How do I prove to Muslims that the Bible canon is not corrupted?

[studentlove]

Like how do you prove that the books that were chosen were the correct ones as opposed to those that weren’t. Also what is the earliest living copy of scripture available today to prove to them that the Bible has not been changed. Also what was the Bible Arab Christians of Saudi Arabia were using during Mohammad’s life? What are some good books to read? I want to learn more about my faith specifically the formation of the bible canon and the early Christian groups along with the first heretical Christian sects.

 

[katy]

Check out Robert Spencer’s writings. He has extensive experience and research.

 

[TheWhoFreak]

studentlove,

Are you asking how we know that we have all the right books in the Bible (Canon of Scripture) or are you asking how we know that the Bible is inspired? As for your other questions, while I’m not sure what Bible the Arab Christians would have been using, my guess is that it would’ve been the Vulgate. The Vulgate was a Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the 4th century. The Vulgate grew in popularity after it was published, and it eventually became the official Bible of the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent. If you want some good stuff to read about the Bible, check out Introduction to the BIble (1932) by Fr. John Laux, M.A. Don’t let the date of publication fool you, the book is NOT outdated (and unlike many Bible books nowadays, actually adheres to Church teaching concerning the Bible). If you want to learn more about the early Church, I would recommend History of the Church by Eusebius. Eusebius was a bishop in the 4th century. And Catholic Answers has a great tract on the major heresies here: catholic.com/tracts/the-great-heresies

Hope this helps!

 

[studentlove]

I’m asking the first question how do we know that we have the right books? As opposed to the ones that were once considered inspired but then rejected from the Bible canon? Also how do you deem which early Christian groups were heretical and which once were Catholic teaching?

 

[TheWhoFreak]

I’m asking the first question how do we know that we have the right books? As opposed to the ones that were once considered inspired but then rejected from the Bible canon? Also how do you deem which early Christian groups were heretical and which once were Catholic teaching?

How do we know we have the right books? The answer is pretty straightforward: The Catholic Church has infallibly defined the canon of Scripture.

As for the heretics, here are a couple ways to know whether an early group was heretical or not:

1. Compare the teachings of the group to the teachings of the Church. If they aren’t compatible with the Church’s teaching, the group is probably heretical.
2. Heresy was not something that was taken lightly. Many of the Early Church Fathers wrote against heretics in the Church, like St. Irenaeus in Against Heresies or St. Augustine in The Correction of the Donatists. If the Church Fathers wrote against a particular group, chances are that it was heretical.

 

[studentlove]

What’s the oldest living book or letter of the new testament? I just want something to prove to Muslims that the oldest written document of Christianity pointed to Christ as God.

 

[CMatt25]

How do we know we have the right books? The answer is pretty straightforward: The Catholic Church has infallibly defined the canon of Scripture.

As for the heretics, here are a couple ways to know whether an early group was heretical or not:

1. Compare the teachings of the group to the teachings of the Church. If they aren’t compatible with the Church’s teaching, the group is probably heretical.
2. Heresy was not something that was taken lightly. Many of the Early Church Fathers wrote against heretics in the Church, like St. Irenaeus in Against Heresies or St. Augustine in The Correction of the Donatists. If the Church Fathers wrote against a particular group, chances are that it was heretical.

It might be straightforward to someone having faith. But without someone having faith you can’t prove anything to them. If an atheist does not have faith in God, you can’t prove to them He exists. If a polytheist does not have faith in one God, you’re going to have a problem proving monotheism. If a Jew or Muslim or anyone else does not have faith in a Scripture, for instance the NT and faith that Christ died for our sins and rose from the tomb and ascended into heaven, you can’t prove it to them. If someone does not place at least enough faith in the Catholic Church, in Her interpretations of Scripture, in Her infallibilty, and place faith in the ECFs, it’s not going to be as straightforward to them as it is to someone who places faith there and therefore believes they know. St Paul said we walk by faith not by sight.

