How do I overcome the idea that God doesn't care?

[Mummsie]

While most people think Revelations is frightening, I think Matthew 22:11-13 (the parable of the wedding banquet) along side Matthew 25:14-30 (the parable of the talents) are truly terrifying for me. I can truly imagine people who can feel love and happiness, have friends, etc, going to heaven because I “helped” them by offering up my suffering while I go to hell. They’ll get the best of both worlds.

I know someone will say feelings and the other things aren’t important. It’s sort of like seeing someone enjoying a large meal while I’m on the floor starving. Then, after they’re done, they tell me I wouldn’t have liked or needed it anyway.

There has been a lot of good advice given so far. The only thing I can offer to those going thru “dark times” is this: Have you asked God what he wants you to do? I have found so much peace and felt God’s love by just saying: Show me your way. Seldom does he lead me to the table with a Large Meal…no matter how hungry I am. Perhaps His way is to help you learn to fast:shrug: Or it’s time to lose a few pounds Or he wants to remind me to “feed his sheep” Seldom is it something of this world he is just dying to give me. Each pain or struggle is an opportunity to learn something and grow closer to God. Instead of focusing on what you don’t have or what someone else has, try focusing on what God wants. He’s the Expert.

God Bless each of You.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

All I can tell you is this: If God indeed loves me, I’m not feeling it.

 

[BobCatholic]

While most people think Revelations is frightening, I think Matthew 22:11-13 (the parable of the wedding banquet) along side Matthew 25:14-30 (the parable of the talents) are truly terrifying for me. I can truly imagine people who can feel love and happiness, have friends, etc, going to heaven because I “helped” them by offering up my suffering while I go to hell. They’ll get the best of both worlds.

What about Matthew 7:22"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

People who did things in Jesus’ name…good things…yet he does not know them…then how does anyone know they know Jesus? There’s no way.

 

[anytimequilter]

There has been a lot of good advice given so far. The only thing I can offer to those going thru “dark times” is this: Have you asked God what he wants you to do? I have found so much peace and felt God’s love by just saying: Show me your way. Seldom does he lead me to the table with a Large Meal…no matter how hungry I am.

I didn’t start this thread, but some parts of it do resonate with me. I often here this type of idea from people… you have to find God’s will not your own. You need to pray and ask God to show you what you should do.

With all due respect, would I be posting on a Catholic discussion board if I wasn’t praying already? Or if I wasn’t already trying and willing to do God’s will?

I remember clearly the first time I stated to say “not my will but your will be done” I was walking through a door at work and without even realizing I felt that way - - something inside me was saying it. That was 15 years ago… and I feel more lost now than ever.

I suppose I am at the point, where I have been asking that and just don’t understand why God hasn’t answered me… or helped me to understand. (God made me, so he knows that I am a slow learner and need extra help)

That quietness and no response and feeling abandoned and on your own is what causes the confusion and even frustration… I completely understand why people give up. I also fear for myself because I am only human and realize that I am not above falling away…

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

All I can tell you is this: If God indeed loves me, I’m not feeling it.

Seems like Job had the same problem. You’d think Job’s life was disposable, but then when God got done working him over he gave him a lot of stuff.

I’ve actually seen a pretty interesting parody of the Job story, put out by atheists. It gave a perspective on the whole thing that I was actually empathetic to the first time I heard the story. God the Father doesn’t make any sense to me, so I’ve quit trying to “please Him” and just do what He said for us to do from the voice in the cloud, to “listen to” His Son.

In John 14:5-13, Jesus was also evasive when He was asked to try to explain the Father in human terms. Seems like He pretty much told them to quit worrying about trying to figure out the Father – just do what Jesus says, and that’s the best thing to do. Everything else is a mystery that I really can’t explain but you’ll just have to live as I say and hopefully you will find out and be born of the spirit, and enter the kingdom – in which case the feeling of abandonment from God subsides IMO.

