How do i justify this as a catholic?

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ChristIsLord

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*"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. **You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or *worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

it says pretty clearly don’t make them, don’t bow down to them, and don’t worship them. it seems like a clear commandment, yet in the catholic church i see people, bowing down to them, lighting candles before them, rubbing them, praying before them. i just don’t know how to justify it. how does god go from forbiding making graven images for thousands of years to allowing rampant graven images adorning his church and having people bowing before them?

i’ve read the catholic answers apologetic on this and it doesn’t seem convincing to me. god only authorized the cherubim to be placed on the mercy seat which wasn’t in the public eye, and the serpent staff was later destroyed because some were falling into idolatory.

i don’t understand how graven images are no good, to then perfectly fine. if god’s commandments are unchanging and god is unchanging the graven images don’t make sense to someone like me.
 
your not worshiping / venerating the object, but what the object represents.
 
maize said:
your not worshiping / venerating the object, but what the object represents.
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it’s a three part commandment from how i read it.
  1. don’t make them
  2. don’t bow before them
  3. don’t worship them
even if people aren’t worshipping them, they are making them and bowing before them, both no-no’s if you look at the wording. it isn’t like you have to fit all three for it to be wrong.
 
ChristIsLord said:
*“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. **You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or ***worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

it says pretty clearly don’t make them, don’t bow down to them, and don’t worship them. it seems like a clear commandment, yet in the catholic church i see people, bowing down to them, lighting candles before them, rubbing them, praying before them. i just don’t know how to justify it. how does god go from forbiding making graven images for thousands of years to allowing rampant graven images adorning his church and having people bowing before them?

i’ve read the catholic answers apologetic on this and it doesn’t seem convincing to me. god only authorized the cherubim to be placed on the mercy seat which wasn’t in the public eye, and the serpent staff was later destroyed because some were falling into idolatory.

i don’t understand how graven images are no good, to then perfectly fine. if god’s commandments are unchanging and god is unchanging the graven images don’t make sense to someone like me.
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The Seventh Ecumenical Council addressed this issue thoroughly in the 8th century. You might want to read up on that.

The point about making statues is that you do not bow down or worship them as gods. A god by definition is a self-sufficient being. I seriously doubt you will find a single Catholic who will attribute that kind of quality to any image to whom they bow. And if you find a Catholic believing such a horrendous thing, you can be sure that Catholic authorities will stand side by side with Protestants to get rid of such a godless belief. In cultures evangelized by the Catholic Church where polytheism was prevalent, the Catholic Church has always been very careful and adamant to teach the faithful rightly on the matter.

When Catholics bow down in front of images, they don’t do so to worship the image. They do so in reverence for the divine presence they feel - not the divine presence OF the image, but the divine presence to which your mind is lifted up when you contemplate on that image.

I was at a Protestant service once and the pastor asked members of the congregation to come up to the foot of the stage to kneel and worship. Several did. If anyone were to walk in at THAT time, you would think they were bowing down and worshipping the pastor. What’s going on in the minds of those people is what matters. And no one has a right to judge that.

To be certain, I challenge you to walk up to any Catholic you see kneeling/bowing/praying in front of an image and ask them right out - “Do you think that image is a god?” I am 100% certain you will get a negative answer, and I gather many might even get insulted.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
ChristIsLord said:
it’s a three part commandment from how i read it.
  1. don’t make them
  2. don’t bow before them
  3. don’t worship them
even if people aren’t worshipping them, they are making them and bowing before them, both no-no’s if you look at the wording. it isn’t like you have to fit all three for it to be wrong.
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In the first place, that’s a really fishy translation, clearly translated with an eye to making the text reflect a particular Protestant view. Having said that…

They’re not idols. Plain and simple. So there is no issue.
 
