How Do I Know I am One of The Elect?

[djrakowski]

I see you’ve since made an edit, so I’ll offer another comment:

God is keeping me through the power of the Spirit and by these words of His. But…if I am one of the elect, then I will be saved forever…TRUE OR NOT TRUE, DAN?? This does not keep me from working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

Craig, that statement is practically Catholic, my brother! That’s EXACTLY what I believe as a Catholic, and doing so, I am violating no teaching of the Catholic Church.

However, you’re saying that you’re certain of your call at this moment in time without offering a shred of evidence that this will continue, and then offer - what? - your “working out your salvation” as evidence? Interesting - does that mean your works play a role in your salvation?

Dan

 

[Linkowski]

Craig,

You’re speaking of your present condition in relation to Christ. What of your future condition?

Catholics also regularly examine themselves, most importantly in sacramental confession (which I did on Sunday, and received some rather wise counsel in how to overcome a persistent weakness).

I know of very few serious Christians, Catholic or otherwise, that aren’t aware of having undergone some divine chastisement at one point or another.

But none of this addresses my question. You are certain of your status with God at this point in time - good! How do you know you will continue in that state until death?

Dan

If my present condition is being a child of His, then I will be saved forever. Non-elect persons are never children of God and will not receive divine chastisement.

Because God is keeping me. My hope is in the Lord - who gave His life for me…and paid the price of all my sin at Calvary. For me He died, for me He lives!

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath **perfected for ever **them that are (being) sanctified.

If I am being sanctified by the Spirit…I have been perfected forever! Just in the sight of God on the basis of Christ’s life, death and resurrection.

 

[Linkowski]

I see you’ve since made an edit, so I’ll offer another comment:
Craig, that statement is practically Catholic, my brother! That’s EXACTLY what I believe as a Catholic, and doing so, I am violating no teaching of the Catholic Church.

However, you’re saying that you’re certain of your call at this moment in time without offering a shred of evidence that this will continue, and then offer - what? - your “working out your salvation” as evidence? Interesting - does that mean your works play a role in your salvation?

Dan

The CC says that you can lose salvation - this is never the case and they do not believe in Justification by faith alone. You do not view this doctrine properly either. Your issue is that you believe that non-elect persons can be justified.

 

[djrakowski]

If my present condition is being a child of His, then I will be saved forever. Non-elect persons are never children of God and will not receive divine chastisement.

Because God is keeping me. My hope is in the Lord - who gave His life for me…and paid the price of all my sin at Calvary. For me He died, for me He lives!

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath **perfected for ever **them that are (being) sanctified.

If I am being sanctified by the Spirit…I have been perfected forever! Just in the sight of God on the basis of Christ’s life, death and resurrection.

Craig, once again, there are many people who believe just as you do at any given moment in time, and even bearing fruits of righteousness, and then later fall away. How can you be sure that you’re not of that number? The question is quite simple.

My present condition is that I’m a child of his. Would you dispute that?

Dan

 

[djrakowski]

The CC says that you can lose salvation - this is never the case and they do not believe in Justification by faith alone. You do not view this doctrine properly either.

My friend mikeledes did a more than adequate job of explaining the people to whom this refers when he explained the situation of those who are among the justified non-elect.

What about it do I view improperly, remembering that yours is just one opinion among many non-Catholic opinions floating around?

 

[djrakowski]

An off-the-cuff observation, in case anyone is interested:

mikeledes and others have shown that the Catholic Church teaches assurance of salvation for the elect. The difference between Calvinism and Catholicism in this regard is determining who constitutes the elect.

Secondly, there’s little practical difference in the way serious Christians of any persuasion live their lives. Serious Calvinists (like Linkowski and many others on these forums) live exemplary lives bearing fruit that gives evidence of God’s action in their lives, and serious Catholics do the same. Both groups do so out of love for God, out of a desire to bear a positive witness and influence for Him in the world such that His name alone will be praised, and not out of a desire to curry favor with Him by our actions (which is impossible).

