How do I know if I'm born again?

[mgrfin]

No, but I am concerned that some have added to this gospel by beleiving that we must also do certain things to gain salvation. I have this concern for people in general and am not entirely clear on what the Catholic Church teaches. It is a human problem that I beleive is insulting to God by proclaiming that his sacrifice is not sufficent for all of our sins therefore diminishing his work on the cross. I beleive that out of faith and because we beleive in God we will do what he commands out of a response to his love. To me this is an evidence of our faith “Faith without works is dead”. If this is what the Catholic Church teaches than we are in agreement. We all want to please and follow the commands of our master whomever or whatever that may be, sadly for some it is not Christ. I do not in any way sit in judgement of any persons heart and was just responding to the question. If you beleive the gospel, then praise God! we our brothers & sisters in Christ. It is my understanding that throughout the scriptures men & woman are saved despite thier religous attempts to somehow bring God into debt with them, but are saved because they beleive and out of a response to his love follow him. If my thinking is flawed, correct me! I am not above reproach. I only try to test all things and try to hold onto what is good.

I do sometimes wonder if the Catholic Church sits in judgement of me because I do not place my faith in the Catholic Church but in Christ alone. I have not personally researched this matter but have heard it 2nd hand through radio and other sources. Please correct me if this is not true.

In Christ,

Byoby

There is a long-standing confusion here between faith and good works.

It goes back at least as far as Martin Luther who claimed that he discovered that a man was justified through faith (only). The Church never taught that we get ourselves to heaven (justification) by good works.

The first canon of the Council of Trent concerning Justification points this out:
“If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law; without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema”.

It is amazing to read the commentaries of Luther on St. Paul how he consistently accuses the Church of teaching salvation through good works. I wonder if he was sleeping his way through the Seminary, or that he actually was taught the Catholicism of the early Fathers, and the Doctors of the Church whom he equated to the devil.

The Church never taught salvation through good works, but salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, cooperation with grace for the salvation of one’s soul.

But faith only is not enough. Trent: “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema” (Canon 9)

So faith and good works are necessary.
peace

 

[byoby]

This is Catholic Teaching. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any should boast. Yet, saving faith expresses itself in obedience and performance of the good works which God has created for us before the beginning of time, that we should walk in them. The Catholic Church judges no one, but leaves the salvation of every soul to God.

However, there is no separation between Christ and His Church, so rejecting the Catholic Church is rejecting Christ, to greater or lesser extent.

I understand that there is no seperation between Christ and His Church, but how do you make the jump from Church to Catholic Church? If I believe and keep the commands of Christ as presented in his word the Bible, am I Catholic? Probably not by what I have gathered so far. Is it fair then for me to assume that there are other things I must do to become a Christian other than the Gospel presented in the word of God? Do Catholics believe this Gospel to be insufficent or that the Gospel leads to Catholocism because if so I totally missed it. I understand that the word Catholic means universal and I certainly believe that the Church is universal. What else must I believe?

 

[misslollipops]

I understand that there is no seperation between Christ and His Church, but how do you make the jump from Church to Catholic Church? If I believe and keep the commands of Christ as presented in his word the Bible, am I Catholic?

Catholic means universal church of which you are a member.
To be Roman Catholic is another story. You have to follow the pope and such.

St Ignatius said ‘Wherever Jesus is, there is the catholic church.’
Jesus said 'wherever two or more are gathered in my name, I am there in their midst.
So we are all pretty much in the catholic(universal) church.
There was a thread about this a few weeks ago.

 

[jmcrae]

I understand that there is no seperation between Christ and His Church, but how do you make the jump from Church to Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church is the one that Christ started, in 33 AD. He appointed Peter as its first Pope (chief shepherd) in John 21:15-19.

The rest of them didn’t get started until the 1500s AD or so, and even later - they were started by various different men who had innovative ideas on how the Church should be run. They got excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and then started up their own churches.

If I believe and keep the commands of Christ as presented in his word the Bible, am I Catholic?

It’s definitely a good first step.

Probably not by what I have gathered so far. Is it fair then for me to assume that there are other things I must do to become a Christian other than the Gospel presented in the word of God?

Yes, we have to participate in the life of the Church, including the Sacraments, as well as the mission of the Church to accurately spread the Gospel. (This, by the way, is also part of the Gospel, since the New Testament records that we must confess our sins to the Apostles and the presbyters whom they have appointed, and we must receive Holy Communion, and we must be baptized, etc.)

Do Catholics believe this Gospel to be insufficent or that the Gospel leads to Catholocism because if so I totally missed it.

The Gospel actually proceeds out of Catholicism, which is its messenger to the world - the first disciples became Catholics at Pentecost, and started to write the Gospels about 20 or 30 years later.

