism, once saved always saved, real presence and just about every other doctrine, what do you conclude? Either you conclude that the bible simply isn’t as clear as some would like to make it out to be and you start heading away from Sola Scriptura, OR you decide that rather than abandon ship you can all just agree to disagree on just about everything except the most basic truth of Sola Fide - without specifically defining Fide (faith), of course, so that the unity can be maintained. That’s my perspective anyhow. Genuine, though diluted, unity to “Christ” whatever that means exactly.
I have many Protestant friends whom I consider Christians - even if my words appear strong I meant it when I said I don’t judge you.

Phil

 

[martino]

QUOTE "First of all, you understand it wrong. Protestants do not “put soley their own selves in charge of tradition and Biblican interpretation”. "

I would ask him who they put in charge of intpreting Scritpture and Tradition and why them and not sombody else?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Angainor:

I imagine it would be frightning to cast off the Roman security blanket. Believe me, the little voice in your head that says “what if I do have the wrong idea of God’s word” never completely goes away. It does inspire me to seek the real Truth even more though. It is a journey.

Hello Angainor;

I would like to interject that at times the analogies one chooses to characterize his or her beliefs can be quite revealing. I find it “interesting” that you - as a Protestant - choose to characterize the teaching authority of the Catholic Church as a “Roman security blanket.” By this analogy you seem to imply that Catholics are spiritually “immature” if they hold fast to the doctrines the Church has consistently taught from the time of the Apostles. Just a tad condescending, don’t you think?

I could just as easily say…

As a Catholic, I see the Church as analogous to a ship that safely carries its Christian passengers through the troubled waters of Scriptural interpretation, past the Scylla and Charybdes of heresy and apostacy. Christ is our Anchor and the Holy Spirit is the wind that fills the ship’s sails. And I don’t think I’ll ever fully understand why you Protestants chose to jump overboard.

… but I’m sure this is just as inaccurate an analogy of your position as your “security blanket” analogy is to mine.

My only point is that sometimes, to learn, we have to shed our own prejudices and preconceptions. Perhaps you need to ask yourself if you are approaching the Catholic faith with your own set of misconceptions about what we are and what we believe, and that is keeping you from understanding what Catholics mean when we talk about the Church’s infallible teaching authority.

I mean no disrespect and do not question your sincerity. I concede that I am no saint, and I recognize that I have my own set of prejudices and misconceptions about other religions that I am still trying to overcome in an effort to reach true understanding. I offered the above only to help a fellow Christian on the road.

Peace and Charity,

 

[Angainor]

mark a:

Concerning the above- Is the Catholic Church considered by Protestants to be part of the un-organized “entire body of believers”?

Sincerely believing Catholic individuals are part of the “entire body of believers”.

 

[Angainor]

Philthy:

Remember I said I only judge myself? It’s true, and I judge myself totally as being mostly incompetent at deciphering the truth in many biblical situations. I like to think of it as being humble - sounds better! How about you? Have you, inadvertently judged yourself as competent only because you are unable to trust others? Unfortunately your trust or lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever on your own competence to interpret scripture reliably. In other words, have you considered yourself as a false prophet or do you have good reason to believe otherwise?
On to number

Greetings,

I do not fool myself into thinking I have all the answers. I look inside myself and see more questions than answers. I do worry about propegating false prophesy, which is why I would never put myself in a position as an authority on the truth. I look at those people who do put themselves in a position as an authority on the truth and I see men, just like me. You trust they are guided by the Holy Spirit. That is too much to ask of my young faith.

I left the Christian fold for a time. My faith regressed to a type of diesm. I had strong belief in the Creator God, and believed He desired an orderly world, but I lost all faith in all that other “Christian stuff”.

One of my first steps in coming back was to adopt Christianity’s first Creed as my own personal creed: ΙΧΘΥΣ: Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior. This was a big step for me. I believed in those five words even though I still didn’t have a clear I idea of who Jesus really was. I have grown in the faith somewhat since then, but I still regard Christianity’s first creed as the core of my faith.

