How do i get to heaven

  • Thread starter Thread starter Socrates4Jesus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
twf said:
We are certainly saved by grace alone…but not by faith alone. I assume you agree that we must accept Christ through repentance and faith to be saved. If so, then you agree that humans must do something to be saved. Obviously we are not saved because of what we did (faith, repentance, acceptance) but because of Christ’s grace; however, we must co-operate with God and be willing to receive this grace. So far I assume you agree with me. Thus, you already believe that humans must do something to be saved, and as accepting and believing in Chris take effort (of will, mind, even if it is for a moment), it is, in a certain sense, a work. … Socrates: Why is mental effort not a work? Would you not agree that ‘good works’ include worshipping God through prayer and praise? These can often be limited to ‘mental effort’. Mental repentance and believe takes effort, just like working at a soup kitchen takes effort. In the grand scheme of things, why would there be a distinction?
Click to expand...

twf:

Good question, that!

I think i have to fall back on an example, because i’m too simple minded to articulate my thoughts, here:

Lets say some stranger i meet on a street corner holds out an envelope to me & says, “There’s $100,000.00 in here for you. It’s my own money & i want you to have it. Take it.”

I might ask, “What do i have to do to earn it?”

His reply might be, “Nothing, just take it.”

The way i see it, i have the freedom to accept or reject his offer. If i accept the envelope from him, i’ve really haven’t done anything good to merit it. I’ve simply put my trust in the one who gave it to me.

I think of repentance this way. Once i was lost in my own wickedness, doing things my way regardless of what God thought. Then i came to the realization that what i was doing was wrong, that i could not continue running in the opposite direction of God & call myself a Christian.

Even Jesus himself prayed, “Not my will, but Thy will be done.” So i came to the realization that without making a U-turn in the road of my life, i could not really trust Christ as my own Savior. I had to make a choice: to love my sin, or Him, more.

Now that decision is good, but i’m not so sure it is a good deed. Simply realizing i’ve been living a lie & making a decision that i have to make a change–to me that’s no more a good work than accepting the truth that 2 + 2 = 4. Coming to the realization that God is real & really cares–i also think these were not good deeds on my part but just realizing the truth. Understanding that the Bible has the very words of God because it is the only book in all history that accurately predicts the future 100% of the time–there is nothing good i’ve done by accepting that truth, either.

Like Mother Teresa (i think it was) said, “Once you see truth, you cannot unsee it.” To reject a truth once i know it is true would be an evil deed. But to accept a truth, it seems to me, is not a good deed–it’s just good sense.

I hope that answers your question. If i’m missing something, please try to help me see.
 
"This, to me, is an example of making it to heaven without doing any good works. The man could not be baptized or partake in Holy Communion. He did not even confess His sins & need to be forgiven (though in His mind he may have done so). "
Remember, it was the thief, not Jesus, who initiates the conversation. The thief acts, and Jesus responds. Remember how God blessed Cornelius for his fear of God, and his devotion ( Acts 10), in the same way God blesses the thief. The thief not only shows faith, but action. The thief already showed he had faith in God, and a healthy case of fear of God, which he expressed to the other thief. He put his faith into *action* by reaching out to Jesus "in perfect contrition, however limited he was in doing so. Had he not reached out, he would have been condemned just like the unrepentant thief who remained silent.
 
Socrates4Jesus: As well the Church teaches that ‘death bed’ conversions are possible. The condition that good works must follow baptism only applies when you have a chance to do such.

I’m going to include some Scriptures in the next few posts…that show the great importance of works. Notice that in these Scriptures Christ makes these works the ‘why’ we get into Heaven, in many cases (though, of course, we know that grace is the only reason, ultimately, for us to get into heaven…not faith nor works).

OK, I see where you are going with the $100 000 analogy, but your reasoning (with all due respect) is still flawed, I believe. Good works have nothing to do with earning salvation. There is NO way we could ‘make up’ for our sins. Salvation remains a free gift. Please re-read my first post on this thread on grace and works. I’ll give you an example using the $100 000 scenerio.

So the guy comes up to you and says: I know you are doomed to die unless I give you $100 000. There is nothing you can do to earn this money, because it is far more than you could ever earn or make; however, you must freely accept it. Now, for the rest of your life, you’ll need my money to survive. So I’m going to continue to give you money throughout your life…but only if you ask, and only if you respond by using the money. I can’t ask you to earn it, but I do ask you to take my money and to use it, because if you do not use it, it is of no use to you, and you might as well have never taken it in the first place.

Again though, simply taking the money takes an effort. Seeing the truth takes an effort. So if it is that there is nothing we can do, then we should not even need to respond, the money should suddenly be in our bank account without us having to do anything at all (which would take away free choice).

