P
- Status
D
djrakowski
Guest
Craig,
You will not win any friends or influence people by taking this nasty line of defense. Remember what scripture says about the value of charity, and giving a reason for the hope you have, with gentleness and respect.
I never said the elect will perish (and I have no idea where you got that from what I wrote). But, since we both agree on this point, for whom did God issue these warnings? If his will is going to come to pass regardless of warnings, why issue them at all?
C
Church_Militant
Guest
I’m sorry but I read tirades like this (again) and I have to sit here and wonder just who it is that you are trying to convince?
I have no problem with Catholic teaching, but I think that your evident hang-up about this comes close to presumption, especially in the way in which you present it. The n-C teachings on Once Saved, Always Saved are error.
B
Baraq
Guest
Clavin has no issue with Matthew 19:17, it(like all of Scripture) testifies of the truth.
From Calvin:
""Keep the commandments. This passage was erroneously interpreted by some of the ancients, whom the Papists have followed, as if Christ taught that, by beeping the law, we may merit eternal life On the contrary, Christ did not take into consideration what men can do, but replied to the question, What is the righteousness of works? or, What does the Law require? And certainly we ought to believe that God comprehended in his law the way of living holily and righteously, in which righteousness is included; for not without reason did Moses make this statement,
He that does these things shall live in them, (Leviticus 18:5
and again,
I call heaven and earth to witness that l have
this day showed you life, (Deuteronomy 30:19.)
We have no right, therefore, to deny that the keeping of the law is righteousness, by which any man who kept the law perfectly — if there were such a man — would obtain life for himself. But as we are all destitute of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23,) nothing but cursing will be found in the law; and nothing remains for us but to betake ourselves to the undeserved gift of righteousness. And therefore Paul lays down a twofold righteousness, the righteousness of the law, (Romans 10:5,) and the righteousness of faith, (Romans 10:6.) He makes the first to consist in works, and the second, in the free grace of Christ.
Hence we infer, that this reply of Christ is legal, because it was proper that the young man who inquired about the righteousness of works should first be taught that no man is accounted righteous before God unless he has fulfilled the law, 620620 “Sinon qu’il ait accompli toute la loy de poinct en poinct;” — “unless he has fulfilled all the law in every point." (which is impossible,) that, convinced of his weakness, he might betake himself to the assistance of faith. I acknowledge, therefore, that, as God has promised the reward of eternal life to those who keep his law, we ought to hold by this way, if the weakness of our flesh did not prevent; but Scripture teaches us, that it is through our own fault that it becomes necessary for us to receive as a gift what we cannot obtain by works. If it be objected, that it is in vain to hold out to us the righteousness which is in the law, (Romans 10:5,) which no man will ever be able to reach, I reply, since it is the first part of instruction, by which we are led to the righteousness which is obtained by prayer, it is far from being superfluous; and, therefore, when Paul says, that the doers of the law are justified, (Romans 2:13,) he excludes all from the righteousness of the law.
This passage sets aside all the inventions which the Papists have contrived in order to obtain salvation. For not only are they mistaken in wishing to lay God under obligation to them by their good works, to bestow salvation as a debt; but when they apply themselves to do what is right, they leave out of view the doctrine of the law, and attend chiefly to their pretended devotions, as they call them, not that they openly reject the law of God, but that they greatly prefer human traditions. But what does Christ say? That the only worship of which God approves is that which he has prescribed; because obedience is better to him than all sacrifices, 622622 “Pource qu’il estime plus obeissance que tous les sacrifices du monde;” — “because he esteems obedience more than all the sacrifices in the world.” (1 Samuel 15:22.) So then, while the Papists are employed in frivolous traditions, let every man who endeavors to regulate his life by obedience to Christ direct his whole attention to keep the commandments of the law.
“”
M
mikeledes
Guest
Acts 27 is a wonderful example of divine providence. The warning never realized because they heeded the warning. However, we cannot compare apples with oranges. The fact that a warning was not realized in this case does not mean a warning is never realized:
Ezekiel 3:20-21
20"Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21"However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself."
The above passage demonstrates that God can act on a warning to the righteous.
God Bless,
Michael
T
Truthstalker
Guest
I want to return to the OP and look at it from a different angle.
Our salvation is in Christ, not in ourselves. Our election is also in Him, not in us. The elect are the elect gratuiously: nothing they did, nothing they are, nothing they will do causes them to to elect. It is all a matter of God’s choice as to who He decides will persevere to the end, who will see the door open into heaven and pass through it. It is not in us.