John 14:5-13
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know** my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.**

 

[Methos]

What about Matthew 7:22"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

People who did things in Jesus’ name…good things…yet he does not know them…then how does anyone know they know Jesus? There’s no way.

He can use people for His purpose. Just look at Balaam and Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Persian Empire. Free will, some people may respond. He’ll “persuade” you. Look at St. Paul, he was blinded. Being able to regain that sight, and possibly keep it, is a pretty good motivator.

 

[BobCatholic]

He can use people for His purpose. Just look at Balaam and Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Persian Empire. Free will, some people may respond. He’ll “persuade” you. Look at St. Paul, he was blinded. Being able to regain that sight, and possibly keep it, is a pretty good motivator.

But you haven’t answered my question.

I didn’t ask if someone can be used by God and then later rejected. The Bible is replete with examples!

I asked “how does anyone know they know Jesus? There’s no way.”

 

[Latias]

All I can tell you is this: If God indeed loves me, I’m not feeling it.

I read some of your posts here, and since I cannot personally relate to your adversity or your personality, I cannot offer any sincere words of consolation or encourage. Although an exception may be that you are still alive and perhaps God will give you the grace to return to Him as a prodigal son/daughter during the hour of your death even you are are not able to comprehend or perceive it now. This is not presumption but rather you implicitly not allowing whatever smouldering fire of your faith and hope that remains to never to be completely extinguished. There is some hope that you may eventually achieve the beatific vision even though you cannot offer a sincere testimony of a peace and joy, or be a beacon of holiness and rectitude to everyone. Have you personally excluded that possibility or you do adamantly believe that you are truly beyond redemption or neglected by God? It also makes me wonder why you just don’t become an atheist. If I were truly secular (having no attachment to religion), I would recommend you to abandon a belief in the God and the afterlife since it would personally benefit you on this earth (as it seems religious doctrine is a source of immense psychological disquietude even though most people do benefit from religion). Even though such advice may grant you some succor in this life, it is ultimately asking you to embrace despair by denying heaven and His grace, despite also defenestrating the dyspepsia of eternal damnation too. Ironically, if living a religious life is a struggle, perhaps this is your struggle (even as you admit your despair and detrimentally affect the faith of others around you) with a liberating epiphany that punctuates this as you die.

Aside from that last paragraph, my interest in your spiritual plight is not purely derived from love for you, that is a sincere interest in the salvation of your soul, but due to my similar predicament, I do sympathize with you. Rather, my interest is to understand my own lukewarmess. Have you considered the possibility that your beliefs are due your innate pessimistic nature, or that you have been exposed to a particular variant of Catholicism (as Catholicism is plastic enough that it can accommodate a multiplicity of theological perspectives) that emphasizes sin or punishment. In other words, is your despair a psychological or sociological phenomenon?

I have felt this way for as long as I remember. I truly believe that God has singled me out and is deliberately causing me to suffer. I hate my life and everything about it. I have all but given up on Heaven and have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I’m going to Hell when I die.

No one has ever been able to convince me otherwise.

That is a very odd theological belief, particularly because you believe that “God” has singled you out (as you are a unique individual that God has chosen for punishment). You seem to believe in God’s selective love (or “limited atonement” in Calvinist terms) since God does express his outward favor (through material prosperity) and grace to others, but has not privileged this to you. You seem to believe that God is insouciant to the notion that you and others who have not been chosen by Him will suffer eternal damnation. Some historians of philosophy suggested that David Hume’s Calvinist upbringing and milieu have made him religiously skeptical.

Perhaps something that would be therapeutic to you that is not a suggestion to embrace atheism is to accept that “**** happens” and God does not orchestrate it. It requires you to take a less teleological view on life (as many Christians do ascribe the personal events of their lives to God’s will) and attribute most things, both tragedy and triumph, to chance and necessity. See the universe and society as more indifferent and not God’s plan to punish you, although this would do little to assuage your pessimism. Your failures, psychological frailty, and adversities do not have any relation to your spiritual merit. **** does not equal damnation!

