How do I respond to this? (Sola Fide verses)

  • Thread starter Thread starter padre2007
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

padre2007

Guest
Hi, I am debating someone they used this to justify their beleif that only believing in Jesus Christ will be sufficient to go to heaven:

Romans 1:16-17, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the (AF)Jew first and also to (AG)the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.””

Romans 10:9-10, “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”

If I truly believe, I am declared righteous.
How can I respond to this?
 
It’s an ongoing debate, and not just with him, with several others, non-Christians altogether as well as Protestants. No one will accept that from me in that debate, it would make Catholicism look bad…

Edit: he further said this-

Even Jesus said that all that was required to inherit eternal life was to truly believe.

John 3:18, “Whoever believes in him (the Son of God) is not condemned.”

And since “all Scriptures… are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus,” I do not need to be a Catholic in order to be saved. I only need faith in the One and Only Son of God, who died for my sins on the Cross on Calvary, which has purchased all the grace necessary for my conversion.
 
Ask him what “belief” means. To Paul, it mean obedience. Read Romans and you’ll see that it’s much more than faith. Here’s just one example: Roman 16:26 - ***but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith. ***Catholics have long believed (oh, for about 1900+ years) that this obedience is crucial to our faith.
 
Again I reply: they do not really believe in Christ nor do they follow Scripture. If they did both, they would be in the Holy Catholic Church.
 
padre2007 said:
Hi, I am debating someone they used this to justify their beleif that only believing in Jesus Christ will be sufficient to go to heaven:

Romans 1:16-17, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the (AF)Jew first and also to (AG)the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.””
Click to expand...
The bible also says
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
They ALL know this verse very very well.

Ask them if Jesus is only a man.
When they say no, ask them why, since this verse only says Jesus is a man. They will answer that there are other verses in the bible that says Jesus is also God. Then ask them if they agree with the principle that we cannot take one isolated verse by itself, that we must take into account all the verses on a subject.

When they agree, point out that there are many other verses in which Jesus himself says we must obey God in order to enter into heaven.

For example, Jesus says, “if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments”, and so on and so on.
Thus, the Church teaches we must have both faith and obedience, (not works of the Mosaic law, such as circumcision, which is what St. Paul is refering to) in order to enter heaven.
So, since everything Jesus taught is the word of God, we also must obey Jesus in order to enter heaven.
St. Paul also agrees, in Romans Chapter 2
Romans 10:9-10, “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
Click to expand...
Same answer as above.
If I truly believe, I am declared righteous.
Click to expand...
Same answer as above.

This is one of the basic arguments Tim Staples, and ex-Protestant uses. In other words, Protestants tend to take an isolated verse and imply that is the whole teaching on a subject. When they are forced to agree to accept all the verses on a subject, as they must when you quote 1 Timothy 2:5, then you force them into a correct way of thinking. If they don’t accept all the verses, then they must accept that Jesus is only a man.
 
NotWorthy said:
Ask him what “belief” means. To Paul, it mean obedience. Read Romans and you’ll see that it’s much more than faith. Here’s just one example: Roman 16:26 - ***but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith. ***Catholics have long believed (oh, for about 1900+ years) that this obedience is crucial to our faith.
Click to expand...
Paul also preached the need “to prove one’s repentance by one’s deeds” (Acts 26:20).
 
dcdurel said:
This is one of the basic arguments Tim Staples, and ex-Protestant uses. In other words, **Protestants tend to take an isolated verse and imply that is the whole teaching on a subject. **When they are forced to agree to accept all the verses on a subject, as they must when you quote 1 Timothy 2:5, then you force them into a correct way of thinking. If they don’t accept all the verses, then they must accept that Jesus is only a man.
Click to expand...
I think its also a case of applying today’s definitions to words written 1900 years ago.
 
only believing in Jesus Christ will be sufficient to go to heaven
Click to expand...
Jesus Christ doesn’t think so:

Matthew 7:21-23
  • 21"(A)Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"(B)Many will say to Me on (C)that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

23"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; Depart from me, you who practise lawlessness.’*

James 2:24
  • 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.*
There’s more stuff in James you might want to have a look at.

Note: You should ask them what their definition of “belief” is. If they believe that “true” belief or a “saving faith” in Jesus Christ requires one to be obedient to the will of the Father and thus do good works, then they’re correct, but just use language differently from the way we do. You wouldn’t be lying if you said Catholics agreed - we do believe that a “saving faith” is faith plus works.

They could also believe that good works are the result of a “saving faith,” which is a position not too far off from the Catholic one, but not exactly the same either.
 