Likewise, our assurance of that salvation cannot be in us anymore than sunlight shining on a wall can be said to be a property of the wall. There is a danger of presumption, of a fleshy surety and a boasting in ourselves, if we look in ourselves and claim to have an assurance that is ours rather than His. IF we have assurance, it is lodged in Christ, not ourselves. IF we get a revelation of assurance, we can only trust it because of the Source, not because of our hearing, not because of anything in ourselves - even the capacity to hear correctly.
In that sense the OP is utterly misleading. I think he means, “How do Catholics know they will make it into heaven,” but the focus is on the believer, not on Christ, in the question. Also he is coming from a standpoint of defining the “elect” as those who will persevere to the end, which differes from what “elect” means in Catholic thought.
Calvin, by the way, acknowledged that the non-elect can have the grace of God operating in their lives, can have false security, can go for a while as Christian and fall away. He contrasts these people with the elect who, by definition, will persevere to the end.
Our salvation is in Christ, not in ourselves. Our election is also in Him, not in us. The elect are the elect gratuiously: nothing they did, nothing they are, nothing they will do causes them to to elect. It is all a matter of God’s choice as to who He decides will persevere to the end, who will see the door open into heaven and pass through it. It is not in us.
Likewise, our assurance of that salvation cannot be in us anymore than sunlight shining on a wall can be said to be a property of the wall. There is a danger of presumption, of a fleshy surety and a boasting in ourselves, if we look in ourselves and claim to have an assurance that is ours rather than His. IF we have assurance, it is lodged in Christ, not ourselves. IF we get a revelation of assurance, we can only trust it because of the Source, not because of our hearing, not because of anything in ourselves - even the capacity to hear correctly.
In that sense the OP is utterly misleading. I think he means, “How do Catholics know they will make it into heaven,” but the focus is on the believer, not on Christ, in the question. Also he is coming from a standpoint of defining the “elect” as those who will persevere to the end, which differes from what “elect” means in Catholic thought.
Calvin, by the way, acknowledged that the non-elect can have the grace of God operating in their lives, can have false security, can go for a while as Christian and fall away. He contrasts these people with the elect who, by definition, will persevere to the end.
M
mikeledes
Guest
It cannot be proven from Scripture? I have presented numerous verses that contradict the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. I have written a whole series of posts in another thread and they have gone unanswered. I hope you and any other Calvinist will take the time to prayerfully read them.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
M
mikeledes
Guest
In case this was overlooked, here it is again. Now are there genuinely righteous people who do not persevere?
We find a clear example in the Book of Ezekiel. In the Book of Ezekiel, the phrase “He shall surely live” is used to express Divine approval. It is either used as an divine affirmation/confirmation of someone being rigteous before God (i.e.justified).
Ezekiel 18:5-9
5**“But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, (does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord GOD. **
Or it is used as a declaration of forgiveness:
Ezekiel 18:21
**21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. **
God will never give His approval to a person who has not repented of his wickedness or is not genuinely righteous before His sight. If He says to someone “You shall surely live”, he is giving His seal of approval and saying that that person is righteous in His sight. He will never give His approval to the wicked if they have not repented:
Exodus 34:6-7
6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty,
Exodus 23:7
7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.
And if a person is righteous, it is because God has justified him, He made him righteous. there is no other way a person can be righteous in His sight. Therefore, when we have a verse like;
Ezekiel 33:13
**13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered;but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. **
God has given these people his seal of approval (he shall surely live) and thus they cannot be anything but genuinely righteous for God will not clear or approve the wicked. Remember, God only uses “He shall surely live” when he is affirming somone is genuinely righteous or forgiving a repentant sinner. Therefore, the subject in Ezekiel 33:13 is a genuinely righteous person before God’s sight. This person took for granted this divine approval and figured that his righteous acts would be enough to cover his future sins. Wrong! This verse is also remarkably similar to:
1 Corinthians 10:12
**12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. **
And also Romans 11:20-22
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
We know what will happen to those who become conceited:
1 Timothy 3:6
**6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. **
The righteous of the Old and New Testaments became righteous the same way. There is no difference, as demonstrated by Hebrews 11. The fact that this person dies in his sin (i.e. but in that iniquity of his which he has commited he will die), means that he did not persevere to the end. And yet he was genuinely justified? The fact that he has divine approval and was called righteous by God shows that he was justified. Thus demonstrating that not all of the justified will persevere and not all of the justified are counted among those predestined to glory.
I have discussed this in greater detail - with New Testament examples - in the following thread, but it has largely been ignored:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163236&page=11
God Bless,
Michael
We find a clear example in the Book of Ezekiel. In the Book of Ezekiel, the phrase “He shall surely live” is used to express Divine approval. It is either used as an divine affirmation/confirmation of someone being rigteous before God (i.e.justified).
