How Do I Know I am One of The Elect?

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Linkowski said:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
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OK, this is completely off-topic, but I can’t let this one slide, as I’ve seen this gross misinterpretation too many times.

If all flesh literally profits nothing, then what is the value of Jesus’ incarnation, life, temptation, ministry, death and resurrection?
 
God gives us graces and spiritual gifts so that we may perform the good works that glorify Him. You reap what you sow.

2 Corinthians 9:6-10

**6Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
7Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
9as it is written,
“HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR,
HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ENDURES FOREVER.”
10Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness; **

However, what will happen to those Christians who fail to use these gifts ang graces for the greater glory of God?

Matthew 25:14-30

**14"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
15"To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
16"Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
17"In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
18"But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19"Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.
20"The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’
21"His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’
22"Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’
23"His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’
24"And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
25’And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’
26"But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
27’Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28’Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
29"For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30"Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. **

The “slaves” can only refer to genuine Christians because only to them would Jesus leave His “possessions.” What happened to the one given one talent (i.e. seed) and did not do anything with it (i.e. sow) in order to gain a profit for His master (i.e. reap a harvest and glorify God.)? His “talent” was taken away from him and he was cast into hell. Not a very nice end. This reminds me of John 15:2:

2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Being “in Christ” is a spiritual reality, not a physical reality. A so called “professing” Christian may be physically a member of a Church, but he can never be described as being in Christ (branch in me), if he is not genuinely saved. He cannot be a branch of the vine because a branch is an integral part of the vine, it is literally a part of the body. Once again, further evidence that there are those “in Christ” (i.e. justified) who will not persevere.

God Bless,
Michael
 
So class, let’s review what we’ve learned from Ezekiel. 🤓

"You shall llive means that God has deemed/declared you righteous and pleasing in His sight. Thus, it can never refer to someone who has not been justified by His grace:

Ezekiel 3:21

**21"However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself." **

Ezekiel 18:9

**9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD. **

Ezekiel 18:21

21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

"You shall die means that God has deemed you unrighteous/wicked and God has not found you pleasing in His sight.

Ezekiel 3:19

19"Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity

Ezekiel 18:13

13… He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death…"

Ezekiel 18:23

**23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? **

God never says He shall surely live to anyone who is not righteous in His sight, to a person who has not been justified by His grace. Therefore, when we have a verse like:

Ezekiel 33:13

13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

God will never call a person “righteous” if they have not been justified by His grace and he would definitely not tell that person he shall surely live - a phrase only used in reference to the genuinely righteous and the repentant sinner - if that person is not pleasing in His sight and has not genuinely repented of his sins. That would contradict His express words. These passages are pretty clear and it contradict Calvinism. No “word” gymnastics can obscure the obvious.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Baraq said:
18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his g righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

(g) That is, the false opinion that the hypocrites have of their righteousness. (NGeneva Study Bible)
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Actually, thats when someone loses the trust and reliance he had on God’s mercy, takes God’s certification of approval (“he shall surely live”) for granted and believes that the things he did pleasing to God will cover His treachery. That sounds a little like what was happening in the Church of the Galatians:

Galatians 1:6

6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Galatians 3:3

**3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? **

Galatians 5:2-4

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The righteous described in Ezekiel are genuinely righteous. Otherwise, God Himself would not identify them as “righteous” and would never had said “he shall surely live.”

God Bless,
Michael
 
Let’s look at another couple of verses that talk about loss of salvation:

Romans 14:15, 20

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

Compare that with 1 Corinthians 8:9-10

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

The work of God destroyed? A brother for whom Christ dies perishing? That certainly coontradicts Calvinist theology. We also know that there were Christians that particpated in the sin described in 1 Corinthians.

Revelation 2:20

**20’But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. **

God’s words are never empty in meaning. What He says will occur.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Linkowski said:
Unfortnately, I cannot answer every post. However, what you will not present are your scriptures alongside mine and allow them to complement eachother.
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Your scripture passages and mine combined perfectly compliment each other and paints a very different picture from the one provided by Calvinism. I can recocile all these passages without engaging in gramatical/word gymnastics. I am perfectly comfortable with the express meaning of the words used in each text. There are passages that refer specifically to those predestined to glory. There are passages that specifically talk about those who were ordained to be incorporated in Christ, but were not predestined to glory. And there are passages that talk about the justified in general. I see no contradictions or have “problematic” passages.

