How Do I Know I am One of The Elect?

[mikeledes]

I strongly suggest that before engaging in any discussion with a Calvinist, a Catholic must learn the Catholic view of predestination. We may not be identical to Calvinists, but we are not Arminians either.

Here are some articles:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

romancatholicism.org/akin-tulip.htm

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

All Catholic theologians (Thomist and Molinist) adhere to the follwoing principles:

We shall return to this point. But in any case, from this minimum admitted by all we get three propositions to which all Catholic theologians subscribe. They are: (1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians. But Thomists and Augustinians on the one hand, and Molinists and congruists on the other, differ in their interpretation of them.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

There is no problem with Catholic Teaching, but with your perception thereof. Nowhere in Catholic Dogma or teaching can you find that one can work his/her way into heaven, nowhere!!! You have been taught that by other folks, but just because they told you that doesn’t make it true.

This issue is one of the most hashed ones on CAF, and you clearly should know Catholic Church Teaching by now. The term “Faith Alone” only appears in the Bible one time, and that is in James Chapter Two. (Especially see verse 20.) Neither faith alone or works alone will get anyone to heaven!

Peace & Joy

Keeping the commandments is not a means of salvation. No one can use the law as a means of their justification. We have all broken it.

 

[Linkowski]

If you love me, keep my commandments.

That’s beside the point. If you are going to use the commandments as a means of salvation - you are debtor to do the whole law. Make sure you stop at the Kosher market on the way home today from work.

 

[Linkowski]

Can you fall if you are elect? …uch:

Not utterly - you can stumble. The elect WILL be saved and you cannot refute this.

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

I hate to slow down the topic, I really do. But could someone talk to me like a 5 year old? This is what I have so far. We are not saved by works, but by God’s grace alone. But God chooses whom to allow this grace to. So if God does not offer us this saving grace, no matter how much we pray for it, we cannot be saved. Am I correct?

 

[Linkowski]

Hello OneForTruth,

I think you are correct. Catholic teaching is that we cannot know for certain - the one exception being a personal revelation by God.

Like you, I can’t recall where I read it. Will see if I can locate it.

Nita

How is one saved???

Mt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Salvation is by revelation and so is assurance.

1John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Heb 10:39 But **we are not of them **who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[Linkowski]

This seems to be totally unfair. A man can give his life totally to the Lord, sacrificing all he has or could have to work in the service of the Lord, but Our all Merciful God can not reward this poor wretched creature for his efforts? He dies, gets to the Gates of the Kingdom, and then is told, “Oh, sorry you wasted your life, but you aren’t one of the Chosen.” I refuse to believe that. Please tell me I have misunderstood part of the argument. Tell me Our Holy Church does not teach such a foolish opinion.

Ro 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, **who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? ** 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Linkowski]

Well, no. God doesn’t choose who will be condemned and who will be saved simply by picking few people and allowing them to be saved and damning the rest. I think that’s pretty much what Calving taught. We have the chance to turn to God and accept his Grace, without which we are hopeless, but we can simply refuse it. Therefore I would assume that the person who “has given his life to the Lord, sacrificing all he has or could have to work in the service of the Lord” hasn’t done it simply on his own but by accepting his Grace allowing our Lord to work through his life. In fact, even true Faith is a gift from God.

This is how I understand it. Please correct me if that’s not exactly what the Church teaches since I’m still trying to fully understand it .

Calvin taught it because the Bible taught it in Romans 9 and scattered around in the rest of scripture.

 

[mikeledes]

How is one saved???

Mt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Salvation is by revelation and so is assurance.

1John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Heb 10:39 But **we are not of them **who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We can have moral certitude that we have been justified and in a state of grace and thus chosen by God to be in Christ. We have no infallible knowledge that we are among those who will remain in Christ until the end.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Mike_Brick]

Keeping the commandments is not a means of salvation. No one can use the law as a means of their justification. We have all broken it.