I understand that the word Catholic means universal and I certainly believe that the Church is universal. What else must I believe?

Everything. We are not a “pick and choose” kind of people.

 

[mgrfin]

Catholic means universal church of which you are a member.
To be Roman Catholic is another story. You have to follow the pope and such.

St Ignatius said ‘Wherever Jesus is, there is the catholic church.’
Jesus said 'wherever two or more are gathered in my name, I am there in their midst.
So we are all pretty much in the catholic(universal) church.
There was a thread about this a few weeks ago.

Well, not exactly.

The Creed: I believe…in one holy, catholic and apostolic church, meaning the Catholic Church, not any old grouping of people who call themselves Christian, or who are in groups of two or three.

We are NOT all pretty much in the catholic church.

To be a member of the mystical body of Christ, you have to be baptised, and believe and be part of the (Roman) Catholic Church, which is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church is called the Mystical Body of Christ because its members are united by supernatural bonds with one another and with Christ, their Head, thus resembling the members and head of the living human body.

The one true Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church. We say, outside this Church there is no salvation, meaning that those who through their own grave fault do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church or, knowing it, refuse to join it, cannot be saved.

John 15, 4-7
John 17, 20-23
Ephesians 1:22-23
Colossians 1:18
1 Cor. 12:27

peace

 

[fellowChristian]

Quakers
Who founded it?
George Fox in 1649
What was he before that?
Presbyterian
Who founded it?
John Knox in 1560
What was he before that?
Calvinist
Who founded it?
John Calvin in 1555
What was he before that?
Catholic
Who founded it?
Jesus​

Amish
Who founded it?
Jacob Amman in 1693
What was he before that?
Mennonite
Who founded that?
Menno Simons in 1525
What was he before that?
Anabaptist
Who founded that?
Thomas Munzer and Nicholas Storch in 1521
What were they before that?
Catholic
Who founded it?
Jesus​

Pentecostal
Who founded it?
Charles Fox Parham in 1901
What was he before?
Methodist
Who founded it?
James and Charles Wesley in 1744
What were they?
Church of England
Who started it?
King Henry the VIII in 1534
What was he before?
Catholic
Who founded it?
Jesus​

Lutheran Church
Who started it?
Martin Luther in 1517.
What was he before?
Catholic
Who is its founder?
Jesus​

Trace them all. They all go back to the Catholic Church. Or if you want to call it The “Roman” Catholic Church. They are the same church. Only it was the people above who “protested” against her that called her that. And that was after 1517!
If you say that it was not the Catholic Church that Jesus founded. Then which church is it?
Are you saying Jesus did not leave us a church? That the gates of Hell overcame His church? That He is no longer with His church? That the Holy Spirit is not guiding His church?

All the above started after 1517ad. and before that there was only one church. If you do not believe that St. Peter was the 1st. Head Bishop/Pope of the Catholic Church, then fine what about the 2nd. pope? Linus mentioned in 2 Tim 4:21? No? Fine. How about the 3rd pope? No? The 4th. pope? St. Clement I (88-97)
We still have his writtings. Look at the list of popes. The Catholic Church was on her 27th pope when Constantine I the Great was born! (February 27th 280 ad)
She was on her 218th pope when the Protestant movement began!
Our sins can keep us from the truth.And so does the devil.

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

 

[Gamera]

Is it fair then for me to assume that there are other things I must do to become a Christian other than the Gospel presented in the word of God? Do Catholics believe this Gospel to be insufficent or that the Gospel leads to Catholocism because if so I totally missed it. I understand that the word Catholic means universal and I certainly believe that the Church is universal. What else must I believe?

The Gospel is one and the same as the Catholic faith. However much one accepts in common with the Catholic faith, that’s how much of the Gospel they accept. However much one rejects of the Catholic faith, that’s how much they reject of the Gospel. The Gospel is the Catholic faith.

Protestantism accepts much of the Gospel but has added, and perhaps more importantly, subtracted bits and pieces. Protestantism has added to the Gospel some man-made traditions (the “five solas” of the Reformers) and subtracted parts of the Gospel (the seven sacraments, Apostolic Tradition, etc).

 

[Teflon93]

I am starting to realize that Catholic Christians, although using the same words as Non-Catholic Christians sometimes have different meanings for the same word.

This may be the source of some of our misunderstandings.

There is certainly a lot of this differing definition stuff at the root of our differences.

Fortunately, any Protestant can consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which has a handy glossary.

We Catholics have no such luxuries when trying to understand Protestant definitions of terms, since a) they’re usually not written down and b) so few Protestants subscribe to any single definition beyond those where they already agree with the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

I understand that there is no seperation between Christ and His Church, but how do you make the jump from Church to Catholic Church?