I don’t think anything is wrong with it. What I do see is abuses caused by poor catechesis and straight up religious syncretism (i.e. rubbing the statue (like the Buddha) or burying a statue upside down to sell a house).
I can give you the same old song and dance about why the statues are ok in Church, but you have probably read apologetist who put me to shame. When I see a statue in Church and kneel near it or before it, I am usually reflecting on the life of that saint or focusing my energy in adoration of God as that saint would have. Unfortunately, too many people don’t know better because of all the new age stuff out there and NGC specials about West African idols causing fertility and stuff. Which I can probably guess was God’s original point in proscribing against it. All I can say is that you want to have a picture of your wife or kids, well I would like to have a statue of my favorite saint to remind that I too can holy, because you know I hear too many times that it is impossible to be holy in God’s eye and so on, so to be just ordinary. And also when I see a statue of the cruxification, I can see the reality of Jesus’ sacrifice for me, the nails in his hands and feet, the crown of thorns, the pierced side. It is like a three dimensional representation of the gospels to me. that is my little spiel
 
ChristIsLord said:
*“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. **You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or ***worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

it says pretty clearly don’t make them, don’t bow down to them, and don’t worship them. it seems like a clear commandment, yet in the catholic church i see people, bowing down to them, lighting candles before them, rubbing them, praying before them. i just don’t know how to justify it. how does god go from forbiding making graven images for thousands of years to allowing rampant graven images adorning his church and having people bowing before them?

i’ve read the catholic answers apologetic on this and it doesn’t seem convincing to me. god only authorized the cherubim to be placed on the mercy seat which wasn’t in the public eye, and the serpent staff was later destroyed because some were falling into idolatory.

i don’t understand how graven images are no good, to then perfectly fine. if god’s commandments are unchanging and god is unchanging the graven images don’t make sense to someone like me.
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The Law was devised to do several things: among them 1) to keep the Israelites from copying their neighbors, and 2) to make them aware that their god was very different from the baals of the peoples in a very radical way. He was present but in a hidden way. The ark was a sign of his presence and of the covenant between him and his people. The design of the ark included the figures of two angels in a posuture of worship, and this by the command of God, No one bowing to the ark was worshiping the angels but the object of their worship. A statue in a Church even a statue of Jesus. is not itself an object of worship but a pointer to a greater reality. As to the commandment itself, understand that the prohibition of idols is not separate from the prime commandment but complementary to it. I am the Lord. Do not make idols lest you think that I can be reduced to an object of your devising, like the idols of the unbelievers. I am unimaginable.
 
ChristIsLord said:
*“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. **You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or ***worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

it says pretty clearly don’t make them, don’t bow down to them, and don’t worship them. it seems like a clear commandment, yet in the catholic church i see people, bowing down to them, lighting candles before them, rubbing them, praying before them. i just don’t know how to justify it. how does god go from forbiding making graven images for thousands of years to allowing rampant graven images adorning his church and having people bowing before them?

i’ve read the catholic answers apologetic on this and it doesn’t seem convincing to me. god only authorized the cherubim to be placed on the mercy seat which wasn’t in the public eye, and the serpent staff was later destroyed because some were falling into idolatory.

i don’t understand how graven images are no good, to then perfectly fine. if god’s commandments are unchanging and god is unchanging the graven images don’t make sense to someone like me.
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Of course the Ark was in the public eye - it was carried around hither and yon while the Israelites were travelling. Remember Uzzah dying for touching it as it was being transported from one place to another? Remember David dancing in front of it for all to see?

It was the Holy of Holies of the Temple - which by the way was EMPTY, as the Roman general who entered Jerusalem in 70AD found - that was ‘away from the public eye’, so the Ark was obviously kept elsewhere.

And there’s more - remember the curtains of the meeting tent, the doors of Solomon’s Temple and even the robes of the priests had upon them images in the forms of ‘things in heaven and things on earth’ - pomegranates, fruit, ears of wheat, cherubim etc etc.

People certainly regularly bowed to anyone they respected or feared - Jacob is recorded as bowing SEVEN times to Esau as he approached, Queen Esther bowing to her husband the King (whom she certainly didn’t worship as a God by so doing!) etc.

People who went to the Temple MUST have bowed towards its doors - at least some of 'em - in respect. And to the priests - again in respect. At such times they certainly would’ve bowed in the direction of the images on its doors or the priestly robes.

You can see Jews* today* bowing in prayer at the Wailing Wall (the remains of the Temple) - their ancestors surely did no different.
 