Personal question: do you still go to Mass?

 

[Methos]

But you haven’t answered my question.

I didn’t ask if someone can be used by God and then later rejected. The Bible is replete with examples!

I asked “how does anyone know they know Jesus? There’s no way.”

I haven’t the faintest idea either. People with far more time and resources than you and I, such as Thomas Merton in his little hermitage, apparently didn’t know either. I’m sure someone will or has chimed in, I might have missed it, that we can through the Church and the Bible, etc. But, never through talking with Him. It’s akin to a father raising a child through correspondence and then getting mad that the child didn’t understand the message.

 

[anytimequilter]

I asked “how does anyone know they know Jesus? There’s no way.”

I can’t say that I know the answer you are looking for… but here is some food for thought. How do you know that you really know anyone? Often I hear people say they are surprised by what someone said or did and comment “you think you know someone”. I think as in any human relationship the deeper the relationship the more aware you become of that person

Personal question: do you still go to Mass?

While I realize why this question is asked… this one really bothers me. When I express struggles I have been asked this… and I have been going to mass every Sunday and even the adoration chapel every week…these actions do not solve all problems. I have often wondered if they cause me more problems (i.e. the devil is after me more because he doesn’t want me to go)

 

[Latias]

I can’t say that I know the answer you are looking for… but here is some food for thought. How do you know that you really know anyone? Often I hear people say they are surprised by what someone said or did and comment “you think you know someone”. I think as in any human relationship the deeper the relationship the more aware you become of that person

While I realize why this question is asked… this one really bothers me. When I express struggles I have been asked this… and I have been going to mass every Sunday and even the adoration chapel every week…these actions do not solve all problems. I have often wondered if they cause me more problems (i.e. the devil is after me more because he doesn’t want me to go)

Lamentably, I didn’t go to Mass during Lent except on Ash Wednesday (and that includes Good Friday, lol).

I only asked Sheep because I wanted to confirm my supposition that a person who acknowledges that he is going to hell is likely not to attend any religious services.

 

[BobCatholic]

It’s akin to a father raising a child through correspondence and then getting mad that the child didn’t understand the message.

More like an absentee parent raising their kid by putting the kid in a daycare, with written and oral instructions.

I can’t say that I know the answer you are looking for… but here is some food for thought. How do you know that you really know anyone? Often I hear people say they are surprised by what someone said or did and comment “you think you know someone”. I think as in any human relationship the deeper the relationship the more aware you become of that person

Well, one way to know someone is when the communicate with you. Prayer to me, is a monologue. A one way street where I’m the only one doing the talking. God gives me the silent treatment.

Another way is when one seeks one out. Yes, God did seek us out by becoming one of us in Christ, but that was 2,000 years ago. He seeks us out by becoming the Eucharist. But he sits there like a decoration and doesn’t talk.

So that means only one thing. At the best, I only have a corporate relationship with Christ, not a personal one. But is that enough? Not for me. Is it enough for salvation?
Who cares if I don’t know him personally? I’ll have to spend all eternity for him and it will be like meeting a stranger. And how am I supposed to evangelize if I don’t even have a personal relationship?

 

[anytimequilter]

Well, one way to know someone is when the communicate with you. Prayer to me, is a monologue. A one way street where I’m the only one doing the talking. God gives me the silent treatment.

Another way is when one seeks one out. Yes, God did seek us out by becoming one of us in Christ, but that was 2,000 years ago. He seeks us out by becoming the Eucharist. But he sits there like a decoration and doesn’t talk.

I understand completely. Often I ask God to tell me what to do, but its still all me I often hear people say they have a “personal relationship” with Jesus Christ…and I have no idea what that means. I don’t expect that I ever will Most likely its an abstract/spiritual thing that I am trying to fit into human understanding

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I understand completely. Often I ask God to tell me what to do, but its still all me I often hear people say they have a “personal relationship” with Jesus Christ…and I have no idea what that means. I don’t expect that I ever will Most likely its an abstract/spiritual thing that I am trying to fit into human understanding

Or maybe it’s a human emotional experience that they are trying to pass off as something more than it is.