Ok, thanks to everyone. The person (this debate is on a forum) has not responded yet after I used NotWorthy’s answer, but I am sure that the others will be useful if he does.
 
He responded, now saying that Catholicism is not the original Church. I’ll find something on that, shouldn’t be too hard.
 
padre2007 said:
Hi, I am debating someone they used this to justify their beleif that only believing in Jesus Christ will be sufficient to go to heaven:

Romans 1:16-17, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the (AF)Jew first and also to (AG)the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.””

Romans 10:9-10, “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”

If I truly believe, I am declared righteous.
How can I respond to this?
Click to expand...
Notice Romans 10:9-10 says NOTHING about repentance, so you should ask them…if we just “believe” does that mean we don’t have to repent?

Phil 2:12, Mt 10:22, Eph 2:8-10 all of which speak of enduring in belief and doing good works in order to be saved.

Baptism saves.

Mark 16:15 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "

1 Peter 3:20-21 “who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

Scripture doesn’t just say we only “believe” and then we are saved.
 
Repent in the scriptural sense means “to turn from sin and to turn to God” We must do this first before we can trust (believe) in God for our salvation.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

By the way there are over 150 verses in the NT that say that we are saved simply by putting our trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Repent in the scriptural sense means “to turn from sin and to turn to God” We must do this first before we can trust (believe) in God for our salvation.
Click to expand...
But that’s exactly what the other posters are saying: that when one or a dozen isolated scripture verses only say “repent” these verses also imply faith; and that when one (or one-hundred and fifty verses) say simply “believe” these verses also are implying repentance, obedience, baptism, etc., and everything else Scripture and Tradition tells us is needed.

The Holy Spirit gave us **all **the verses of the Bible (and Tradition) to take into account, not just a personal favorite to ‘trump’ all others.
 
scriabin said:
But that’s exactly what the other posters are saying: that when one or a dozen isolated scripture verses only say “repent” these verses also imply faith; and that when one (or one-hundred and fifty verses) say simply “believe” these verses also are implying repentance, obedience, baptism, etc., and everything else Scripture and Tradition tells us is needed.

The Holy Spirit gave us **all **the verses of the Bible (and Tradition) to take into account, not just a personal favorite to ‘trump’ all others.
Click to expand...
Yes but I made it very plain and eazy to understand.
I believe that Protestants DO take ALLthe verses of the Bible into account.
 
allischalmers said:
Repent in the scriptural sense means “to turn from sin and to turn to God” We must do this first before we can trust (believe) in God for our salvation.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

By the way there are over 150 verses in the NT that say that we are saved simply by putting our trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Yes, it’s simple…but the Lord wants us to show him how much we love him as much as He showed us (to the point of batting it over our heads!) how much He loves us.

And yes, I know that there is nothing to earn our salvation. What we’re talking about is SANCTIFYING ourselves, being holy. That can be done by readily accepting the graces that Our Lord gives to us.
 
I believe that Protestants DO take ALLthe verses of the Bible into account.
Click to expand...
Then please take 2 Thess 2:15 into account:

"Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

It’s NOT enough (according to Scripture) to take all the verses of the Bible into account, we must take Tradition into account.
 
scriabin said:
Then please take 2 Thess 2:15 into account:

"Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

It’s NOT enough (according to Scripture) to take all the verses of the Bible into account, we must take Tradition into account.
Click to expand...
Do you have a list of those “Traditions”? How perfectly must you follow those “Traditions” so that you will accepted into heaven?
 
The Traditions aren’t written in a “list.”

Funny how protestants just can’t stand to have anything not written down.

But over the centuries certain Traditions have been talked about and taught authoritatively.

Here’s one:

There are 4 gospels. Not 3 or 5. Matthew, Mark. Luke, and John. Sorry, no gospel of Judas, Thomas, or Peter.

Would you like to debate that Tradition?
 
scriabin said:
The Traditions aren’t written in a “list.”

Funny how protestants just can’t stand to have anything not written down.

But over the centuries certain Traditions have been talked about and taught authoritatively.

Here’s one:

There are 4 gospels. Not 3 or 5. Matthew, Mark. Luke, and John. Sorry, no gospel of Judas, Thomas, or Peter.

Would you like to debate that Tradition?
Click to expand...
I’m just trying to figure out what the “Traditions” are. I’m not trying to be difficult.

For example, is not eating meat on Friday a “Tradition”? f you don’t obey that tradition, do you lose your salvation?

Is the Assumption of Mary a “Tradition”? If you don’t believe that, do you lose your salvation?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top