How do I explain to someone being 90% naked is immoral

[BobObob]

Part 2/2

“St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church, admitting that a *limited *measure of immodest exposure can cease to be a grave snare to people who have grown use to it, adds that those who first introduce it when it is a grave snare, sin gravely, and he makes it clear that there are limits beyond which customariness does not remove the grave snare. The holy office under Pius IX favored this view, requiring the adoption of some body coverage, in the interest of modesty, of savages who wish to become Catholic.”

so even though it may become the norm, to introduce it is a grave sin, and it is only limitedly acceptable,
and even though it was the norm, they were still required to take on more modest dress if they wished to become Catholic.

I’d say that I largely disagree with St. Alphonsus Liguori in the sense that I think particular customs regarding the exposure of the human body are not morally evil per se. Customs regarding clothing are morally evil, IMHO, only to the extent that they disrespect the body (or cause other problems, such as tempting others to sin).

Also, I’m guessing that for most cultures that permit great or even full exposure of the human body, that there were no particular people or generation which formally introduced it. It was probably how things have been for thousands of years for some cultures, deriving their customs only by very gradual changes.

Also, a pope requiring a certain coverage of the body is a matter of Church discipline, rather than doctrine, such as the mandate for the practice of priestly celibacy.

well, it is common in Japan for families to bathe together, to see eachother naked, and it is done in a clean and casual manner,
however, Japan has more problems with porn then most others, and they also have high percentages of rape,
the idea of introducing nudity to a society in the way you are saying is really nothing new, it has been attempted, and failed miserably,
i think one place that tried was Poland, which as a result ended up only becoming more perverted and immoral then any other country.

I’ve heard about this practice in Japan, as well as the sexual immorality there. I’m certainly no expert on their culture, but I think there are plenty of other problems they have there to contribute to sexual immorality, such as their spirituality (worldreligion.nielsonpi.com/16japan.html ) and high-stress lives (extremely high suicide rates). I have also recently heard that they are often stricter when it comes to sexual morality (answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080125214503AAjZKP6 ), so I’m really not sure what to think of this (I don’t know enough about that culture).

I haven’t heard of whatever you’re referring to in Poland.

Based on this, I wouldn’t say that “it has been attempted, and failed miserably.” Overall, it seems that countries in which there is less casual nudity, there are more problems with lust and porn.

here’s the basic facts - nudity can and does effect people in a negative way that can be and is deadly to the soul, whereas modesty does not effect anyone in a negative way, and is not a cause for temptation at all,
so in my humble opinion, modesty is the safer more reasonable route.

I don’t think that opposing all forms of nudity “does not effect anyone in a negative way.” Again, I think culture where they don’t freak out over occasional, situational, casual, nudity tend to have less problems with the human body, including less problems with porn and lust.

Of course, other factors that may contribute other than dress should be controlled for when analyzing cultures to see what works.

 

[seanflynn]

What are the rules of modesty for a man?

I’m thinking this may have been a facetious/rhetorical question, but I have a real answer for you.

Basically, what the immodest woman is doing is intending an attraction to her in someone she is not in a committed relationship with. Since women do not respond to the viewing of bodies the same way men do, our (men’s) modesty takes a very different form.

It is not prudent to reveal emotional scars with women you are not interested in being in a relationship with (and kind of a stealthy, and possibly manipulative, shortcut if it’s a woman you are trying to attract), especially if the two of you are alone, because it causes women to share the emotion and empathize with you. It can create a bond, or attraction. Men should be modest in their words and emotions more than their appearance, because these are what get women’s motors running, so to speak. We don’t have to be stoics, but *revealing *ourselves too much emotionally is like the woman *revealing *herself too much physically.

This may sound like hogwash, but it has been true in my life, and I didn’t come up with it on my own.

Also, EmeraldWing’s comment on saving souls now, in the culture we find ourselves in, trumps anything about the possible unnatural uptightness of our cultrue.

Sorry about ending so many clauses with prepositions, it’s 2:30am and I’m going to bed now.

 

[MikiBee]

Thank you, Sean, for your reply. It really wasn’t meant to be facetious. I am a “returning” Catholic and there is SO much that seems totally new to me. I find it amazing that in all my life I had never heard of so many of these Catholic teachings.