So, why the argument? Either way, the elect will be saved regardless of what anyone does about it (including efforts to earn it by good works). If I sinfully fail to proclaim the full gospel, then God will use someone else to reach His elect.

 

[clmowry]

How Do I Know I am One of The Elect?

You die and find yourself with God in heaven.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

Again - nobody has answered my question - does the CC teach that one can know that they are of the elect and what is the condition? Search it out.

No.

 

[Teflon93]

An off-the-cuff observation, in case anyone is interested:

mikeledes and others have shown that the Catholic Church teaches assurance of salvation for the elect. The difference between Calvinism and Catholicism in this regard is determining who constitutes the elect.

Secondly, there’s little practical difference in the way serious Christians of any persuasion live their lives. Serious Calvinists (like Linkowski and many others on these forums) live exemplary lives bearing fruit that gives evidence of God’s action in their lives, and serious Catholics do the same. Both groups do so out of love for God, out of a desire to bear a positive witness and influence for Him in the world such that His name alone will be praised, and not out of a desire to curry favor with Him by our actions (which is impossible).

So, why the argument? Either way, the elect will be saved regardless of what anyone does about it (including efforts to earn it by good works). If I sinfully fail to proclaim the full gospel, then God will use someone else to reach His elect.

It is an excellent point you raise.

We may argue over theology, but clearly Calvinator, Linkowski, and our other Calvinist friends are Christians living the Christian life. We must not forget this.

Now, if they would only wake up and realize how much better Christian living is with ALL the sacraments, we could really celebrate!

 

[clmowry]

WOW - I am not sure where you are getting that accusation from. Regardless, I believe that I have seen it said somewhere in CC documents that one can know by revelation from God (or that is the only way that they might know). Is this the case?

Yes. By the special revalation of God one can know they are among the elect.

i.e. He tells you so Himself.

That is the only way you can “know”.

Chuck

 

[Teflon93]

How long can one fall away for??? Do you not think that a fall can last a longer period of time…repentance then can come months/years later. People that I have seen that completely fall away - they say things that are unbelievable to my ears. What I come to find out is that they were really wondering “What’s in it for me”. This tells me that they were deceiving themselves.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Lu 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even **what he **thinks he has ****shall be taken away from him.”

I don’t disagree that many fall away and return on their death beds. My father was one of these.

To help clarify my issue, do you think that the Calvinist view of the predestination of the Elect leads to complacency of the sort in Luke 8:18? Are there those who use this as an excuse to “sin boldly”, as Luther urged?

If so, do they imperil their salvation?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

For all the once Saved Always Saved Worshipers out there:

What did Paul mean when he said “Work out your salvation with fear and Trembling”?

Was Paul Lying?

Should people disobley Paul and the Bible and not Do what he and the Bible says?

 

[Teflon93]

For all the once Saved Always Saved Worshipers out there:

What did Paul mean when he said “Work out your salvation with fear and Trembling”?

Was Paul Lying?

Should people disobley Paul and the Bible and not Do what he and the Bible says?

I do not subscribe to OSAS, but the most common argument I’ve seen put forth is that complacency in salvation is a form of ingratitude to God and a sign that one is not in fact saved.

Now that I think about this, OSAS almost seems a reaction to the excesses Luther enshrined with his “sin boldly” nonsense.

 

[clmowry]

The issue of knowing whether or not you are being saved is something separate.

Isn’t that the question asked in the thread?

Chuck

 

[mikeledes]

This is merely outward righteousness…you cannot say that they were right with God from a justification standpoint.

