How do I turn the table on atheists?

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Al
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I saw the video and I agree with you. All this complexity and its development can be explained through evolutionary mechanisms that follow the laws of nature. The issue if these laws themselves are simply accidental or are here for a purpose is another matter. **

Under what circumstances would laws be accidental? I’m not talking about the laws of gravitation or the law of changing seasons.

Under what conditions would the laws of energy and matter be accidental? And how could you ever determine that they are accidental or purpose-driven?

Under what conditions would the law of an expanding universe be accidental or purpose-driven? And how would you ever determine that? :confused:
 
atheistgirl said:
So, it wouldnt be good then.

Sarah x 🙂
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How?

As per Bobber:
Good is anything not bad that people like, or gain satisfaction from, or which increases their wellbeing
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Sex is good. I like it. I’m people. There’s no question that I gain satisfaction from it. And it increased my well-being cuz now I get to roll in the hay with the hot girl in Accounting.

It might ruin my marriage which could potentially decrease my well-being. But that’s ok, as long as you don’t tell my wife what I’m doing, it’s all good!!
 
tonyrey said:
“well-being” begs the question!

People often like, or gain satisfaction from, things which decrease their well-being…

We often dislike doing something but we know it is right.

“it” is not something we grasp with our senses but with our intellect.

Many things are good but goodness is real, intangible and indivisible. We recognise it but we cannot observe it…
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Wellbeing does not beg the question at all - wellbeing is tangible and subjective.

If you like something and it supports your wellbeing and it is not bad, it is definitely good. If someone acts to produce this in you, they have done moral good. Some actions are possible to like but do not contribute to wellbeing etc etc, but then clearly they are not very morally good. The concept is refined rather than broken by those objections.
 
OMGJ said:
How?

As per Bobber:

Sex is good. I like it. I’m people. There’s no question that I gain satisfaction from it. And it increased my well-being cuz now I get to roll in the hay with the hot girl in Accounting.

It might ruin my marriage which could potentially decrease my well-being. But that’s ok, as long as you don’t tell my wife what I’m doing, it’s all good!!
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You would have broken the trust with your wife, which is bad. Something that is bad is not good, no matter how much it is enjoyable. The measure of an action is how it impacts other people, btw.
 
tonyrey said:
It is not necessary to know for certain but to decide which is the most probable explanation and live according to what we believe is right and just. We aren’t expected to be infallible but impeccable - as far as we can… 🙂
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But what if there is no more probability that there is a god than other not-so-probable things which we do not act upon? The whole thing with explanations of life from an agnostic point of view is that positing a god is not necessary and often not helpful. You must agree that if you shared that latter point with me, it would not make you into a believer?

To expand, I think there are some things we would have to know in order to make the statements of probability which theists often use. But, we cannot know!

Is the universe created for life? What kind of data set have we got to approach that one, we live in a small corner of just one universe, so we cannot say whether this is an especially nice universe, nor whether that would mean anything.

Are humans the product of design? Evolution explains how we come to be, does it need an intelligent designer? How would we know if it did?

Do we have a purpose in life? What is definitely evidence for teleology, and not just an incidental pattern?
 
Bobber90 said:
It is not necessary to know for certain but to decide which is the most probable explanation and live according to what we believe is right and just. We aren’t expected to be infallible but impeccable - as far as we can…
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There is far more evidence for Design than Chance.
The whole thing with explanations of life from an agnostic point of view is that positing a god is not necessary…
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It is necessary if it is a state of uncertainty.
…and often not helpful.
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In what way?
You must agree that if you shared that latter point with me, it would not make you into a believer?
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Nor a disbeliever!
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The fact I think we cannot know about deities as much as is claimed is why I have such great respect and relief at the thoughts of people like Tom Honey (Anglican reverend), who say that the object of their beliefs is fundamentally unknown and unknowable. Tom Honey was in the video I posted earlier, talking about his reaction to the Asian tsunami a few years ago, and it was his concern for the human and the definite reality of suffering, above some theorising about the greatness of God, which fired me up. Yes there may be a god, but maybe there isn’t. What do we know for certain? - that humanity has got to look after itself. I cannot abide by a philosophy, religious belief or ideology that privileges the unknown or unknowable above the here and now, or above life.

Personally speaking, of course.
 
Bobber90 said:
“well-being” begs the question!
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“well” is the adverb which presupposes the adjective “good”.
If you like something and it supports your wellbeing and it is not bad, it is definitely good. If someone acts to produce this in you, they have done moral good. Some actions are possible to like but do not contribute to wellbeing etc etc, but then clearly they are not very morally good. The concept is refined rather than broken by those objections.
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You need to explain what well-being consists of…
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tonyrey said:
“well” is the adverb which presupposes the adjective “good”.

You need to explain what well-being consists of…
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Subjective happiness! It is good to inculcate subjective happiness in others, as long as nothing in the process is a larger harm. That is what I think good is.
 
OMGJ said:
Sex is good. I like it. I’m people. There’s no question that I gain satisfaction from it. And it increased my well-being cuz now I get to roll in the hay with the hot girl in Accounting.

It might ruin my marriage which could potentially decrease my well-being. But that’s ok, as long as you don’t tell my wife what I’m doing, it’s all good!!
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Aint that just like a theist. Always thinking of themselves, whether it’s can I get away with it with the hot girl in accounts, to have I done enough to ensure I get eternal salvation :p:p:p

Me - I love my husband, and I respect him, and myself and I have an enormous amount of biologically evolved empathy for him as a fellow human being - so I just naturally want to do everything that makes both of us happy, especially him and nothing that would upset either of us, especially him.

It works for us 😉

Sarah x 🙂
 
Bobber

**Subjective happiness! It is good to inculcate subjective happiness in others, as long as nothing in the process is a larger harm. That is what I think good is. **

Is there no such thing as objective happiness as opposed to subjective happiness?
 
Bobber90 said:
You would have broken the trust with your wife, which is bad. Something that is bad is not good, no matter how much it is enjoyable. The measure of an action is how it impacts other people, btw.
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Even if I don’t tell her about it or she never found out about it? What if there’s had been no trust between us anymore because she cheated on me first?

NOW is it good?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Bobber

**Subjective happiness! It is good to inculcate subjective happiness in others, as long as nothing in the process is a larger harm. That is what I think good is. **

Is there no such thing as objective happiness as opposed to subjective happiness?
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No, I don’t think so. Objective happiness? Does that equate to telling someone they’re happy because they pass certain criteria, even if they subjectively disagree?
 
OMGJ said:
Even if I don’t tell her about it or she never found out about it? What if there’s had been no trust between us anymore because she cheated on me first?

NOW is it good?
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If you were doing that accountant a big favour, then yes it might be good! Perhaps she was terminally ill…

Sorry, shouldn’t joke.
 
atheistgirl said:
Aint that just like a theist. Always thinking of themselves, whether it’s can I get away with it with the hot girl in accounts, to have I done enough to ensure I get eternal salvation :p:p:p

Me - I love my husband, and I respect him, and myself and I have an enormous amount of biologically evolved empathy for him as a fellow human being - so I just naturally want to do everything that makes both of us happy, especially him and nothing that would upset either of us, especially him.

It works for us 😉

Sarah x 🙂
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Totally got off track here. 😊

The question was if there isn’t an objective goodness, how do you know that what you are doing is good? How do you know that cheating on your spouse is bad?
 
Bobber90 said:
No, I don’t think so. Objective happiness? Does that equate to telling someone they’re happy because they pass certain criteria, even if they subjectively disagree?
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They cannot disagree objectively, can they? 😉

At all events they aren’t infallible!
 
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