How do I know if I'm born again?

[LSK]

Yeah I know the truth is extremely difficult to take sometimes. Especially because we are human and dont want to insult or hurt anyones feelings but the truth is the truth and the bible is very specific on what it takes to get to heaven. If my hubby is not following that truth well-----That is why I pray for his salvation because I want him to go to heaven.

YOU ARE RIGHT - so if you are not eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus you will not be getting into heaven. Holy Scripture is very specific on that point. So, the problem, using your own reasoning, is that anyone who is not partaking of the Sacrament of Holy Communion will not be entering into eternal glory.

 

[LSK]

So a baby can’t sin until he reaches the age of reason?
Are you saying it is impossible for the baby to sin or whatever a baby does it is not ‘considered’ sin until the age of reason?
And when is the age of reason?

You are correct - the age of reason is the age of 7. A child cannot commit a sin - mortal or venial - before that age.
Can they do things that are wrong? Of course - but their parents are there to instruct them, in faith and morals.

 

[savedsinner]

I know this for certain: I was baptized as an infant , Confirmed at age twelve,then Holy communion and in church for many years.
But it wasn’t until many years later that I became born again of the spirit. I learned about true repentance and turned my whole life over to God.
As soon as I did that I began to see a change in my life. The old me was going away and there was a new me emerging.
The new person looks nothing like the old person.
So Pauls words in Romans really strike home about putting to death the flesh.
Baptism by the spirit is like cutting your flesh, that is why it is compared to circumcision. I have never felt anything like this before.
My life is so radically changed, my old friends do not even want to be around me anymore. I talk different, think different, I am immersed in the Word, go to my church 4 times a week, head up an evangelism team, and a bunch of other stuff.
So did I get born again as an infant?

Yes your were born again as an infant.
It is not just a emotional thing, it actually changes your soul, leaving an indelible mark that will last forever.
The church fathers link “born again” to baptism.
You recieved the Holy Spirit at your baptism.
What you would have experience is the stirring of the Holy Spirit which was already within you, when you decided to live your live more as a Christian, you made your faith an internal one.
You originally recieved the Holy Spirit at baptism and at comfirmation, and this was kind of like a “re-awakining” of the spirit within you.
You can describe this change in your live as being born again, but technically, that only happened once in your life, which is at your baptism.

 

[LSK]

According to the bible

No, according to the false interpretation you are being taught regarding Holy Scripture.

Remember, it is the Catholic Church which gave the world the cannonized books of the Bible. It is The Holy Mother Church’s gift to the world. She is its guardian.

If you wish to be a Christian like the very FIRST Christians you must go back BEYOND the Bible as you know it today. You are an intelligent woman. Do your own research. Resist the urge to follow false authority. The grace you received at your Baptism will guide you to Truth.

 

[djrakowski]

We aready covered this in previous posts. If you go back you can find the answer. Thanks

You didn’t cover this by quoting scripture, but rather, by giving us your own opinion. It would be nice to understand the fate of such people as scripture describes it.

 

[Teflon93]

I could have sworn he said"personal sin does NOT require repentance"
I read it wrong sorry.

No problem—lots of posts to read.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Yes, I was born again at baptism.

I’ve seen the baptismal certificate and the photographs, and I believe my parents who have recounted it to me.

Are you sure that’s the answer you want to give? From the catechism:

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5
1224 Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to "fulfill all righteousness."19 Jesus’ gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying.20 The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his "beloved Son."21

 Does there not need to be a voluntary submission sometime after the age of reason, and not just going with the flow, as some cultural Catholics might have a tendency? Does a certificate really indicate whether one has submitted himself to baptism, and entered into (is living) the Catholic faith?

1226 From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."26 The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family."28

Should there not be a repentance after the age of reason? What infant is repenting? Their sins may be washed away, yet don’t they need in the future to repent when they are mentally able?

1231 Where** infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here. **

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants **may also **have been baptized.53

The Church does not say definitely, states “may also have been baptised.” Seems a bit cautionary?

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”

Surely an infant does not have faith. Is it not the faith of their parents? At some point that faith needs to be their own, and mature. My parents faith at my infant baptism needed my faith to step up when I was older. After all, at adult baptism, is the adult’s parent’s faith all that is needed?

Michael
Phil 4:4-9

 

[Teflon93]

you are a believer
you baptise your kids they become born again and never repent.
your kids grow up, they are believers
they baptize their kids who become born again and never repent
and so on.
Each person needs to repent before being born again

Well, there is the slight matter of whether or not they sin after baptism.

After all, if they don’t sin, they have nothing of which to repent, right?

If they do sin, they must repent—we do have the sacrament of penance, you know.

And to be confirmed in the Catholic Church, one must avail oneself of that sacrament, since someone utterly refraining from sin since baptism is practically impossible.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

continued:

1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. **Preparation for Baptism **leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.

What preparation does an infant undergo before baptism? Their more concerning with nursing, stooling, and voiding.