I don’t know how many times we must explain this. Yes we know, just keeping the commandments with out a personal faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, will not get anyone into heaven. I said that in my original post to this thread, as have others herein. And the same goes for someone who says they have a personal faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, but does little or nothing to evidence that so called faith will not get anyone into heaven either. What will it take to make you understand that?

God Bless
Mike

 

[Mike_Brick]

Calvin taught it because the Bible taught it in Romans 9 and scattered around in the rest of scripture.

No Link, Calvin taught it because it was his personal interpretation of some of Paul’s writings, which didn’t appear for some 1600 years into Christianity. Jesus taught that all are called!

Peace my Brother in Christ

 

[Linkowski]

I don’t know how many times we must explain this. Yes we know, just keeping the commandments with out a personal faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, will not get anyone into heaven. I said that in my original post to this thread, as have others herein. And the same goes for someone who says they have a personal faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, but does little or nothing to evidence that so called faith will not get anyone into heaven either. What will it take to make you understand that?

God Bless
Mike

You sound like me! BUT…so many people pass up faith and merely work.

I will tell you what - you go ahead and water/mist the tree limbs and leaves of your plants and I will water the roots of mine and let’s compare results after a while. Faith is the root…works are the fruit.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Linkowski]

No Link, Calvin taught it because it was his personal interpretation of some of Paul’s writings, which didn’t appear for some 1600 years into Christianity. Jesus taught that all are called!

Peace my Brother in Christ

So this is for everyone!!!..

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

These are the “called according to His purpose”…

All are called in one sense - but only the elect receive the effectual inward call and are justified and finally glorified.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Don’t confuse the callings.

 

[Baraq]

No Link, Calvin taught it because it was his personal interpretation of some of Paul’s writings, which didn’t appear for some 1600 years into Christianity. Jesus taught that all are called!

Peace my Brother in Christ

You act as if Calvin was alone in this idea. French, Dutch, German Swiss…etc… read scripture and came to the same conclusions INDEPENDENTLY. The Confessions of Faith of the various Reformed Churches are not that far apart. There might be more variation in RCC Orders than in Conservative Reformed Churches.

 

[Teflon93]

You act as if Calvin was alone in this idea. French, Dutch, German Swiss…etc… read scripture and came to the same conclusions INDEPENDENTLY. The Confessions of Faith of the various Reformed Churches are not that far apart. There might be more variation in RCC Orders than in Conservative Reformed Churches.

And these various Reformed Churches somehow failed to ever read any Calvin?

Wasn’t his writing widely read?

The real question is how Luther missed the boat.

 

[Baraq]

And these various Reformed Churches somehow failed to ever read any Calvin?

Wasn’t his writing widely read?

The real question is how Luther missed the boat.

He was widely read, because so many agreed

 

[I_Leatherman]

That’s beside the point. If you are going to use the commandments as a means of salvation - you are debtor to do the whole law.

His commandments must be an intimate part of it, He said if you keep His commandments you love Him, if you love Him you abide in Him and He in you. If you do not abide in Him you wither and are cast into the furnace to burn.

Your idea on the face of it - what you’ve written above - denies any obligation to keep His commandments.

 

[Beachcomber]

Early Puritan writings reflect the anxiety between being saved or not. They spent a lot of time thinking and praying over this question of who would get into heaven. There was a dichtomy between the faith and works question that they had a hard time trying to solve.

This is just my observation; that these are mysteries and like it or not, not everyone will agree on one straightforward answer.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Not utterly - you can stumble. The elect WILL be saved and you cannot refute this.

Its a conditional if / then…or else. uch: …and you cannot know until you Know.

Are you one of the Elect, Linkowski?

 

[Black_Knight]

Not utterly - you can stumble. The elect WILL be saved and you cannot refute this.

Why can it not be refuted? Because you assert it with passion?

There’s a really big problem with this whole eternal security/Calvinist election thing. It doesn’t conform to the Bible.

Revelation 3:5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

In order to have your name blotted out it would have to be in there to begin with.