J
juliamajor
Guest
This is like a carousel- going around, around and around- it’s starting to make me nauseous
" vapor of vapor says Qoheleth vapor of vapors! All is vapor" Qoheleth 1:2
- Status
" vapor of vapor says Qoheleth vapor of vapors! All is vapor" Qoheleth 1:2
G
Gamera
Guest
Thanks, I do know that “Christ” is not Jesus’ last name, and that “Christ” means “anointed”. All Catholic 7 year olds know that. I’ll assume you were being sarcastic.
What I said was, I am still waiting for a Bible verse that says “accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.” “Accept” being the word you used earlier in this thread. You suggested that being born again entails “accepting” Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I still await any Bible verse that says uses the phrase “ACCEPT Jesus …” I’ve read the Bible cover-to-cover and seen no verse that uses the prhase “ACCEPT Jesus as Savior” or any variation thereof.
G
Gamera
Guest
Not really. Carousels are fun.This is like a carousel- going around, around and around- it’s starting to make me nauseous
G
Gamera
Guest
No, the Bible is not “silent” on whether billions of precious souls can be saved. “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ,” Gal. 3:27. Rather, it is your man-made tradition which is “silent” on this issue because it cannot account for the gaping logical gap in the premise of “faith alone,” precisely because the notion of “faith alone” contradicts the Bible.
M
misslollipops
Guest
Accept could also mean proclaim or simply ‘make the statement’
I refer to matt16:15-17.
Peter says “You are The Christ”
I will look for other references.
Gotta go now!
M
misslollipops
Guest
Subject for another thread
G
Gamera
Guest
Accept is pretty much the opposite of proclaim or ‘make the statement.’ Accept is passive reception. “Proclaim” is an active verb – an action – a work!
Certainly Jesus IS our Savior, but nowhere does the Bible tell us to “accept Jesus as Savior.” That is a man-made tradition of relatively recent vintage. Rather, we are called to repent, to obey, to be baptized, to receive reconciliation when we sin … to do a lot of things, but not just to ‘accept.’
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
If this is your idea of a dialogue, it is not fair. You make claims about what Scripture means, we present our alternative interpretation and rationale as well as our disagreement with your interpretation and rationale. You feel no obligation to explain where you disagree with the interpretation or rationale we present. You just restate your original premise. Wow.
L
Linnyo
Guest
I’ve never heard a Catholic deny that they are being saved by Jesus!
P
Pier
Guest
Are you seriously considering these responses, or is your original question a semantical litmus test posed merely to present your point of view?
P
Prayer_Warrior
Guest
We have said that the Biblical definition of being born again is being born of Spirit and water (John 3:5). This is what Jesus said to Nicodemus. He did not say “born again” means declaring Him Lord and repenting (though it is clear in scripture that we need to do that). We are talking about what Jesus said you need to do to be born again— this is not the same thing as all the things that Jesus said we need to do to be saved. Being “born again” is the beginning of the process, not the end.
To continue, we said being born of Spirit and water means baptism. To which you responded “no, because during baptism you are not born of the Spirit”. So, then I showed you that Gal 3:27 says that the people who were baptized were “clothed in Christ”. We discussed that clothed in Christ is another way of saying “putting on a new self” or “making no provision for flesh”. Then I asked if you can put on a new self without the Holy Spirit. You said, quite rightly, no. THUS, it can be concluded that you do recieve the Holy Spirit at baptism as Gal 3:27 says and as Catholics have been saying all along. HENCE, baptism does meet the criteria of being born in Spirit AND water.
Simply saying Jesus is Lord and Savior does not qualify to be called “born again” under the biblical definition per John 3:5. And, considering that Catholics most certainly do conciously repent and proclaim Jesus as Lord, all of this is pretty much a moot point.
T
thomasf
Guest
Are you saying you don’t sin now?
As a catholic, as a christian, as a human being, I am a sinner. No matter how many times I say the sinners prayer and ‘accept Jesus as my personal lord and saviour’. We are fallen by nature. Our duty and our goal in life is to live as sinless as possible, even though it’s not possible to be 100% sin free.
My point was, what if you were always a believer in Christ? What if you start life and are given faith from your parents, and you believe in Christ as God and follow your faith? If you start as a christian, you can’t have a conversion experience, or be ‘born again’ as you call it, or be ‘saved’ as an event. If you start your life and always believe in Jesus, then you’ll never have a chance to be saved, by your rather ridiculous definition of being ‘born again’.