1255 **For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents’ help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized **- child or adult on the road of Christian life.55 Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium).56 **The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism. **

So, it’s more than just a certificate, as some with certificates have not gone on to have the grace of Baptism unfold.

Michael
Phil 4:4-9

 

[Teflon93]

If baptism doesn’t save babies why do it?

As we’ve noted, we inherit original sin; we commit personal sin.

Persistence in either impedes salvation.

Baptism washes away both; but you may only be baptized once.

If you commit personal sin post-baptism, you must repent. This is required before confirmation and at any time you commit a mortal sin thereafter.

So we baptize babies to remove Original Sin, which cannot be removed but through baptism. You cannot confess original sin.

 

[Church_Militant]

As we’ve noted, we inherit original sin; we commit personal sin.

Persistence in either impedes salvation.

Baptism washes away both; but you may only be baptized once.

If you commit personal sin post-baptism, you must repent. This is required before confirmation and at any time you commit a mortal sin thereafter.

So we baptize babies to remove Original Sin, which cannot be removed but through baptism. You cannot confess original sin.

 

[Teflon93]

I know this for certain: I was baptized as an infant , Confirmed at age twelve,then Holy communion and in church for many years.
But it wasn’t until many years later that I became born again of the spirit. I learned about true repentance and turned my whole life over to God.
As soon as I did that I began to see a change in my life. The old me was going away and there was a new me emerging.
The new person looks nothing like the old person.
So Pauls words in Romans really strike home about putting to death the flesh.
Baptism by the spirit is like cutting your flesh, that is why it is compared to circumcision. I have never felt anything like this before.
My life is so radically changed, my old friends do not even want to be around me anymore. I talk different, think different, I am immersed in the Word, go to my church 4 times a week, head up an evangelism team, and a bunch of other stuff.
So did I get born again as an infant?

Yes you did. Then you fell away along the way, didn’t avail yourself of the rite of penance (I’m speculating) beyond what was required for confirmation, and eventually had a life-changing experience which called you back to Christ, but not yet to his Church.

So yes, you were born again at Baptism.

And guess what? If you choose to switch denominations or perhaps even areas, you will likely find a pastor who will tell you you’re not born again right now, because you don’t believe as he believes.

My old Pentecostal pastor used to tell us we were saved or not saved in alternating weeks. It wreaked havoc on people who rose and fell on his word. And—shocking—most of them have since gone elsewhere.

Remember your Scripture—God does not come to all as a bolt of lightning. He is found many times out in the wilderness, and then only when Earthly concerns are passed away through fasting and loneliness. That is where John the Baptist found Him, you know. Saul’s experience was dramatically different. Do you question whether John was born again?

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

You didn’t cover this by quoting scripture, but rather, by giving us your own opinion. It would be nice to understand the fate of such people as scripture describes it.

Which Catholic Scripture and catechism paragraphs do we have as Catholics to answer that question? The link for the Catechism on Baptism:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1272

Michael
Phil 4:4-9

 

[rlg94086]

Which Catholic Scripture and catechism paragraphs do we have as Catholics to answer that question? The link for the Catechism on Baptism:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1272

Michael
Phil 4:4-9

Hi Michael,

If you check the footnotes, there are links in the Catechism to Scripture, as well as earlier Church documents. If you are looking for a magic bullet Scripture quote, I don’t think one exists.

Pax,
Robert

 

[djrakowski]

Which Catholic Scripture and catechism paragraphs do we have as Catholics to answer that question? The link for the Catechism on Baptism:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1272

Michael
Phil 4:4-9

Oh, I know how to answer these questions from a Catholic perspective. We are incorporated into the body of Christ by means of baptism, just as paragraph 1272 explains. Unfortunately, misslollipops denies that fact, and has insisted that there’s no reason to baptize people who’ve not reached the ‘age of reason,’ which presumably includes very young children and those with serious mental disabilities (like my oldest son). She’s repeatedly insisted that we’re all born into this world as filthy sinners, yet says that people who’ve not yet reached the ‘age of reason’ are exempt from the penalty our sins deserve. Thus, one is led to speculate that misslollipops believes there are exceptions to the rule that one must repent of personal sin in order to be saved. There’s a serious, serious gap in her theological system that she’s only been willing to answer with vague references and personal opinions.

However, from Bible-only Christians, I’ve only received rather uncertain references to an ‘age of reason,’ and have yet to see this concept defined from a Bible-only perspective. This is something I find quite curious in light of their stance that every doctrine must either be explicit or implicit in the pages of scripture.

It’s not a matter of mere theological speculation. The souls of real people are at stake in this matter. How you view this matter deeply affects your ministry to such people.

 

[rlg94086]

Does there not need to be a voluntary submission sometime after the age of reason, and not just going with the flow, as some cultural Catholics might have a tendency? Does a certificate really indicate whether one has submitted himself to baptism, and entered into (is living) the Catholic faith?