Ezekiel 18:5-9
5**“But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, (does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord GOD. **
Or it is used as a declaration of forgiveness:
Ezekiel 18:21
**21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. **
God will never give His approval to a person who has not repented of his wickedness or is not genuinely righteous before His sight. If He says to someone “You shall surely live”, he is giving His seal of approval and saying that that person is righteous in His sight. He will never give His approval to the wicked if they have not repented:
Exodus 34:6-7
6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty,
Exodus 23:7
7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.
And if a person is righteous, it is because God has justified him, He made him righteous. there is no other way a person can be righteous in His sight. Therefore, when we have a verse like;
Ezekiel 33:13
**13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered;but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. **
God has given these people his seal of approval (he shall surely live) and thus they cannot be anything but genuinely righteous for God will not clear or approve the wicked. Remember, God only uses “He shall surely live” when he is affirming somone is genuinely righteous or forgiving a repentant sinner. Therefore, the subject in Ezekiel 33:13 is a genuinely righteous person before God’s sight. This person took for granted this divine approval and figured that his righteous acts would be enough to cover his future sins. Wrong! This verse is also remarkably similar to:
1 Corinthians 10:12
**12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. **
And also Romans 11:20-22
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
We know what will happen to those who become conceited:
1 Timothy 3:6
**6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. **
The righteous of the Old and New Testaments became righteous the same way. There is no difference, as demonstrated by Hebrews 11. The fact that this person dies in his sin (i.e. but in that iniquity of his which he has commited he will die), means that he did not persevere to the end. And yet he was genuinely justified? The fact that he has divine approval and was called righteous by God shows that he was justified. Thus demonstrating that not all of the justified will persevere and not all of the justified are counted among those predestined to glory.
I have discussed this in greater detail - with New Testament examples - in the following thread, but it has largely been ignored:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163236&page=11
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Just in case this post was overlooked, I’ll repost it here:
Let’s take a look at several verses from Galatians:
Galatians 1:6
**6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; **
Galatians 3:3
**3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? **
Galatians 4:8
**8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? **
Galatians 5:1-4
**1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **
The Galatians had wandered from the truth by deserting the One who called them. Let me add a related verse:
James 5:19-20
**19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. **
Straying from the truth endangers a persons soul. Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is a serious matter that has eternal consequences. Now the “separated from the love of God” verse has been used a lot by our Protestant brothers in this thread. However, Galatians 5:4 states that the Galatians in question were “severed from Christ” and have “fallen from grace.” This is similar to another verse:
Romans 11:20-22
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
To continue in God’s kindness is to continue in His grace. If we have fallen from grace, we have been cut off, severed from Christ. If one has fallen from grace, there can be no salvation for one cannot be saved without grace. That is why John 15:6 states:
**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
Notice the order of events. The branch is thrown away (i.e. cut off), “dries up” (i.e. dies) and is cast into the fire. The branch dries up because it has been caught off from its source of life (i.e. the Vine). A person cut off/ severed from Christ the Vine is also cut off from the source of life and his/her end is the eternal fire. That is why John urges the Christian community to abide in Christ:
1 John 2:28
**28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. **
They shrink away in shame because they know they will experience everlasting shame.
Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is very serious and has grave eternal consequences. According to the OSAS doctrine as understood by Protestants, such a situation is impossible. A true Christian can never really fall from grace, be severed from
Christ, or desert him. Such a person was never saved to begin with. Looking at the general profile of the Galatians based on the first couple of verses I gave, they were genuinely saved. If genuine Christians can desert Christ, be severed from Him, and fall from grace, why can’t all those verses that talk about the fallen away (i.e. Hebrews 6) be about genuinely saved Christians? Is it because faithfulness to a specific theology trumps Scripture?
God Bless,
Michael
Let’s take a look at several verses from Galatians:
Galatians 1:6
**6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; **
Galatians 3:3
**3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? **
Galatians 4:8
**8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? **
Galatians 5:1-4
**1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **
The Galatians had wandered from the truth by deserting the One who called them. Let me add a related verse:
James 5:19-20
**19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. **
Straying from the truth endangers a persons soul. Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is a serious matter that has eternal consequences. Now the “separated from the love of God” verse has been used a lot by our Protestant brothers in this thread. However, Galatians 5:4 states that the Galatians in question were “severed from Christ” and have “fallen from grace.” This is similar to another verse:
Romans 11:20-22
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
To continue in God’s kindness is to continue in His grace. If we have fallen from grace, we have been cut off, severed from Christ. If one has fallen from grace, there can be no salvation for one cannot be saved without grace. That is why John 15:6 states:
**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
Notice the order of events. The branch is thrown away (i.e. cut off), “dries up” (i.e. dies) and is cast into the fire. The branch dries up because it has been caught off from its source of life (i.e. the Vine). A person cut off/ severed from Christ the Vine is also cut off from the source of life and his/her end is the eternal fire. That is why John urges the Christian community to abide in Christ:
1 John 2:28
**28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. **
They shrink away in shame because they know they will experience everlasting shame.
Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is very serious and has grave eternal consequences. According to the OSAS doctrine as understood by Protestants, such a situation is impossible. A true Christian can never really fall from grace, be severed from
Christ, or desert him. Such a person was never saved to begin with. Looking at the general profile of the Galatians based on the first couple of verses I gave, they were genuinely saved. If genuine Christians can desert Christ, be severed from Him, and fall from grace, why can’t all those verses that talk about the fallen away (i.e. Hebrews 6) be about genuinely saved Christians? Is it because faithfulness to a specific theology trumps Scripture?
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Compare Ezekiel 18:24:
**24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. **
With 2 Peter 2:20-21
** 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.** **21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. **
Only through salvific knowledge, that knowledge possessed by a person who is saved, can a person escape the defilements of the world:
2 Peter 1:4
4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
Only a partaker of the divine nature has escaped the defilements of the world and only the saved can be partakers. Moreover, the word “again” means that the person is now reverting to a state that preexisted their “escape.” This sounds like:
Galatians 4:8
**8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? **
And:
Galatians 5:1
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
The testimomy of God’s Holy Word is overwhelming. God be praised forever and ever!
God Bless,
Michael
**24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. **
With 2 Peter 2:20-21
** 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.** **21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. **
Only through salvific knowledge, that knowledge possessed by a person who is saved, can a person escape the defilements of the world:
2 Peter 1:4
4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
Only a partaker of the divine nature has escaped the defilements of the world and only the saved can be partakers. Moreover, the word “again” means that the person is now reverting to a state that preexisted their “escape.” This sounds like:
Galatians 4:8
**8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? **
And:
Galatians 5:1
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
The testimomy of God’s Holy Word is overwhelming. God be praised forever and ever!
God Bless,
Michael
C
ChristianVet
Guest
Ah…an old heresy, resurrected and propped up.
If what you say were true, we all might as well take a long sleeping pill and wait to be notified of whether or not we are part of the elect!
How ridiculous! Of course, we each have an individual choice of whether or not we choose Christ, whether or not we will perservere, and ultimately whether or not we make it into heaven.
If it weren’t so, we would not be part of God’s plan, just his puppets – as it is we have Free Will, along with that comes maturity and Responsibility.
Now that’s curious. Responsibility – something escapism theology tries to avoid if at all possible.
Let us Take Up our Crosses and Follow Christ.
No one said it would be easy.
B
Baraq
Guest
Mike,
Those scriptures you mentioned refer to Covenant people of God. Covenant people are not always Elect, like those who fell in the wilderness or the unfertile ground mentioned in the parable of the sower.
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Those scriptures you mentioned refer to Covenant people of God. Covenant people are not always Elect, like those who fell in the wilderness or the unfertile ground mentioned in the parable of the sower.
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Can you provide some sources for this. I would be very interested in reading more about this. I’ve heard about it before.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
You’re right! Not all of the Covenant People were of the Elect. However, the passages I quoted are not about the Covenant people per se. They are about the righteous and the wicked within the Covenant people. The righteous of the Old and the New Covenants became righteous the same way. Just read Hebrews 11. Hence, if perseverance of the saints applies to the New Testament saints, then it should also apply to the Old Testament saints.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
No one can pluck/snatch anyone out of God’s hands. To “snatch” usually means to catch by surprise and to use force. God is absolutely sovereign. He is the one who determines who will remain and who will not remain in Christ:
John 15:1-6
**1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
Compare with Romans 11:20-22
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
Only those who are predestined to glory will remain/abide in Christ. Those who were ordained by God to be justified but fail to persevere were chosen to be in Christ but not to remain in Christ until the end.
God Bless,
Michael
L
Linkowski
Guest
That is hardly true, my friend. Did Jesus ever shout? When did he??Linkowski, we hear you! Don’t worry, we aren’t deaf. You don’t need to shout!It’s not that we don’t hear but that we don’t agree.
In Christ,
~G
T
Teflon93
Guest
When he fashioned a scourge and chased the moneylenders out of the Temple.
A
Ahimsa
Guest
Because you choose to be.
L
Linkowski
Guest
Talk to Him about this type of approach. I am not applying this text to you but only using it as an example. Hard heads require sharper instruments used with higher power.
Mt 23:13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. {anise: Gr. dill}
Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Luke 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
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