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Do we exempt photographs and include representational art of all kinds from this ban against likenesses? We even honour the memory of great people or of respected personalities, through paintings and statues or photos set up for all to see and honour. etc? Many actors, sports people etc are even called idols in the media…are you saying that the commandment includes all these? Their pictures are signed and autographed and revered…

The crucial word, other than ‘likeness’, is “idol” that is, “an object of worship or a false god.” If there are statues or pictures of saints, they are reminders, focuses, not object of worship or false gods. Candles aren’t lit in honour of statues, but in prayer, asking the person to join us in prayer for God’s blessing and help.

“False gods” are all around us, I agree, in any excess of attachment and devotion…to physical beauty, to sport, to money, status, possessions, to being “in-love” without consideration for anyone else or any morality at times. In these false gods and others, there is sacrilege that is so often overlooked, yet far more dangerous to souls and neglectful of God than a picture or little statue that reminds one to pray.

My mother-in-law died this week. My husband put up a loved photo of her above the dining-table after we came back from her funeral service…is this simple honour an offense to God.

Don’t be fooled about the true spirit of that Commandment, You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. The true spirit of this commandment is that we must no allow anything of earth, andthing of creation, stand before us and the love and worship of God above all. And what idols do stand as false gods before God are selfishness, materialism, and a whle range of other things which consume us and prevent us from giving our lives to God
 
If you TRULY, TRULY, believe that people who bow, kneel and pray before statutes or images are ACTUALLY praying or whorshipping the ACTUAL ‘thing’ before them…you’re an idiot!

If you’re Catholic, you’re a Catholic idiot!

If you want Scriptural ‘proof’ for your position, THEN READ SCRIPTURES!!

Then blame God for directing Moses to make a bronze snake and erect it high so the people can see it…**
…and also construct the “images” of Angels on the ‘Ark’ that hold the Tablets of the covenant.**

EVERYTHING “WE” Catholics do is FROM HIM!

:cool:
 
I do not believe that the picture of Jesus on my fridge will answer my prayers.

Nor do I believe that the crucifix above my bed is actually God Himself or another god. No I know that there is only one God.

Much like the pictures of my family on my wall, they are reminders of my family both in heaven and on earth. They help me to keep my focus during my praying. Much like having the Bible in my hands while I pray.

I know that the Bible is not a god either. Some could argue that many Bible Alone Christians worship the Bible as if it were God Himself. As if the book could answer prayers.

I wouldn’t sit back and assume to know what other people were thinking or feeling when they kneel before any statue. For some it is the “idea” of the physical presence that helps them to connect with those who have gone before us.
I don’t know one Catholic who thinks the a statue is a god.
They know it’s just a statue.:rolleyes: It’s when you think that the statue is a god and can answer your prayers that you’ve crossed the line.
 
An idol is a false God period. No Catholic on the planet worships a false God and still remains Catholic. Not a single Catholic worships a statue or a painting or any man made object as a substitute for God.

The question here is how do fundamentalists who want to make these ridiculous charges of idol worship and idol creation justify themselves as being “intelligent humans” when they make such absurd comments. False worship of ignorance is idolatry.

Religious statues, paintings and artifacts found in Catholic Churches, chapels, gardens and homes are simply inspirational art forms to demarc places set aside as “special” and reserved for meditation and prayer to the One True God. If it improves a fundamentalists’ overly judgemental mind they can think of these artifacts as polite signs that communicate “Please do not talk - this is an area reserved for quiet meditate and prayer to God”. There is also an inspirational dimension as well as a teaching dimension to some of these art forms - particularly stained glass windows which a lot of Protestants still have in their churches (and were used to tell gospel stories through art since these were all illiterate and could not even read in large number until the latter century).

If someone is bothered by the candles around the statues are they also bothered by the bright electric lights at home around their bathroom mirrors? Or do they exempt themselves from idol worship when they stare at their own image each morning while coddling and brusing their hair and teeth under the bright lights? How about the Christmas ornaments and lights on their Christmas trees at home? I suppose if we all stood in darkened churches without candles or lighting we would be accused of worshiping the darkness??? Come on - let’s not be ridiculous.