 

[studentlove]

Yes but our faith relies on truth correct? I need history to prove to me that Christians always believed in what we now believe.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes but our faith relies on truth correct? I need history to prove to me that Christians always believed in what we now believe.

It relies on what you believe to be truth and you need faith in the history as recorded and interpreted since you didn’t live in the times.

 

[KWR_1]

Like how do you prove that the books that were chosen were the correct ones as opposed to those that weren’t. Also what is the earliest living copy of scripture available today to prove to them that the Bible has not been changed. Also what was the Bible Arab Christians of Saudi Arabia were using during Mohammad’s life? What are some good books to read? I want to learn more about my faith specifically the formation of the bible canon and the early Christian groups along with the first heretical Christian sects.

When it comes to religion you can never prove anything since it all based on a persons belief. No one can prove Jesus rose from the grave and no one can prove Muhammud ascended into heaven from Jerusalem.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes but our faith relies on truth correct? I need history to prove to me that Christians always believed in what we now believe.

I would add to my previous post that you also must have faith those Christians didn’t get something wrong, didn’t stray at some point, and that Christians at some later point in history didn’t arrive at a better understanding about something. Bottom line is you can cut a loaf of bread in many ways. But however you slice it, you can’t remove the basic ingredient. In this case. Faith.

God bless you on your faith journey. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

When it comes to religion you can never prove anything since it all based on a persons belief. No one can prove Jesus rose from the grave and no one can prove Muhammud ascended into heaven from Jerusalem.

KWR, exactly. This is the truth.

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

The resurrection of Christ upon His Return was well documented and reported to Queen Victoria by Lord Palmerston, as well as being witnessed by Consul Generals from several countries, and Cambridge orientalist Edward G. Browne:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1b#Execution

No faith required when the accuracy of historical documentation has improved several fold since Lord Jesus’ first coming

God bless you all

Kam

 

[Augustine3]

What’s the oldest living book or letter of the new testament? I just want something to prove to Muslims that the oldest written document of Christianity pointed to Christ as God.

Check out this website of the earliest documents and manuscripts:

debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htm

Also, here are some writings of the early Church Fathers.

**St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans Address (c. 110 AD) **
“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in
the greatness of the Most High Father and in Jesus Christ, His only Son: to
the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God,
by the will of Him that has willed everything which is: to the Church also
which holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans … To
those who are united in flesh and in spirit by every commandment of His,
who are filled with the grace of God without wavering, and who are filtered
clear of every foreign stain, I wish an unalloyed joy in Jesus Christ, our
God.”

**St. Melito of Sardes, Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai 13 (c. 177 AD) **
“The activities of Christ after His Baptism, and especially His miracles,
gave indication and assurance to the world of the Deity hidden in His flesh.
Being God and likewise perfect man, He gave positive indications of His
two natures: of His Deity, by the miracles during the three years following
after His Baptism; of His humanity, in the thirty years which came before
His Baptism, during which, by reason of His condition according to the
flesh, he concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God
existing before the ages.”

St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies 3, 19, 1 (c. 180 AD)
“Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that He
is Himself in His own right God and Lord and Eternal King and Only-
begotten and Incarnate Word, proclaimed as such by all the Prophets and
by the Apostles and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have
attained to even a small portion of the truth. The Scriptures would not have
borne witness to these things concerning Him, if, like everyone else, He
were mere man. But that He had in Himself what no other ever had, that
pre-eminent generation by the Most High Father; and that He also
experienced that pre-eminent birth from a Virgin,––the divine Scriptures
testify to both in His regard.”

Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 1, 7, 1 (ante 200
AD)
“This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He
was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as
man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings
to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life
eternal. For, according to that inspired apostle of the Lord, the grace of God
which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us, that, denying
ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and
godly, in this present world; looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of
the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.”