You see, the works themselves do not save us, it is Christ’s grace that saves us; however, Christ’s grace gives us the ability to perform these works, and to be pleasing to God. The works are the fruit of the grace Christ gave us (along with faith), and is simply us responding to God’s grace, choosing to accept it. If we are doing no works, that means we are not receiving Christ’s grace. What good is grace if nothing comes of it? What good is us accepting Christ if we do not become like Christ? If we do not use Christ’s grace, that means that after that initial moment of conversion, we are perpetually refusing Christ’s grace…so we must always be receiving it, not just once, but many times. These works, when done within Christ’s grace, are the fruits of this gift, and Christ’s work is then applied to us making our works worthy of God. These works become pleasing to God and play an important role in the justification process, but we can not take credit for them, because they are the natural fruit of the grace freely given to us. We must choose to live out our salvation, to accept Christ’s grace throughout our lives. If we do not co-operate with God, He will respect our decision (though He will ask us to continue to co-operate!) and we will be damned (unless we repent later!).

Again I highly recommend Dave Armstrong’s book “A Biblical Defence of Catholicism”. You can get it for only $6 in .doc format. His site is ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM.
 
Socrates: I’d just like to ask you, are you a Catholic? If you are, I assume you’ve spent a lot of time with Evangelicals? Forgive me if my assumptions are incorrect. If you are Catholic, do you accept the authority of the sucessors of the apostles, the bishops? Do you trust the Spirit to guide these sucessors of the apostles into all truth?

Anyway, please go here usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm. (This is the Catechism of the Catholic Church). Read the Chuch’s teaching on justification, from the wisdom the Spirit has given Her. We can not lean on our own understandings…and my knowledge of theology is limited and flawed, so I must submit to the infinite wisdom of the Spirit as manifested through Holy Mother Church.
 
In the other thread, I noticed some talk about the Pauline writings. Other posters already demonstrated that Paul also emphasizes the importance of continuing in Christ’s grace and keeping from mortal sin…but I’d like to point out two more things. A) Paul sometimes speaks of how the works of the Law are meaningless towards are salvation (we have to consider the context)
B) Paul emphasizes faith because faith is our initial consent to God’s grace, but this faith leads to works.
 
Now I’m going to post some passages that show the importance of works.
*21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ *
(Matthew 7:21-23, NIV®)

If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.
(John 14:15, ASV).
Good works flow naturally from faith. They two are inseparable.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.(John 15:10, ASV).

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? [NOTE: see belief is not enough by itself)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; [note: works perfect our initial faith…it is all part of the salvation process, God grants us the grace, from the work of Christ, to help us co-operate with His salvation plan)
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. [Note: We are saved through faith and works, not just faith alone, even though it is all because of grace alone)
25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
(James 2:14-26, emphasis added).
This was is pretty clear to me. Protestants will often say that it just means that works are the natural outcome of true faith, so that if you do not have works, then you never had faith in the first place…but just read the passage, it seems pretty clear that James is saying that works are essential, yes they do flow from faith, but they are necessary as well, so that means they are part of the salvation process. Protestants also say that when James says you are not justified by faith alone, he means before men, not God (implying that faith alone justifies you before God), but why make that assumption? Paul never said we are saved only by faith, he said only by grace through faith…and true faith includes works. Is there any real reason to believe that when James says “justification“ he means something different than Paul?
Note: Works outside of grace do nothing for our salvation…these works are those that flow from the grace God has given us, they have nothing to do with earning salvation, but are steps in our road to perfection…they are the continuation of our decision to co-operate with God and receive His free gift of salvation/grace.*
 
*“…for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.” * (Ephesians 2:8-10). This famous verse, often used to refute the Catholic teaching, does not teach that we are saved by faith alone, it is only through faith that we are saved, that is the initial step, but that faith naturally leads to other works (faith without works is dead, remember). The Church teaches that sola gracia (by grace alone) is true, but not sola fide (faith alone). We can take no credit even for the works of charity we do…for they would be useless (in salvation) if not for God’s grace and if they do not flow from our grace-given faith.