I started coming to these forums a couple of years ago during a spiritual crisis (so to speak), because I began to become interested in coming back to the Church.

I come here now, almost with one eye shut, because I’m wondering what in my life that I have been doing up until now that I thought was perfectly normal and okay is actually a sin. It’s quite scary! Now to come here and find out that I could quite be committing a MORTAL sin by wearing pants???, much less tank tops, swim suits, shorts… etc. My intention has never been to draw a man’s attraction. I have been married for almost 20 years now, and I don’t have the best body in the world… My main reason for wearing comfortable clothes is because I don’t like to be hot-- so I wear shorts and tank tops. I literally don’t know anyone here that doesn’t (central Texas). It never crossed my mind that all the people I see in my daily life were dressing immodestly. Yes, I have seen some outfits and swim suits that cross that line, but by and large, I hang out with people who are like me… 40 somethings with kids that care more for comfort than for fashion.

I would hope that God certainly knows that I am not wearing T shirts and shorts in the summer, and a swim suit when I go to the lake or pool to bring attention to myself in any way. Quite the contrary, I like to blend in so as NOT to stand out in a crowd. After 3 kids, I am a little pudgy, and certainly wouldn’t want anyone, especially a man, to be looking at me, and I’m quite certain they are not. In fact, if I were to wear a skirt/dress and long sleeves, I would absolutely stand out and draw attention to myself.

When I asked about men, it was purely curiosity. I was thinking “what else don’t I know?” I know you are speaking from a man’s perspective, but trust me, women definitely are attracted to certain parts of a man’s body. I know men have the reputation for being visual, but many, many women are as well. Personally, I have to avert my eyes when I see men that I am attracted to because I know my eyes will linger a little longer than they should. So that is why I asked. I realize it sounded snarky, but I figured there would be rules for men as well.

 

[BobObob]

Regarding the issue of saving souls now in this culture where nudity always seems to cause lust, the following academic research article says that:

“The author’s conclusions regarding the psychological effects of social nudism, based on his personal experiences in a German nudist colony…show that the taboo is quickly broken, that shame and modesty reactions are completely reversed, and that the shock response quickly disappears and along with it exhibitionism and inspectionism; and eroticism is not stimulated.”

psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1933-02865-001&CFID=9249663&CFTOKEN=16651498

That quote was only from the abstract (you have to pay for the entire article). However, it shows that the danger of nudism for those who aren’t used to it, may disappear much more quickly than we think, and actually may help reduce lust.

Also, nudity could be practiced more in certain places that people don’t have to go, and would usually expect more nudity (such as beaches). This way, people can go if its not a problem for them, but if it is a problem for them, and they do go, they know what they’re getting into and it’s their fault.

One may argue that in doing this (having more nudity in particular areas like beaches) may be a temptation for perverts who are looking for bodies to lust after. However, it would take less effort for such perverts to just find porn on unfiltered internet browsers.

 

[seanflynn]

Thank you, Sean, for your reply. It really wasn’t meant to be facetious. I am a “returning” Catholic and there is SO much that seems totally new to me. I find it amazing that in all my life I had never heard of so many of these Catholic teachings.

You are welcome. My answer isn’t necessarily a “Catholic teaching,” as handed down from Christ or the Vatican, but it was presented to me in training for a long-term, co-ed Catholic mission. The men and women aren’t allowed to get involved with each other romantically during the mission, so both sexes are given advice on how not to be immodest in any way, so as not to further tempt those who may be interested in you.

Now to come here and find out that I could quite be committing a MORTAL sin by wearing pants???,

Neither you, nor I, nor any person, can commit a mortal sin accidentally, or without knowing about it. Wearing pants could be (but I wouldn’t consider many kinds of pants a sin against modesty) a sin of grave matter. A mortal sin is a sin of grave matter that is commited with full knowledge of the gravity of the sin, and with full consent of the will. So don’t worry about the specific sins you unknowingly committed in your 40+ years on this wonderful planet. But if you do know of sins now, do your best to avoid them, the near occasion of them, and to confess them!