So you mean Abraham, Moses, Rahab, David, Samuel, etc. were all outwardly righteous? That there were no genuinely righteous people in the Old Covenant, justified by the grace of God? Secondly, in the passages I have presented from Isaiah God Himself have certified them as righteous by saying “He shall live.” God will not justify the unrepentant wicked. He will not call and unrepentant sinner righteous.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his g righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

(g) That is, the false opinion that the hypocrites have of their righteousness. (NGeneva Study Bible)

The problem with this is that God Himself has certified the person as righteous. Let me repeat what I said:

We find a clear example in the Book of Ezekiel. In the Book of Ezekiel, the phrase “He shall surely live” is used to express Divine approval. It is either used as an divine affirmation/confirmation of someone being rigteous before God (i.e.justified).

Ezekiel 18:5-9

**5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, (does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD. **
Or it is used as a declaration of forgiveness:

Ezekiel 18:21

**21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. **

God will never give His approval to a person who has not repented of his wickedness or is not genuinely righteous before His sight. If He says to someone “You shall surely live”, he is giving His seal of approval and saying that that person is righteous in His sight. He will never give His approval to the wicked if they have not repented:

Exodus 34:6-7

6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty,

Exodus 23:7

7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.

And if a person is righteous, it is because God has justified him, He made him righteous. there is no other way a person can be righteous in His sight. Therefore, when we have a verse like;

Ezekiel 33:13

**13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered;but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. **

God has given these people his seal of approval (he shall surely live) and thus they cannot be anything but genuinely righteous for God will not clear or approve the wicked. Remember, God only uses “He shall surely live” when he is affirming somone is genuinely righteous or forgiving a repentant sinner. Therefore, the subject in Ezekiel 33:13 is a genuinely righteous person before God’s sight.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[djrakowski]

It is an excellent point you raise.

We may argue over theology, but clearly Calvinator, Linkowski, and our other Calvinist friends are Christians living the Christian life. We must not forget this.

Praise be to Jesus Christ!

 

[djrakowski]

Why do you all ignore that I have indicated that God ordains not only the end but the means of our salvation as well?? Those who have no evidence that they are children of God can have no assurance of salvation. He does all of this without violating our free will - but by effectual drawing.

What about those who have no evidence of salvation RIGHT NOW - who have either had no evidence of salvation EVER in their lives, or once appeared to be saved but are no longer living in righteousness?

Nobody said, either, that the gathering up of the elect is a piece of cake either. When they elect fall, there has to be someone there to pick them up…it may require the gospel being heard on several occasions before the ground of the heart is prepared properly. You are having wrong presumptions about the gathering up of the elect. It takes work - human means - ALL ORDAINED OF GOD.

I’ve just been reading back throuth this thread, and the portion I’ve underlined is totally compatible with Catholic teaching. I thought our works had nothing to do with our calling, election, predestination and salvation? Now I’m even more confused about what you believe than I was before!

How long can one fall away for??? Do you not think that a fall can last a longer period of time…repentance then can come months/years later.

In one of the quotes above, you stated that “Those who have no evidence that they are children of God can have no assurance of salvation.” Now, you’re saying that one can fall away (and presumably display no evidence of salvation) for a long time, and then return (if they’re a fallen-away Christian) or be saved for the first time (if they had never been living as a Christian). More for me, I’m afraid.

 

[mikeledes]

In one of the quotes above, you stated that “Those who have no evidence that they are children of God can have no assurance of salvation.” Now, you’re saying that one can fall away (and presumably display no evidence of salvation) for a long time, and then return (if they’re a fallen-away Christian) or be saved for the first time (if they had never been living as a Christian). More for me, I’m afraid.

If you can fall away for an indefinite period of time, then what assurance does that person have that they are of the elect? If they have been severed from Christ and fallen from grace, what assurance do they have that they are of the elect?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

It is an excellent point you raise.

We may argue over theology, but clearly Calvinator, Linkowski, and our other Calvinist friends are Christians living the Christian life. We must not forget this.

Now, if they would only wake up and realize how much better Christian living is with ALL the sacraments, we could really celebrate!

I have no life in me. I do not participate in your communion ritual. That’s another thread.

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John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.