Indeed, it is profoundly ironic that ever since fundamentalists learned how to read their bibles that they have been trying to teach the teachers what their bibles say. More shameful is that the same now seem to worship their bibles as an idol and routinely offer up false worship to it with ignorant lip service and make it speak new oracles and things that would make it blush and complain if it could. 😊

I just wonder how long it will be fore these same people start complaining about putting graven images of their secular leaders on their coins along with the motto “In God We Trust” underneath and start a new round of protestation against this idolatry. Fundamentalist should be consistent and refuse to pay their tithes to the same idiotioc men they have made into idols for teaching them this sort of nonsense.

God help us…

James
 
I. Images and Statues

Deut. 4:15 - from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 - of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 - God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

**Num. 21:8-9 **- God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

**2 Kings 18:4 **- it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

**Col. 1:15 **- the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.

Scripture Catholic
scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html
 
for anyone who has been to mexico or south america we can see that idol worship has grabbed hold of that church almost through and through. many mexicans believe in the cult of santa meurta, many mexicans will outright claim mary is their god. and the statues have taken on full fledged idol worship. THIS is why god commanded them not to be even made in the first place and certainly not to bow down to them.

and to the person saying the graven images aren’t “venerated” they certainly are according to the catechism and the code of canon law:

"2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” 70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone: "

as for stating my translation is “fishy” well that is untrue too, there is nothing fishy about it. graven images means carved images, that’s the meaning of the word so a photo of your family would not fall into that. anyway i don’t set up photos of my family and burn incense or candles and bow befeore them.

in deuteronomy it is a three part commandement, don’t make them, don’t bow down to them, don’t worship them. catholics make them and place them throughout their churches, bow down to them to pray, and venerate the graven image which to me is awfully close to breaking the commandment if not full blown.

what does it add to bow before statues and light candles and pray? i mean we clealy see the problems it causes with some problems especially in africa, india, and mexico and south america.

the commandment doesn’t say don’t make graven images and worship them as gods. it says don’t make them, or bow down to them, or worship them. or is the key word there.
 
ChristIsLord said:
it’s a three part commandment from how i read it.
  1. don’t make them
  2. don’t bow before them
  3. don’t worship them
even if people aren’t worshipping them, they are making them and bowing before them, both no-no’s if you look at the wording. it isn’t like you have to fit all three for it to be wrong.
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It says not to make idols– representations of gods.

It does not say that we cannot make icons– representations of other things.

The heresy of Iconoclasm has long been put down.
 
ChristIsLord said:
as for stating my translation is “fishy” well that is untrue too, there is nothing fishy about it. graven images means carved images, that’s the meaning of the word so a photo of your family would not fall into that.
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Yes it is fishy.

KJV: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

NASB: You shall not make for yourself [a]an idol,** or any likeness of what** is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

ESV: You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

RSV: You shall not make for yourself a graven image,** or any likeness of anything** that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

New Jerusalem Bible: You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth.

The NIV(?) translation you offer avoids this awkward prohibition against any likeness, by changing the text.
 
you didn’t even quote the right verse in its entirety come on now.

“You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them”

that’s the NAB, shall not make them, or bow down to them, or worship them. there’s no play on words here.
 
In the very same chapter where that commandment is given, God commands statues of cherubim to be made and placed on the ark of the covenant, which was highly venerated. God also commanded a bronze serpent to be made and to look upon it to be saved from the snakes (unfortunately, much later, the people actually did begin to worship that bronze serpent as a god and so it was rightly destroyed).
 
ChristIsLord said:
you didn’t even quote the right verse in its entirety come on now.
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I quoted the part I found questionable.

Anyway, as has been pointed out to you over and over, the subject of these verses is idols, other gods. Nobody considers statues of the saints to be idols, or the saints to be other gods. Or rather, the Church plainly does not teach this. If there are excesses and errors in certain parts of the world, it is up to the bishops in those areas to address the errors and excesses by affirming correct Church teaching. So if you have knowledge of such errors and excesses, you should be writing to the bishops who would be responsible for correcting them. You can find that info here: catholic-hierarchy.org/

Let us know how the letter-writing campaign goes.
 
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