T
TobyLue
Guest
misslollipops
However, as has been posted before we see what Jesus has to say about being born again. John 3: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Oh, wait, how stupid of me. here is the new translation according to misslollipops. Verily, very, I say unto thee, except a man get up and start jumping around, go blind for three days, is able to remember this exact moment, experience jubilation, start speaking in tongues, you are not born again.
Are we to believe that since you have been “born again” and have the Holy Spirit, that not one single tiny fleshly thing has crossed you mind? You have not sinned at all? If you claim you do not sin you are a liar according to 1 John. Remember also “The man who thinks he is safe must be careful that he does not fall.”
You have mentioned several times what is necessary to be born again. Please answer this: show us that your claims about what is necessary to be born again has been a constant teaching of the Church for 2000 years. Did the ECF’s talk about all that stuff you insist is necessary to be born again? Was this a teaching before we had a bible? What about the year 100, or 200, or 300, or 400; was this a teaching back then?
Boy talk about making things up as you go along to make them mean what you want them to mean. In Acts 2, there is no mention whatsoever that there has to be a great change in a person, speak in tongues, jump around in order to be born again. Nothing that says "there men are now “born again” .Misslollipops, please show us where in acts two it says that this is the requirement to be born again. You are making these things up mlp
However, as has been posted before we see what Jesus has to say about being born again. John 3: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Oh, wait, how stupid of me. here is the new translation according to misslollipops. Verily, very, I say unto thee, except a man get up and start jumping around, go blind for three days, is able to remember this exact moment, experience jubilation, start speaking in tongues, you are not born again.
You are casting stones again and judging. How many people that have made all sorts of claims that they have the Holy Spirit in them, because they were born again, and had all the emotions of which you speak and have committed sins of the flesh? I won’t name names but some have been great televangelists who made the same claims you are making.
Are we to believe that since you have been “born again” and have the Holy Spirit, that not one single tiny fleshly thing has crossed you mind? You have not sinned at all? If you claim you do not sin you are a liar according to 1 John. Remember also “The man who thinks he is safe must be careful that he does not fall.”
You have mentioned several times what is necessary to be born again. Please answer this: show us that your claims about what is necessary to be born again has been a constant teaching of the Church for 2000 years. Did the ECF’s talk about all that stuff you insist is necessary to be born again? Was this a teaching before we had a bible? What about the year 100, or 200, or 300, or 400; was this a teaching back then?
If you think you were born again when you started speaking in tongues, jumped around, experience an emotion (which is unbiblical), I leave you up to the mercy of Our Lord.
T
TobyLue
Guest
thomasf
Yes, and thank God we have the confessional that we can go to, humble ourselves, say the Act of Contrition with a firm purpose of amendment, ask God to forgive us because “most of all we have offended [H]im, who are all good and deserving of all our love” and be assured we are forgiven when we hear “… I absolve you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” to which we can say with a resounding voice “Ahhhhhh men”,……… Praise the Lord!!!
D
DeniseR
Guest
I think you should invite your husband to attend church with you. Maybe invite him to pray with you from time to time. In the meantime, keep praying for him – for his conversion. You never know. One day he may take you up on your offer and decide he is being pulled towards God.Hi,
I know you mean well, but I could not, in good conscious encourage him in catholocism because I would be lying, as you know I do not agree with it.
Yes I should be in submission to him.However, God has put him in my spiritual care right now and I do believe God is working on him through my actions.(I do see signs of hope
)
Since I am submitting to God’s will, I have to believe that I am doing exactly what God wants me to be doing and that is leading my husband to the truth of salvation through my NONSPEAKING actions:thumbsup:
OH btw–the salvation message I believe is not a belief I take lightly but very seriously. I do happen to believe the bible is very clear on the salvation message and honestly when I read it through the eyes of the Holy Spirit–it was crystal clear. I didnt need any intrepretation.
Whereas I do believe there are areas of the bible that are difficult to understand–this is not one of them.