Often when Paul talks about justification, he tells us that it is not by works…but we must remember that 1) We are not saved because of works, they are only the natural progression after faith and grace 2) Paul is often talking about the works of the Law that we no longer must complete…they can do nothing for our salvation. This is often the context, as a number of early Christians subscribed (or were influenced) to a heresy that taught that we should still abide by the Law of Moses. For instance, in Romans 3:20 Paul clearly says “works of the law”, not works of charity which flow from grace: …because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.
3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and so shall ye be my disciples.
(John 15:1-8).
Keep in mind that fruit=good works that flow from grace-empowered faith

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, who would make a reckoning with his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, that owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not wherewith to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 And the lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But that servant went out, and found one of his fellow-servants, who owed him a hundred shillings: and he laid hold on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay what thou owest.
29 So his fellow-servant fell down and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay that which was due.
31 So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were exceeding sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord called him unto him, and saith to him, Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou besoughtest me:
33 shouldest not thou also have had mercy on thy fellow-servant, even as I had mercy on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due.
35 So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.
(Matthew 18:23-35). This man was clearly ‘saved’ or justified initially (a Christian) but he didn’t forgive his brother…which is another work in a sense (though again, made possible by God’s grace). This is necessary, not just recommend.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(Matthew 6:14-15). Our Lord affirms here as well that it is necessary to forgive your brother.
 
14 For it is as when a man, going into another country, called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went on his journey.
16 Straightway he that received the five talents went and traded with them, and made other five talents.
17 In like manner he also that received the two gained other two.
18 But he that received the one went away and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19 Now after a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them.
20 And he that received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: lo, I have gained other five talents.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 And he also that received the two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: lo, I have gained other two talents.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering where thou didst not scatter;
25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own.
26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I did not scatter;
27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.
28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away.
30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
(Matthew 25:14-46)
This clearly emphasizes the importance of works. The servant who received one talent was a Christian because he received the talent and is called a servant…yet it is unfruitful and he is damned at judgement. (Faith without works is dead). Then Jesus goes on, and see how those so-called Christians that had barren faith (led to no works…so dead faith) were damned.
 
6 And he spake this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit thereon, and found none.
7 And he said unto the vinedresser, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why doth it also cumber the ground?
8 And he answering saith unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 and if it bear fruit thenceforth, well; but if not, thou shalt cut it down.
(Luke 13:6-9). Again we see the monumental importance of works…the tree (Christian) that bears no fruit (grace-empowered good works) is eventually ‘cut down’.
 
Here is an example taken from Roslyn Moss.

Suppose you were in high school and told your parents you wanted to go to college and it would cost $50,000. Your parents discussed it and said that they would pay for your college, IF you kept your room clean, did your other house hold chores, and kept your B+ grade average.

If you did all those things, did you earn $50,000? Only because of the gift of your parents. It is obvious that if you did not do them, you would not ‘merit’ the gift.
 
twf said:
*“…for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.” *(Ephesians 2:8-10). This famous verse, often used to refute the Catholic teaching, does not teach that we are saved by faith alone, it is only through faith that we are saved, that is the initial step, but that faith naturally leads to other works (faith without works is dead, remember). The Church teaches that sola gracia (by grace alone) is true, but not sola fide (faith alone). We can take no credit even for the works of charity we do…for they would be useless (in salvation) if not for God’s grace and if they do not flow from our grace-given faith.

Often when Paul talks about justification, he tells us that it is not by works…but we must remember that 1) We are not saved because of works, they are only the natural progression after faith and grace 2) Paul is often talking about the works of the Law that we no longer must complete…they can do nothing for our salvation. This is often the context, as a number of early Christians subscribed (or were influenced) to a heresy that taught that we should still abide by the Law of Moses. For instance, in Romans 3:20 Paul clearly says “works of the law”, not works of charity which flow from grace: …because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin…
Click to expand...

twf:

Wow! Thanks for devoting so much time. Sorry i did not get to your posts, sooner. I guess i have a few questions:
  1. Since we are not saved from hell by works, then why do you & others seem to be saying that the good works i do will help merit (or earn) my entrance into heaven?
  2. If St. Paul was speaking only of the ceremonial law (circumcision, not eating lobster, etc.) then why does he write this?
“What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, ‘Do not covet.’ … So, then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.” (Romans 7:7, 12)
  1. Isn’t St. Paul talking about the 10 commandments, here–the same commandments that all Catholics should obey?
  2. If the answer to 3 is “yes” then could i not understand Romans chapter 4 to say this?
“Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not rely on his good works, such as not coveting, but trusts only God who justifies the wicked, his trust is credited to him as righteousness.” (verses 4-5, paraphrased)

I am still having trouble understanding why St. Paul would call righteousness a gift (Romans 5:17) if it is something i have to work to earn. It makes more sense to me to say that Jesus Christ lived the perfect life that i could never possibly live & offers it to me as an absolutely free gift.

That realization also has the benefit of making me free in Christ to do good things for Him & others, not out of fear of losing heaven but out of gratitude for having received life with Him free of charge.