I have been taking small steps since then, learning and absorbing slowly lest I take on too much and get overwhelmed. To ask me to have trust that those people like me steering the Catholic boat are divinely inspired and I should believe all their teachings is to ask me to take on too much.

Not only is it asking me to take on too much, but I also see it as a distraction from my real goal. You are asking me to put my faith, hope, and trust into the hands of the institution of the Catholic Church. I feel I should be putting my faith, hope, and trush in God himself, and his Son.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Angainor:

You are asking me to put my faith, hope, and trust into the hands of the institution of the Catholic Church. I feel I should be putting my faith, hope, and trush in God himself, and his Son.

Dear Angainor;

There is no dichotomy. (No EITHER Church OR God.) That false dichotomy is only what you were taught to believe by people who were sincere but misguided about the nature of the Catholic Church. Catholics believe - and history supports the conclusion that - the only institution that has lasted through the ages from Christ to the present - just as He promised is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that was instituted by Christ and built upon St. Peter. It has existed as a living, breathing institution in an unbroken line of successors down to John Paul II. To join Christ’s Church is to move closer to God by opening yourself to its Sacraments that provide grace for salvation. The Church is not standing between God and humanity like some miserly landlord. The Church is the doorway to Heaven.

Study Church history free from your preconceptions and you may be surprised by what you discover.

-Peace

 

[Philthy]

Angainor:

Greetings,

I do not fool myself into thinking I have all the answers. I look inside myself and see more questions than answers. I do worry about propegating false prophesy, which is why I would never put myself in a position as an authority on the truth. I look at those people who do put themselves in a position as an authority on the truth and I see men, just like me. You trust they are guided by the Holy Spirit. That is too much to ask of my young faith.

I left the Christian fold for a time. My faith regressed to a type of diesm. I had strong belief in the Creator God, and believed He desired an orderly world, but I lost all faith in all that other “Christian stuff”.

One of my first steps in coming back was to adopt Christianity’s first Creed as my own personal creed: ΙΧΘΥΣ: Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior. This was a big step for me. I believed in those five words even though I still didn’t have a clear I idea of who Jesus really was. I have grown in the faith somewhat since then, but I still regard Christianity’s first creed as the core of my faith.

I have been taking small steps since then, learning and absorbing slowly lest I take on too much and get overwhelmed. To ask me to have trust that those people like me steering the Catholic boat are divinely inspired and I should believe all their teachings is to ask me to take on too much.

Not only is it asking me to take on too much, but I also see it as a distraction from my real goal. You are asking me to put my faith, hope, and trust into the hands of the institution of the Catholic Church. I feel I should be putting my faith, hope, and trush in God himself, and his Son.

Sounds like you are doing well! Keep pressing for truth. I have a feeling that when you find the Truth you will see that it is not a distraction away from your “ultimate goal of faith, hope, and trust in God”, but that it is a means for you to understand each of those things more fully and that God put it there for you for that very reason…

Phil

 

[mark_a]

Angainor:

Sincerely believing Catholic individuals are part of the “entire body of believers”.

Thanks-

I find that surprising. Do most Protestants believe this? If so, what’s the bid deal with the thrashing we take here?

It seems similar to our belief that the baptised are part of the Catholic Church whether they realize or accept it or don’t.

 

[Exporter]

Valtiel http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_446925”, true);
Junior Member

You Started This Thread, WHAT’S YOUR QUESTION?

 

[Angainor]

Sincerely believing Catholic individuals are part of the “entire body of believers”.

mark a:

I find that surprising. Do most Protestants believe this?

Those with the view that The Church as the “entire body of believers” do, which I think is most of them. Why is it so surprising? Have Protestants done anything to make you think otherwise?
mark a:

If so, what’s the bid deal with the thrashing we take here?

Thrashings against Catholic individuals is uncalled-for, and I hope I am not guilty of that.