The two of you can’t go wrong if you are praying together. Conversion works differently in everyone. There are hundreds, thousands of conversion stories with situations that start out like yours. Time can pass and eventually you might mature together spiritually and want something more meaningful and deeper for your marriage and your understanding of the beautiful history of Christ’s church with the richness and fullness. After praying about it and opening your heart to it, you may both find your way home – to the Catholic Church. God Bless.
X
xfrodobagginsx
Guest
No, this is accomplished by the Holy Spirit.
X
xfrodobagginsx
Guest
…but the baptism only represents what happens Spiritually when we call on the name of the Lord for salvation. The Holy Spirit raises our dead Spirit from the dead, thus, we are truly born again of the Spirit.
F
fellowChristian
Guest
The Sacraments
** What is a sacrament? **
A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
**
How many sacraments are there? **
There are seven sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.
** From whom do the sacraments receive their power to give grace?**
The sacraments receive their power to give grace from God, through the merits of Jesus Christ.
Let a man so account us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God**.
(I Corinthians 4:1)**
** Do the sacraments give sanctifying grace? **
The sacraments do give sanctifying grace.
Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. **(Acts 8:17) **
**
Does each of the sacraments also give a special grace?**
Each of the sacraments also gives a special grace, called sacramental grace, which helps one to carry out the particular purpose of that sacrament.
** Do the sacraments always give grace? **
The sacraments always give grace if we receive them with the right dispositions.
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, will be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. **(I Corinthians 11:27) **
** Why are Baptism and Penance called sacraments of the dead? **
Baptism and Penance are called sacraments of the dead because their chief purpose is to give the supernatural life of sanctifying grace to souls spiritually dead through sin.
Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (**John 3:5) **
** Why are Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony called sacraments of the living? **
Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony are called sacraments of the living because their chief purpose is to give more grace to souls already spiritually alive through sanctifying grace.
** What sin does one commit who knowingly receives a sacrament of the living in mortal sin? **
He who knowingly receives a sacrament of the living in mortal sin commits a mortal sin of sacrilege, because he treats a sacred thing with grave irreverence.
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, will be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. **(I Corinthians 11:27) **
Which are the sacraments that can be received only once?
The sacraments that can be received only once are Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders.
** Why can Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders be received only once? **
Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders can be received only once because they imprint on the soul a spiritual mark, called a character, which lasts forever.
And do not grieve the Holy Ghost of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. **(Ephesians 4:30) **
** What is a sacrament? **
A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
**
How many sacraments are there? **
There are seven sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.
** From whom do the sacraments receive their power to give grace?**
The sacraments receive their power to give grace from God, through the merits of Jesus Christ.
Let a man so account us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God**.
(I Corinthians 4:1)**
** Do the sacraments give sanctifying grace? **
The sacraments do give sanctifying grace.
Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. **(Acts 8:17) **
**
Does each of the sacraments also give a special grace?**
Each of the sacraments also gives a special grace, called sacramental grace, which helps one to carry out the particular purpose of that sacrament.
** Do the sacraments always give grace? **
The sacraments always give grace if we receive them with the right dispositions.
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, will be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. **(I Corinthians 11:27) **
** Why are Baptism and Penance called sacraments of the dead? **
Baptism and Penance are called sacraments of the dead because their chief purpose is to give the supernatural life of sanctifying grace to souls spiritually dead through sin.
Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (**John 3:5) **
** Why are Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony called sacraments of the living? **
Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony are called sacraments of the living because their chief purpose is to give more grace to souls already spiritually alive through sanctifying grace.
** What sin does one commit who knowingly receives a sacrament of the living in mortal sin? **
He who knowingly receives a sacrament of the living in mortal sin commits a mortal sin of sacrilege, because he treats a sacred thing with grave irreverence.
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, will be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. **(I Corinthians 11:27) **
Which are the sacraments that can be received only once?
The sacraments that can be received only once are Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders.
** Why can Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders be received only once? **
Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders can be received only once because they imprint on the soul a spiritual mark, called a character, which lasts forever.
And do not grieve the Holy Ghost of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. **(Ephesians 4:30) **
X
xfrodobagginsx
Guest
Grace comes through FAITH not baptism.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved** through faith**; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
P
Prayer_Warrior
Guest
The Holy Spirit comes with Baptism. See my previous posts. You cannot be clothed in Christ without the Holy Spirit and Gal 3:27 says that when we are baptized we become “clothed in Christ”.
- Status