He did call us “friends” so it is certainly a “good thing” but so often it just sounds like words from people who know “all the right things to say”.

 

[nocoastlayman]

All I can tell you is this: If God indeed loves me, I’m not feeling it.

I know this is going to sound cruel but love is not about feelings. I remember someone once told me a story where a man who was doubting God had a dream. In this dream he saw an angel and was so overjoyed. The man said “It must be awesome to feel God’s love all the time” to which the angel said “feel? I don’t have a body, i’m just spirit” So the Angels know God loves them other than through feelings. Love isn’t feelings but in a sense is a choice. For example, a lot of teenagers I work with feel their parents and teachers don’t love them because they don’t like being told what to do. They certainly don’t FEEL loved, but they are loved. Love is more of a choice. It isn’t a physical action.

 

[agapewolf]

Example: you had an uneventful drive home. Little did you know that a drunk driver who was going to crash into you (causing great pain and suffering to you), God arranged him to get a flat tire so he took a taxi home. But you don’t know this. You’ll never know it.

I have a hard time with this logic-- what about when someone IS hit by a drunk driver. Why didn’t God make arrangements for that person?

 

[Latias]

I have a hard time with this logic-- what about when someone IS hit by a drunk driver. Why didn’t God make arrangements for that person?

I do not think you could find a coherent and satisfactory response. At best, one could say that God’s will is ineffably incomprehensible and “good”, but that is rather incongruous with our limited perspective on earth and absurd with one’s basic understanding of what is “good”. It would seem that one would have to relinquish any natural concept of “good” and redefine it as what God considers as good.

As I stated before:

Perhaps something that would be therapeutic to you that is not a suggestion to embrace atheism is to accept that “**** happens” and God does not orchestrate it. It requires you to take a less teleological view on life (as many Christians do ascribe the personal events of their lives to God’s will) and attribute most things, both tragedy and triumph, to chance and necessity. See the universe and society as more indifferent and not God’s plan to punish you, although this would do little to assuage your pessimism. Your failures, psychological frailty, and adversities do not have any relation to your spiritual merit. **** does not equal damnation!

 

[BobCatholic]

I have a hard time with this logic-- what about when someone IS hit by a drunk driver. Why didn’t God make arrangements for that person?

With 99.9% of people getting home without getting hit by drunk drivers, I guess that’s not good enough.

Sometimes the devil does win a skirmish, but he will not win the war.

 

[Latias]

With 99.9% of people getting home without getting hit by drunk drivers, I guess that’s not good enough.

Sometimes the devil does win a skirmish, but he will not win the war.

So you think that the fact that people do not frequently get hit by drunk drivers is some sort of miracle? Is it really a miracle that going to the store is unlike a B-17 sortee deep into in Germany against Me bf-109, Fw-190s, and Me-262s and anti-aircraft fire. Is it a miracle that most people on the road are competent enough to drive and avoiding injuring themselves, while considerate not to drive while intoxicated (as opposed to Luftwaffe pilots trying to shoot you down).

 

[BobCatholic]

So you think that the fact that people do not frequently get hit by drunk drivers is some sort of miracle?

There are so many incidents where people have dodged proverbial bullets - but the problem is they don’t know they dodged a proverbial bullet! So they think nothing happened.

I used a drunk driver as one of the threats out there. There are countless things we are protected from. What about the person who woke up to a flat tire on their car? Turns out that the tire could have popped on the highway at high speed with disastrous results, the previous day, but the tire somehow stayed intact until he got home. But the price paid is he’s late for work waiting for AAA.

God does protect us. But the overwhelming vast majority of the time, we don’t know he is doing this!

I get it. Nothing happened to you today. So you concluded nothing really happened.

But you have no idea what is going on in the battlefield out there. And you should be grateful.

The biggest miracles are hidden.