Thrashings directed at the Catholic Church (CC) itself? Is it really a mystery? The CC proclaims our practice of the Lord’s Supper will never amout to anything. Not mainly because we do not do it correctly, but because the correct people are not doing it. “You need our priests” it says. “Your feeble attempts at following the Lord’s command ‘do this in rememberance of me’ amount to nothing.” “You need us to find the way.” It starts out spitting in our eye, before the discussion even starts.

The Lutheran Church (LC) says “follow us, we can help you find you’re way.” The LC does not say “you cannot find the way without us.”

 

[mark_a]

Angainor:
Those with the view that The Church as the “entire body of believers” do, which I think is most of them. Why is it so surprising? Have Protestants done anything to make you think otherwise? Some have. If you’ll notice, many (not all) Protestants post here with an attitude, seemingly to straighten us out.

Just curious, do you see a lot of Catholics that start out looking for a fight on Protestant boards?

Angainor:
Thrashings against Catholic individuals is uncalled-for, and I hope I am not guilty of that. You are an exception. Thanks.

Angainor:
Thrashings directed at the Catholic Church (CC) itself? Is it really a mystery? The CC proclaims our practice of the Lord’s Supper will never amout to anything. Not mainly because we do not do it correctly, but because the correct people are not doing it. “You need our priests” it says. “Your feeble attempts at following the Lord’s command ‘do this in rememberance of me’ amount to nothing.” “You need us to find the way.” It starts out spitting in our eye, before the discussion even starts.

Point taken. I hope these words are a rare exception. I normally see or hear Catholics in (what starts out to be) a defensive posture concerning theological differences.

Angainor:
The Lutheran Church (LC) says “follow us, we can help you find you’re way.” The LC does not say "you cannot find the way without us."Funny you would say that, because that’s pretty much sums up what I would have told you about our church.

 

[papist1]

So hold fast to the traditions which have been handeddon to you both by word of mouth or written epistle. 2 thess 2:15

The greatest form of Sacred Tradition, is the canon of scripture itself.

The Bible NO WHERE lists which letters belong and are inspired and which are not inspired.

The Catholic Church wrote the new testament, proteted it, translated it and studied it along with the other vast amounts of supposed scripture claimed to be inspired and they canonized it in 382, 393 and 397 ad.

There were over 20,000 documents to decide from and it was no easy task, and there also was no known canon before this time. There was not a book(biblia) called the Bible(biblia) until 382ad.

God chose His one and only Church that He built upon cephas(rock) to canonize the scriptures. Martin Luther admitted that if it were not for the papists(catholics) we would not have the Bible.

The only thing that develops in sacred tradition, is the factor of time and meeting the time(age) with the appropriate addition to the tradition without changing the meaning of it. Sacred Tradition never changes to mean anything else.

 

[Angainor]

mark a:

Just curious, do you see a lot of Catholics that start out looking for a fight on Protestant boards

No, but then I don’t really know what grievance Catholics today would have against Protestant Churches, you might know more about that than me.
mark a:

Point taken. I hope these words are a rare exception.

Yes, well, I allowed myself to be a little blunt because the topic was why a Protestant might want to direct thrashings at the Catholic Church. I thought a colorful illustration might help.

 

[mark_a]

Angainor:

No, but then I don’t really know what grievance Catholics today would have against Protestant Churches, you might know more about that than me.Yes, well, I allowed myself to be a little blunt because the topic was why a Protestant might want to direct thrashings at the Catholic Church. I thought a colorful illustration might help.

This thread is probably not the place for it, but since I have your attention, I’d like to ask . . . . .

In your opinion, where did we Catholics go wrong? We sometimes present the reformation as: “everything was just fine until Martin Luther. . . . .”

I’ve read mostly Protestant material about the reformation. My take on Martin Luther is that he was so upset (and rightfully so) with some the abuses happening in the Catholic Church, that he removed potential causes of the abuses from scripture.

Am I loopy?