God Bless,
Michael
 
ChristianVet said:
Ah…an old heresy, resurrected and propped up.
If what you say were true, we all might as well take a long sleeping pill and wait to be notified of whether or not we are part of the elect!

How ridiculous! Of course, we each have an individual choice of whether or not we choose Christ, whether or not we will perservere, and ultimately whether or not we make it into heaven.

If it weren’t so, we would not be part of God’s plan, just his puppets – as it is we have Free Will, along with that comes maturity and Responsibility.

Now that’s curious. Responsibility – something escapism theology tries to avoid if at all possible.

Let us Take Up our Crosses and Follow Christ.

No one said it would be easy.
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Please read Aquinas newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#2 concerning predestination not placing something in the chosen.
 
Mikeldes: why do you personally think that God through the Inerrant scripture written by St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit command us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”?

Do you obey this command from God? Would you recommend that other christians obey that Command of God?
 
djrakowski said:
OK, this is completely off-topic, but I can’t let this one slide, as I’ve seen this gross misinterpretation too many times.

If all flesh literally profits nothing, then what is the value of Jesus’ incarnation, life, temptation, ministry, death and resurrection?
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You are missing the point/meaning…maybe we can talk over Starbucks as I have suggested…😃
 
OneForTruth said:
Never - attempted reversion three times but the Lord delivered me.
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Heh… different perspectives, I suppose… during my initial inquiry into Catholicism, I tried to get off the conversion path several times, and every time I did, I was pulled right back by the Holy Spirit.

May Christ’s blessings be upon you, bro! :highprayer:
 
OneForTruth said:
Never - attempted reversion three times but the Lord delivered me.
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I am pleased to know where you stand, Linkowski/OneforTruth. Does this mean that when you said you came here with an open mind, you were not being truthful? You were delivered. However, who did the delivering is still in question. 🙂 I will keep you in my prayers and hopefully you will keep me in yours. I pray that through these discussions, the Holy Spirit will open our eyes and show us the truth. I ask this in the name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Mikeldes: why do you personally think that God through the Inerrant scripture written by St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit command us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”?

Do you obey this command from God? Would you recommend that other christians obey that Command of God?
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As a Catholic, my answer would be yes. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
I heard McDonalds coffee is better than Starbucks and a lot cheaper. 😃
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Meh. If we get together, I won’t be drinkin’ coffee… can’t stand the stuff. We’ll have to go somewhere that serves Pepsi or tea 😉
 
I would like to examine four verses, all of which touch on the issue of perseverance. I ask that they be read prayerfully and with care. 🙂

1 Corinthians 9:26

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Philippians 3:12-14

**12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **

Hebrews 4:11

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**

"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."

with Revelation 2:10

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

and James 1:12

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation? :hmmm: It seems that Calvinists are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.

So regarding the original question of this thread, I respond with Saint Paul’s own words:

1 Corinthians 4:4-5

**4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God. **

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
I would like to examine four verses, all of which touch on the issue of perseverance. I ask that they be read prayerfully and with care. 🙂

1 Corinthians 9:26

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Philippians 3:12-14

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 4:11

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:

**20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world **through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**

"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."

with Revelation 2:10

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

and James 1:12

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation? :hmmm: It seems that Calvinists are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.

So regarding the original question of this thread, I respond with Saint Paul’s own words:

1 Corinthians 4:4-5

4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

God Bless,
Michael
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Quoth The Gambler:

“You never count your money when you’re sitting at the table. There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.”

👍
 
The more I read Ezekiel, the more convinced I am that the Calvinists are wrong. Ezekiel 33:13 is actually a “companion piece” to Ezekiel 18:5-9. The latter states:

**5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD. **

So God has declared the person righteous in His sight and finds his righteous acts pleasing. He thus gives the person His seal of approavel (He shall surely live). But what does Ezekiel 33:13 state:

**13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. **

So after God gives his seal of approval to a righteous person (“He shall surely live)” and has thus declared the person and their righteous acts pleasing in His sight, the righteous person now figures that since God was so pleased with him and his conduct, he can “relax” and commit iniquity, believing that his righteous past will cover him. He figures that God is pleased with him, so He’ll cut him some slack. Wrong! We already know what happens. And what happens completely contradicts Calvinist dotrine.

God Bless,
Michael
 
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