Your brother in Christ,

 

[studentlove]

My faith is a mixture of history and belief. If you can prove to me with history that the earliest Christian writings had Jesus as God versus those sects that came afterwards and started to formulate their own ideas of Jesus as merely a prophet or a spirit then I can without excuse rely on the Catholic Church.

So my question again is how do you prove to a Muslim that the earliest Christians believed in God as we (Catholics) do now. All the councils did was declare what we believed originally they didn’t set up a new belief. Didn’t the disciples all believe in Jesus as God? Didn’t the Jewish leadership persecute Jesus and the Church because of that?

 

[SaintPatrick333]

I’m asking the first question how do we know that we have the right books? As opposed to the ones that were once considered inspired but then rejected from the Bible canon? Also how do you deem which early Christian groups were heretical and which once were Catholic teaching?

The Holy Spirit guided the men who wrote and compiled the Bible.

 

[studentlove]

I rely on history in particular apostolic succession a lot. This is the reason that I don’t trust Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or the various Protestant Churches. They don’t have a past that I can look to and say “yes, what they believe is exactly what the early Church believed”. In the same token I can’t trust Islam without doing some honest research at the past belief of it’s prophets. Islam claims Moses, Jesus etc were Muslim and that the early Jews and Christians were in fact Muslims. So then I have to look at history and see whether or not there were Christians in the early Church not after (heretical groups) that viewed Jesus as solely a prophet and denied his crucifixion. If I can show them the earliest writing during the time of the disciples then it would put the Qua ran’s claim to rest.

 

[studentlove]

How do we know we have the right books? The answer is pretty straightforward: The Catholic Church has infallibly defined the canon of Scripture.

As for the heretics, here are a couple ways to know whether an early group was heretical or not:

1. Compare the teachings of the group to the teachings of the Church. If they aren’t compatible with the Church’s teaching, the group is probably heretical.
2. Heresy was not something that was taken lightly. Many of the Early Church Fathers wrote against heretics in the Church, like St. Irenaeus in Against Heresies or St. Augustine in The Correction of the Donatists. If the Church Fathers wrote against a particular group, chances are that it was heretical.

I think I understand your point, correct me if I’m wrong. In the beginning of the Christian Church probably the Jerusalem Church all Christians believed in the same concept Jesus is God and Jesus died on the cross. Then some Christians started speaking heresies because they like the Muslims couldn’t comprehend how God could be man and God and die on the cross. As a result the Early Church Fathers redeclared our beliefs so that others wouldn’t follow those fallen Christian sects.

 

[studentlove]

The Holy Spirit guided the men who wrote and compiled the Bible.

Yes I agree whole heartily but first we must look at which books were first written correct? If those books claim Jesus as Lord then the Catholic Church with the Holy Spirits guidance choose the correct books. Some books were also considered inspired within some Christian communities but left out, these books the Church does not believe in their inspiration but they are good for history . And then there are some books which were written by heretics.

 

[Sneakypete]

I know where you are coming from. My wife has been engaged with Muslims on Facebook. They repeatedly claim that the Bible has been corrupted therefore the Koran was given to Mohammed to correct the errors in the Sacred Scriptures. They like to cite Jerimiah 8:8 as proof:

How can you say, “We are wise,for

we have the law of the LORD”?

See, that has been changed into falsehood

by the lying pen of the scribes!*

This verse chastises the scribes because the teachings and interpretations of the scribes ran counter to the word of the Lord. The Muslim use this verse as proof that the Word of the OT is corrupted because of the admission of the scribes.

As far as the NT goes, the Muslims claim that St. Paul is the author of Christianity and that he never saw Jesus. They even call the Apostles liars and that none of their writings actually were from Jesus. They called St. Peter a liar and a coward. You have a real challenge ahead of you my good friend.

One thing I suggest you do is to ask how do they know that the Bible is corrupted? Do they have the original text to prove it is different than what we have today? They also base their arguments on the different translations that we have today as proof that the bible has changed.

God bless your endeavor