There is only One Church, byoby. Jesus did not come to build “churches”. He build “my church” (one). Therefore all who are members of Christ are members of the one church.

If I believe and keep the commands of Christ as presented in his word the Bible, am I Catholic?

Yes an no. You are partially and imperfectly connected to the one Body of Christ. You have received part of the teachings, though your understanding and practice is incomplete, if you have been validly baptized, then you are part of the Church.

Probably not by what I have gathered so far. Is it fair then for me to assume that there are other things I must do to become a Christian other than the Gospel presented in the word of God?

There is more to the faith that Jesus taught than what can be found in the Bible, yes.

Do Catholics believe this Gospel to be insufficent or that the Gospel leads to Catholocism because if so I totally missed it.

Catholics believe that only God judges the heart of man, and that it is not for us to say who is saved and who is not, nor is it appropriate to make presumptions about even ourselves. Yes, we believe that believing the gospel will lead one to Catholicism, because this is the fullest expression of the faith that Jesus taught.

I understand that the word Catholic means universal and I certainly believe that the Church is universal. What else must I believe?

To appropriate the fullness of the Divine Revelation, you must believe all that the Catholic Church holds and teaches. Short of that, God will judge you in the light of what limited revelation you have, and how faithfully you adhered to what you understood was right for you to do.

Catholic means universal church of which you are a member.
To be Roman Catholic is another story. You have to follow the pope and such.

Thisi s a mischaraterization of what it means to be Catholic, and Roman Catholic. Roman is a Rite within the Catholic Church (there are 22) and one is not required to be Roman. It is misleading to say that persons that are in union with the Pope are “Roman”, as this is only one of many Rites. It is also misleading to say that Catholics “have to follow the Pope and such”. Catholics follow Jesus, who is the Head of the Body (His Church). Jesus left us an Apostolic Authority that is visible in the Pope. We are in union with the Pope because we are in union with the Head of the Church He built.

St Ignatius said ‘Wherever Jesus is, there is the catholic church.’
Jesus said 'wherever two or more are gathered in my name, I am there in their midst.
So we are all pretty much in the catholic(universal) church.
There was a thread about this a few weeks ago.

Yes, and at the time it was made clear that miss was taking this quote out of context, and trying to use it to justify rebellion against the Church Jesus founded. If one studies the context of the quote, it is clear that unity with the authority that Christ appointed is a requirement be be catholic.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I assumed I was talking with people mature in their faith, therefore I did not feel compelled to make this qualification of one of the most fundamental truths of the Christian faith. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are indeed One God. I am starting to realize that Catholic Christians, although using the same words as Non-Catholic Christians sometimes have different meanings for the same word.

This may be the source of some of our misunderstandings.

I think you are wise to so quickly pick up that sometimes people talk past each other because they don’t always have the same definition or understand the nuances of perspective or context. However, you were too quick to assert that it is a function that this person’s faith is not “mature.” After a while here on CAF, you will find (much to your chagrin) that often times extreme fundamentalists will use the “Christ alone” phrase in a way that it is a diminishment and sometimes even a degradation of the role of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Correctly often and an overreaction sometimes, people are quick to defend the Trinity.

On behalf of everyone I apologize that you got the wrong impression from the post of Hail Mary. With that cleared up, you might want to go back and read her post again to glean the point she was trying to make- Christ and the Church are one just as a man and wife become one.

 

[misslollipops]

#1000
This thread will be officially closed. Thanks to all who contributed!

 

[savedsinner]

#1000
This thread will be officially closed. Thanks to all who contributed!

Or does it close at #1001

 

[guanophore]

Well, not exactly.

The Creed: I believe…in one holy, catholic and apostolic church, meaning the Catholic Church, not any old grouping of people who call themselves Christian, or who are in groups of two or three.

We are NOT all pretty much in the catholic church.

To be a member of the mystical body of Christ, you have to be baptised, and believe and be part of the (Roman) Catholic Church, which is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ.

This is a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church teaches. No where is it required to participate in the Roman Rite in order to be Catholic. It also denies that the Catholic Church recognizes that validity of the Eastern Orthodox Holy Orders and Sacraments.

The one true Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church. We say, outside this Church there is no salvation, meaning that those who through their own grave fault do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church or, knowing it, refuse to join it, cannot be saved.