I agree we should continue the conversation in the other post called “Ticket to heaven.” I hope to read more of your posts there.

Blessings to you,
Christopher
 
  1. Hear the Word of God
  2. Believe the Word of God
3)Understand the Word of God by submitting yourself to the authority of the Apostles in the Catholic Church and enter into authentic sacramental life so you can move beyond good and become Holy.

There is no other way to enter heaven once you have come to know this revealed truth. It is folly to speak of entering heaven by choosing a faith that rejects Jesus Christ. There is no doctrine that says you are saved by baptism and you are equally saved if you are ignorrant of baptism.

Those that have not heard of Jesus may be saved but God has not told us how that is possible. There is no “Plan B” taught by Jesus.

It is our profound hope that all will be saved because God loves all even the most dreadful sinner, me. However never forget that Jesus taught the path to hell is well travelled and wide yet the path to heaven is narrow and lightly trod.

God Bless
 
NorthernBrother:
…There is no doctrine that says you are saved by baptism and you are equally saved if you are ignorrant of baptism. Those that have not heard of Jesus may be saved but God has not told us how that is possible. There is no “Plan B” taught by Jesus…
Click to expand...
Thanks, Brother.

Will you tell me why you believe the act of baptism is necessary for salvation?

At the present, i believe every Christian should be baptized out of an act of obedience to Christ, but that baptism does not help to achieve salvation. I’m interested in hearing what you have to say.
 
Certainly there is a great deal that can be said about the means of salvation, and I don’t disparage the usefulness of theological discussion on this issue. But here is what Jesus himself says about the last judgment in scripture. He’s dividing everyone into two groups. One group gets into heaven, the other group doesn’t. I believe that salvation is from the Grace of God, freely given to us. But Jesus doesn’t seem to make light of what we do here on earth. Rather, He makes it a critical issue. I don’t want to be in a position of arguing salvation theology with the Lord while he asking me what I’ve done for my least brethren: (Matthew 25:31-46)

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
 
40.png
JimG:
Certainly there is a great deal that can be said about the means of salvation, and I don’t disparage the usefulness of theological discussion on this issue. But here is what Jesus himself says about the last judgment in scripture. He’s dividing everyone into two groups. One group gets into heaven, the other group doesn’t. I believe that salvation is from the Grace of God, freely given to us. But Jesus doesn’t seem to make light of what we do here on earth. Rather, He makes it a critical issue. I don’t want to be in a position of arguing salvation theology with the Lord while he asking me what I’ve done for my least brethren: (Matthew 25:31-46)… “Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Click to expand...
Thank you, JimG.

These words of our Lord have always stuck with me since the time i first heard them in a Catholic school (i attended “church school” there once a week as a child). I think the words were quoted during a documentary film on Mother Teresa, though i’m not sure.

There is no doubt that Christ desires us to do good works, for he said, “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and do not do what I say?” I’d even agree that people who call themselves followers of Jesus but live more like the devil are really lying to others (& possibly deceived themselves). I’m even sure that Christians will be rewarded for the good things they do–that there will be degrees of reward in heaven & even degrees of punishment in hell.

Is it possible that this is what Jesus is saying here? I mean, entrance into heaven is a gift, but perhaps the kind of “treasures” we have in heaven are a reward?

I think you might agree that even Gandhi, with all the good deeds he did, might not enter heaven if he knew Christ was his only Savior but refused to put his trust in Him anyway. Isn’t it possible that even Gandhi might be a goat?

I think that may be the point Jesus is making. St. Paul seemed to say as much when he called himself one of the best of the Pharisees, but admitted that he was still hell-bent before he repented & put his faith in our Savior & Lord.

What do you think?
 
40.png
Socrates4Jesus:
Will you tell me why you believe the act of baptism is necessary for salvation?
Click to expand...
Because Scripture so commands:

John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16, Col 2:11-13, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:26-27, Titus 3:5, and 1 Peter 3:21.

All clear references to the necessity and saving power of Baptism.
 
Keeping it simple, if you die in the state of grace, you go to heaven.
That’s it.
 
that means in all he taught…beleiving in jesus implie a total lifestyle not mere mental accent though…
 
Jan I know you are not downplaying the need for sacramental baptism. But lest anyone think that you can be in a state of grace by willing it upon yourself or making an altar call is at best dangerous speculation but more likely a profound error.

The normal way to achive this grace filled state is through water baptism. Every Christian has been baptised in one of the three forms before entering the church from infant to the deathbed converts, to martyrs being fed to the lions.

It is a mystery that God might permit those not baptised into heaven but we have no knowledge on how this might occur.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top