Baptism removes Original Sin (as well as all other sin), so it is more than a certificate. Yes, after the age of reason voluntary submission does occur - First Confession, Confirmation, annual (at least) renewal of Baptismal promises. Whether a Catholic “goes with the flow” or not, their Baptism is still valid. However, if they commit mortal sin and fail to receive absolution, they will not be saved.

Should there not be a repentance after the age of reason? What infant is repenting? Their sins may be washed away, yet don’t they need in the future to repent when they are mentally able?

Yes, there is repentance at First Confession and any time someone confesses their mortal sin they make a promise to repent and “sin no more.”

The Church does not say definitely, states “may also have been baptised.” Seems a bit cautionary?

What would you expect the Church to say? The Scripture says “whole households,” so that does not explicitly state infants were there. We do have evidence of the Church baptizing infants very early (2nd Century?), but that doesn’t *prove without a shadow of a doubt *it was done before. Then again, there is no evidence to the contrary.

Surely an infant does not have faith. Is it not the faith of their parents? At some point that faith needs to be their own, and mature. My parents faith at my infant baptism needed my faith to step up when I was older. After all, at adult baptism, is the adult’s parent’s faith all that is needed?

Yes, it is the faith of the parents at an infant Baptism. Yes, at some point, it becomes the individuals own faith. At an adult Baptism, the parent’s faith is irrellevant.

Pax,
Robert

 

[Gamera]

Are you sure that’s the answer you want to give?

Yes. I am sure that’s the answer I want to give.

 

[Philthy]

Original sin, since it is not a choice but a birthright, is not washed away by repentance. One cannot wish away a birth defect. Baptism washes it away.

Personal sin does require repentance.

It is not the flesh which causes sin (that’s a Gnostic heresy), but the will. Christ was made flesh, and still did not sin.

“The flesh causes me to sin” is, again, a requirement of those who accept OSAS. Once they determine that they are “born again” and therefore eternally secure, they must rationalize away their sin as being A) The normal state of affairs for a saved person (they are their own living proof that saved people sin) B) Irrelevent to their salvation and, therefore C) Not really their fault/ part of God’s plan.
These are the same folks who simultaneously deny that sin impacts one’s salvation (especially their own!) while claiming that the radically sinful life of another is an indication that he or she is not saved. Good luck making sense of that…
The problem with the “The flesh causes me to sin” line of reasoning is that it denies the capability of God’s grace to overcome temptation and sin during this life. They are literally concluding that it is impossible to not sin. IMHO this directly contradicts Paul’s 1st Letter to the Corinthians 10:13 “No trial has come to you except what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength, but with the trial he will provide a way out so that you may be able to bear it.” That way out is through His grace, but it requires a level of detachment from the world in order to allow it to have its greatest efficacy. When we fall to temptation it is not because we CAN"T NOT sin, or that we must sin, it is because we chose not to avail ourselves completely of Gods grace. I, unfortunately, know this all too well.

 

[Teflon93]

“The flesh causes me to sin” is, again, a requirement of those who accept OSAS. Once they determine that they are “born again” and therefore eternally secure, they must rationalize away their sin as being A) The normal state of affairs for a saved person (they are their own living proof that saved people sin) B) Irrelevent to their salvation and, therefore C) Not really their fault/ part of God’s plan.
These are the same folks who simultaneously deny that sin impacts one’s salvation (especially their own!) while claiming that the radically sinful life of another is an indication that he or she is not saved. Good luck making sense of that…
The problem with the “The flesh causes me to sin” line of reasoning is that it denies the capability of God’s grace to overcome temptation and sin during this life. They are literally concluding that it is impossible to not sin. IMHO this directly contradicts Paul’s 1st Letter to the Corinthians 10:13 “No trial has come to you except what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength, but with the trial he will provide a way out so that you may be able to bear it.” That way out is through His grace, but it requires a level of detachment from the world in order to allow it to have its greatest efficacy. When we fall to temptation it is not because we CAN"T NOT sin, or that we must sin, it is because we chose not to avail ourselves completely of Gods grace. I, unfortunately, know this all too well.

Absolutely. OSAS and the Catholic notion of sufficient grace are therefore irreconcilable.

Part of the difficulty Missylollipops is having in this thread is to square a circle. Since Calvin couldn’t do it, despite his mightiest effort and brilliant mind, it likely can’t be done.

One must instead tread quickly past the subject.

 

[rpp]

People who convert to judaism are called proselytes. They are not true Jews.
To Be a true Jew you have to be of the bloodline of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
If you are of this bloodline, you are a Jew from birth. The circumcision is only a sign of the covenant wih God

By your rather unique definition, then King David is not a true Jew. His grandmother was Ruth, a Moabite. Since Jesus is in the bloodline of David, that would mean that Jesus is also not a Jew.

However, your point, inaccurate as it is, does not address the issue of infant circumcision. Please address the point I made regarding circumcision prefiguring baptism.