I think this is not wel formed either. The Catholic Church teaches that outside the Church there is no salvation because she believes that Christ only formed One Church, therefore, all who are saved are part of that one Church. It does not make any sense to say that “those who through their own grave fault do not know”. If it is a grave fault, then it is willful and knowledgeable rejection of Christ and HIs Church. This is distinguished from those who “do not know” (invincible ignorance) that the Catholic Church is that founded by Christ. The vast majority of protestants today are just ignorant. They do not know the history of the faith they claim to espouse,a nd have be taught grievous errors about the Catholic faith. They don’t know any better, and there fore, it cannot be considered a “grave fault” on their part. After having their errors corrected, if they still choose to reject Christ’s Church, that is another matter.

 

[guanophore]

Trace them all. They all go back to the Catholic Church. Or if you want to call it The “Roman” Catholic Church.

It is disrespectful to equate the Catholic Church with the Roman Rite. It shows a lack of awareness of the other 22 Rites in the Catholic Church that are every bit in union with the Pope as the Roman. Granted, it may be the largest Rite, and most popular here in the West, but I strongly urge those of “Roman” persuasion to have more charity for your brethren.

If you say that it was not the Catholic Church that Jesus founded. Then which church is it?

The Orthodox have a valid claim as well.

All the above started after 1517ad. and before that there was only one church.

It would behoove you to look into the schism of 1054

Our sins can keep us from the truth.And so does the devil.

Let the one who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall.

 

[guanophore]

#1000
This thread will be officially closed. Thanks to all who contributed!

Who left, and made you moderator?

It will close when the mods get to it.

 

[Tracyms1974]

All I wanted to say was this: You don’t have to be Catholic to be Christian. You can be of any of the Protestant religions and be a Christian. That’s all well and good. But to be a Catholic requires more of a person, generally speaking. That’s why there is this divide now. There is this constant dispute over all this “extra stuff” that Catholics see as necessary and Protestants see as unreasonable, impossible, or whatever reason they want to give for the beliefs being invavlid. (Birth control is a good example of this.) It’s unfortunate that it is this way, but God loves the Prots just as much as He loves us, the Catholics. Maybe there will be a resolution one day. (snicker, snicker – Doomsday!)

Tracy

 

[mgrfin]

Quakers
Who founded it?
George Fox in 1649
What was he before that?
Presbyterian
Who founded it?
John Knox in 1560
What was he before that?
Calvinist
Who founded it?
John Calvin in 1555
What was he before that?
Catholic
Who founded it?
Jesus​

Amish
Who founded it?
Jacob Amman in 1693
What was he before that?
Mennonite
Who founded that?
Menno Simons in 1525
What was he before that?
Anabaptist
Who founded that?
Thomas Munzer and Nicholas Storch in 1521
What were they before that?
Catholic
Who founded it?
Jesus​

Pentecostal
Who founded it?
Charles Fox Parham in 1901
What was he before?
Methodist
Who founded it?
James and Charles Wesley in 1744
What were they?
Church of England
Who started it?
King Henry the VIII in 1534
What was he before?
Catholic
Who founded it?
Jesus​

Lutheran Church
Who started it?
Martin Luther in 1517.
What was he before?
Catholic
Who is its founder?
Jesus​

Trace them all. They all go back to the Catholic Church. Or if you want to call it The “Roman” Catholic Church. They are the same church. Only it was the people above who “protested” against her that called her that. And that was after 1517!
If you say that it was not the Catholic Church that Jesus founded. Then which church is it?
Are you saying Jesus did not leave us a church? That the gates of Hell overcame His church? That He is no longer with His church? That the Holy Spirit is not guiding His church?

All the above started after 1517ad. and before that there was only one church. If you do not believe that St. Peter was the 1st. Head Bishop/Pope of the Catholic Church, then fine what about the 2nd. pope? Linus mentioned in 2 Tim 4:21? No? Fine. How about the 3rd pope? No? The 4th. pope? St. Clement I (88-97)
We still have his writtings. Look at the list of popes. The Catholic Church was on her 27th pope when Constantine I the Great was born! (February 27th 280 ad)
She was on her 218th pope when the Protestant movement began!
Our sins can keep us from the truth.And so does the devil.

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Good post. I’m going to make copies and hand it out to those Baptists, Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses who come knocking on my door.

peace

 

[Teflon93]

Who left, and made you moderator?

It will close when the mods get to it.

I think Misslollipops was simply referring to the fact that there is a 1000 post limit.

She may have thought it automatically closed; I thought that myself.

 

[Teflon93]

Good post. I’m going to make copies and hand it out to those Baptists, Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses who come knocking on my door.

peace

History is useful, isn’t it?

Much of the distortions of the Catholic faith come from the Reformers’ need to distort history to justify their schisms and replace millennia old papal authority through apostolic succession with their own.

 

[rpp]

I guess the thread does not automatically lock at 1,000. I guess the moderators must have to do it manually.

But this has been a very interesting thread. And, generally, most people were fairly polite, if obstinate.