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PatienceAndLove
Guest
No, I meant “born again”. I was born into the power and love of Christ at my Baptism, I had what you would call a born again experience during the experience I mentioned in my previous post.
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Teflon93
Guest
Perhaps you should read my post again. As you may have noticed, I’m a fan of the sacrament of penance. It forces an examination of conscience which is largely absent in the Protestant community, particularly among OSAS adherents.
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Teflon93
Guest
Rom 8
**1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. **
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
**1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. **
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Teflon93
Guest
As we can see IN CONTEXT here, Paul is referring to the SINS of the flesh.
He is not making the argument that Christians no longer have fleshly bodies, nor are immune to temptations of the flesh.
Indeed, you’ve provided a handy reference to my point that flesh does not equal sin, because Christ was made flesh.
What Paul is clearly saying in this chapter is that we should act like Christ, and act as though are flesh were dead the moment we embraced him.
And—surprise!—that is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches when she talks of temptation and sin, and the need to avoid even the near occasion of sin.
He is not making the argument that Christians no longer have fleshly bodies, nor are immune to temptations of the flesh.
Indeed, you’ve provided a handy reference to my point that flesh does not equal sin, because Christ was made flesh.
What Paul is clearly saying in this chapter is that we should act like Christ, and act as though are flesh were dead the moment we embraced him.
And—surprise!—that is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches when she talks of temptation and sin, and the need to avoid even the near occasion of sin.
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heisenburg
Guest
Miss…
I actually dont think we disagree in essence…
One - Baptism removes stain of original sin (you may disagree with this point though)
Two - Repentance completely cleanses us of all sin. In other words, as soon we repent, we are completely clean, blameless, and sin free…
Three - Inevitably, our weak human nature will more than likely lead us to sin once again. At which point, we require his forgiveness once again…
Four - see step two
My main problem with how some teach forgiveness is when people say once you are saved, all sin you have committed, as well as all sin you will commit are forgive at that instant. If you mean that Gods Forgiveness is available to you from that point forward, OK, but that is a far cry from saying all sin is forgiven for you ever, thats heresy. (This is a theology often taught by OSASers.)
Bad analogy, but it works…
I liken His forgiveness to winning a golden ticket for an airline. You can fly anywhere, anytime, for free. You just have to ask for the ticket when you need it.
In Christ
I actually dont think we disagree in essence…
One - Baptism removes stain of original sin (you may disagree with this point though)
Two - Repentance completely cleanses us of all sin. In other words, as soon we repent, we are completely clean, blameless, and sin free…
Three - Inevitably, our weak human nature will more than likely lead us to sin once again. At which point, we require his forgiveness once again…
Four - see step two
My main problem with how some teach forgiveness is when people say once you are saved, all sin you have committed, as well as all sin you will commit are forgive at that instant. If you mean that Gods Forgiveness is available to you from that point forward, OK, but that is a far cry from saying all sin is forgiven for you ever, thats heresy. (This is a theology often taught by OSASers.)
Bad analogy, but it works…
I liken His forgiveness to winning a golden ticket for an airline. You can fly anywhere, anytime, for free. You just have to ask for the ticket when you need it.
In Christ
G
Gamera
Guest
These posts seem to contradict each other. Yes, when Jesus forgave my sins last Saturday, he washed them away – leaving me sinless. That didn’t remove my ability to sin in the future. I very well might sin again, although I am firmly resolved not to. But at the moment I am sinless, thanks to Jesus’ precious blood.
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misslollipops
Guest
Repentance comes first then baptism
Other than that I agree
Repentance is what leads to forgiveness and being born again
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Teflon93
Guest
And what did John the Baptist repent of? Chapter and verse would be nice.
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misslollipops
Guest
read post 663
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Teflon93
Guest
You can use the hyperlink feature to save a step. It’s the globe and chain icon just above the typing window.
Click on the number of the post, highlight the URL in the browser address line, CTRL-C (on a PC), click on the hyperlink icon above, and CTRL-V. If you like to be fancy, highlight some text before clicking the hyperlink icon.
Voila!
And yes, I said the opposite of what you said I did.
I said that personal sin does require repentance, which prompted you inexplicably to respond that if I didn’t think personal sin required repentance…yadda yadda yadda.
You can compare it right in your response.
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maurin
Guest
well there it is, on top, misslollipops, along with your inappropriate reply.
still one must ask why you would state “If you don’t think your personal sin needs repentance” when Teflon clearly says, “Personal sin does require repentance.”
At least you are consistent in your inconsistencies and putting words into people’s mouths that weren’t there to start with.
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maurin
Guest
And at least you are consistent in your error:
Let’s look at Acts 2:38 and 39:
Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.
The Greek is: ‘metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon’, literally, ‘if you repent then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized.’
‘then each one who is a part of you and yours’ clearly teaches that even children and babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith, and not on their own. This dovetails very nicely with the Healing of the Centurion’s Servant.
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Church_Militant
Guest
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rpp
Guest
Did belief in Judaism come before a Jewish male baby was circumcised?
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Teflon93
Guest
What makes this even more odd is that many Protestants do indeed baptize their babies, although they tend to call it “christening”. I was christened as a baby as an Episcopalian. We attended my niece’s christening at a Methodist service. My other niece was christened at a Presbyterian service if I recall correctly.
What it is they think they’re doing at the time is apparently a mystery if they don’t believe anything counts until the age of consent.
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misslollipops
Guest
So the children and babies do not have to repent and they get the Holy Spirit? They get born again without repenting?
If that were the case, then 2000 years ago, the first person who repented would have covered every generation after him till today. His children would be born again without repenting then the children’s children would be born again without repenting and so on and so on.
Repentance is the key.
Each person must do it to be born again.
One person cannot do it for another.
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maurin
Guest
Actually, in my family (we’re Italian-Americans and all Catholic) Baptism is commonly referred to as “the baby’s Christening.”
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maurin
Guest
Arguing with Jesus’ teaching now, are you? Seems you need to take it up with Him.
However, for me and my house, we will serve the Lord on His terms, not on man-made traditions that are less than 500 years old.
but good luck with your way.
And actually, upon reaching the age of reason, all are responsible for their knowing God–what you might call one’s personal relationship with Him.
Solid Christian teaching.
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misslollipops
Guest
I could have sworn he said"personal sin does NOT require repentance"
I read it wrong sorry.
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Gamera
Guest
I don’t follow this line of reasoning. Every child is conceived with original sin. It doesn’t matter whether the parents are in a state of grace or not at the time of conception. Two spouses might both be in a state of grace — “saved” if you like — when they conceive a child, but that child still will be in a state of original sin.
Even if every person in the whole world got “saved” / entered a state of grace tomorrow, and remained that way for life, still every new child conceived would be in a state of original sin.
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