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misslollipops
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That is called isogesis
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misslollipops
Guest
Personally I believe God has a special way of dealing with children.
If we look at Sodom and Gomorra, God didn’t say “save all the children smite all the adults.” He burned the whole place to the ground. God is just and I don’t believe He could hold those children accountable for the sins of the parents.
Same with the flood. All were taken save the eight on the ark, children included.
I don’t think the children were judged like the adults even though they were all taken.
I feel the same about anyone who hasn’t been given the choice to repent.
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st_lucy
Guest
So you are allowed to step away from scripture if you have a 'personal belief" or is it only if what ever it is you are trying to force into a verse just does not fit.
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Gamera
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See, Mislollipops, this is the fatal flaw in the doctrine of sola fide (“faith alone”).
You’ve personally posted three contradictory positions: (1) babies come into this world as “filthy sinners” (inheriting orignal sin); (2) babies are holy until the age of reason; and (3) the Bible is silent about babies so you don’t know the answer.
These three are all mutually exclusive. That isn’t your fault – the fault lies in the false doctrine of “salvation by faith alone.”
We all come into this world stained by original sin. (St Paul’s letter to the Romans, which you frequently cite, tells us that). God does provide a method for removing original sin from everyone, even babies. It’s baptism. Yes, an adult must have faith and repent in order to be baptized, but God doesn’t require those conditions from infants because it’s beyond them.
We are saved BY grace, and those of us capable of faith get grace THROUGH faith. But we certainly are not “saved by faith alone.” We are saved by grace alone.
You’ve personally posted three contradictory positions: (1) babies come into this world as “filthy sinners” (inheriting orignal sin); (2) babies are holy until the age of reason; and (3) the Bible is silent about babies so you don’t know the answer.
These three are all mutually exclusive. That isn’t your fault – the fault lies in the false doctrine of “salvation by faith alone.”
We all come into this world stained by original sin. (St Paul’s letter to the Romans, which you frequently cite, tells us that). God does provide a method for removing original sin from everyone, even babies. It’s baptism. Yes, an adult must have faith and repent in order to be baptized, but God doesn’t require those conditions from infants because it’s beyond them.
We are saved BY grace, and those of us capable of faith get grace THROUGH faith. But we certainly are not “saved by faith alone.” We are saved by grace alone.
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djrakowski
Guest
In other words, babies and the mentally disabled are damned to hell, even though they can’t conceive of accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior?
What sort of monstrous god would do as you’ve described? And, where do you find this concept in the Bible?
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djrakowski
Guest
So, we’ve moved from thinking that everything must be specifically justified by scripture, to “Personally I believe?” With all due respect, are you serious?
Is our salvation and that of our children and disabled loved ones is subject to “Personally I believe,” “I don’t think,” and “I feel?”
You mustn’t be serious.
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djrakowski
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:yup: just as He didn’t require the sons of Israel to have faith to enter the covenant through circumcision on the 8th day after birth.
misslollipops, why would the new covenant, which is described as being better than the first (Heb. 7:22, 8:6) suddenly exclude some of those who were included in the first covenant? Does that sound like a better covenant to you? In your eisegesis of scripture, you’ve made the better covenant even more restrictive than the one it supposedly perfected!
edit: misslollipops has imposed an order of events that’s not in the text of Mark 16:16. She’s stated that you need to have faith, then be baptized. That’s adding a word to the text that isn’t there, and I’m not sure any of us should feel comfortable adding to scripture!
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juliamajor
Guest
So you personally believe that God has a special way of dealing with children!!-where is your biblical proof- come on -quote chapter and verse! Quote it so we may all believe as you do.
. Flaccid theology and empty repetition of certain scripture do not make for sound dogma doctrine or even good Christianity. God is just but He is also compassionate. Your version of God reflects you and it makes you oh so comfortable and superior to pass judgment on all those who don’t live up to your version of "born again"Thank God we have the whole of the Bible and not just carefully chosen snippets to guide us .
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juliamajor
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No it’s not isogesis it’s called theology
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misslollipops
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The bible is silent on the issue that is why it is MY belief
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Gamera
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Great. OUR belief is that baptism washes away original sin from everyone including babies.
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misslollipops
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how about acts2:38 Repent and be baptized
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized
You should open your bible.
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Tracyms1974
Guest
To me personally, being born again can mean lots of different things depending on your situation and/or stage in life.
Being baptised is one surefire way to be born again in Christ, but really, that’s only the beginning. When you are a baby, you have a lot of “life” left to live and thus, a lot of responsibility to make that Baptism count for something.
You can say that you are born again when you are in second grade and receive the Eucharist for the first time. When I received my first Eucharist, boy I thought I was special! I felt like finally, I can be like everyone else now and not have to wait anymore! Little did I know that the cause of my impatience was not just a wafer but Jesus Himself.
You can say that you are born again when you receive the Sacrament of Confirmation, that holy day when you make the decision to be Catholic for the rest of your life. The same goes for men who receive Holy Orders or for nuns who decide to join the convent. God bless them always!
You can say that you are born again if and when you decide to leave the church for a while for whatever reason, be it sin in your life or some cross to bear that you feel you cannot handle, and you then by the Grace of God decide to come back. This my friends is a profound example of being born again. For people to come back to God is sometimes a very hard thing to do, and they should be commended for that. I guess the Sacrament of Reconciliation should be mentioned here although the devout can experience a smaller sense of being born again as well through this sacrament.
If you are married in the Church, you can experience the Love of Christ through your spouse. Yet another way to be born again.
I am aware that Anointing of the Sick can be done at any time for anyone. My parish priest anointed me one time when I was about to undergo surgery. However, if one lies on their deathbed, Anointing of the Sick can be a powerful last resort for those who did not take advantage of all the ways in which God has given us to be “born again” as I have described. It can also be a beautiful conclusion to the life of a devout Catholic person.
So, there you go. There are many ways to be born again in Christ Jesus. Some may have such a cross to bear in this life that they find that they must be born again every day through prayer. “Give us this day our daily bread…” is how the prayer goes. I myself wish I had the humility to pray every day with honesty and intensity, but I always find something that needs to be done. Maybe one day I’ll learn! Jesus is always there and ready to listen, ready to be born again into our hearts as many times as is necessary for our salvation.
Tracy
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maurin
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misslollipops?
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misslollipops
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You are mistaken as I have shown repeatedly
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krissy343
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Could it be any clearer than this? Notice He does not say “Bring to me only the children who are of age of reason” or “These infants have not repented! Be gone with them! But bring them back when they are of age of reason”
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misslollipops
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Are you suggesting that when the children touched Jesus they would be born again? Lk18:15-17
Would they be baptized by touching Him?
Or Would they be blessed?
While you have your bible open how about reading lk18:13-14
the tax collector REPENTS and then is justified. Wow where have we seen that before?
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Gamera
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Why would baptism have been required before Jesus had died? Baptism admits a person to the New Covenant. The tax collector was still under the Old Covenant – the New Covenant hadn’t yet come into existence when Jesus told this parable because Jesus hadn’t yet died for our sins. And how did the tax collector enter the Old Covenant? When he was circumcised as a baby.
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juliamajor
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Whoa- do you have an attitude - do you think that the only one who reads scripture and thinks she knows what it means? Becoming Born again has made you superior to us lesser mortals?How about humilityPhlp2:3
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Gamera
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You just got finished saying that your answer is YOUR belief, NOT found in the Bible. So how can you maintain that you have “shown” anything? You’ve disagreed, that’s true, but you haven’t “shown” us any Scriptural support – you yourself just claimed the Bible is silent on the topic.
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