How do I turn the table on atheists?

[tonyrey]

Well, precisely then! The term ‘primitive’ may seem to fit those northern Nigerians, but could sound rather insulting. That was my point, and I’m sure it would seem like a poor move if I said “Don’t listen to what they’ve got to say on life, they’re primitive.”

I did not say the UDHR was merely legalistic, but we shouldn’t assume it is the universal format and means of the expression of common desires for wellbeing. Human rights frameworks can play havoc with the traditions and practices of many societies that were until recently relatively unconnected with modern globalisation. G. C. Spivak points this out for a particular Indian community she works with, whose universal rights to fair representation are difficult to achieve consistently with their culture. European/American notions of civil society are intruded upon indigenous ways of living, and their culture is sidelined. For example, UN quotas put women in positions of power (great, satisfies the UN), who are unfortunately inexperienced and prone to manipulation by elders and outsiders, resulting in an impasse. The alternative (so Spivak thinks, and it’s not easy to tell what sometimes) is to learn from these communities, and to adapt western human rights so as to have them make sense in terms of local meanings and practices. That way, the grounds are laid for some sort of indigenous democratic government to develop.

Please explain which of the first ten articles should be adapted - and in what ways:

Article 1.

• All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
  
  Article 2.
• Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
  

      **Article 3.**

• Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
  

      **Article 4.**

• No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
  

      **Article 5.**

• No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
  

      **Article 6.**

• Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
  

     **Article 7.**

• All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
  

     **Article 8.**

• Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
  

     **Article 9.**

• No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
  

     **Article 10.**

• Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, BVollmar,

Maybe not. Actually, there are a lot better ideas out there than mine. Here is a link: ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura4.htm Try that and see what you come up with.

You are welcomed to print out your own ideas so we can read them.

God bless

With all due respect, just because AtheistGirl hasn’t accepted your argument yet does not mean she has closed her mind to all viewpoints except her own predetermined beliefs. Maybe your arguments are not as good as you think they are.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, BVollmar,

Actually, there is quite a lot of difference.

Atheists have no explanation for anything except, “Well, here it is.”

Theists look at the order that surrounds them and look to a Supreme Being as the one Who made all of this out of nothing (for if there was material just laying around, the next question would be, ‘Who made the material?’) and provided the order.

It appears that you are not really appreciating order and how it is infused in everything. Try chaos - and we would not even be able to have this conversation on the net, through this list, using the same language, with the idea that while we are communicating, we do not agree with one another. That takes order. But, don’t stop there.

Take someone who claims that there life is chaos - they ar strung out on drugs, suffering from diseases, being sought by the police, slipped on some grease, broke their hip and are now lying on the ground in incredible pain with no one around for the moment. You know, the chances are that this person is never going to say, “There is no God!” Most of the stories I have heard is that people truly begin to pray to God. Some would say, “Hey! That’s not fair! They wouldn’t normally be praying to God.” But, you know, not every Grace one gets is wrapped in a bow, with bright wrapping paper and contains just the object you had been wanting. Sometimes, Grace is as mean as a junk yard dog!

God bless

Hello,

"All atheists have is the improbability of their position. After all the smoke has cleared the argument is reduced to, “I do not believe because I do not believe”.

How is this any worse than the summary of the theist’s argument, which seems to be:

God did it, here we are, I believe because I believe and you can’t disprove anything, so what I believe is true for everyone.

 

[Whadyamean]

Hi, BVollmar,

Actually, there is quite a lot of difference.

Atheists have no explanation for anything except, “Well, here it is.”

Theists look at the order that surrounds them and look to a Supreme Being as the one Who made all of this out of nothing (for if there was material just laying around, the next question would be, ‘Who made the material?’) and provided the order.

It appears that you are not really appreciating order and how it is infused in everything. Try chaos - and we would not even be able to have this conversation on the net, through this list, using the same language, with the idea that while we are communicating, we do not agree with one another. That takes order. But, don’t stop there.

Take someone who claims that there life is chaos - they ar strung out on drugs, suffering from diseases, being sought by the police, slipped on some grease, broke their hip and are now lying on the ground in incredible pain with no one around for the moment. You know, the chances are that this person is never going to say, “There is no God!” Most of the stories I have heard is that people truly begin to pray to God. Some would say, “Hey! That’s not fair! They wouldn’t normally be praying to God.” But, you know, not every Grace one gets is wrapped in a bow, with bright wrapping paper and contains just the object you had been wanting. Sometimes, Grace is as mean as a junk yard dog!

God bless

Methinks you vastly under and mis-estimate atheists, having a sadly stereotypical theist based prejudice as to what they are about.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Whadyamean,

Well, if your response was any indication of having under-estimated their ability to explain themselves … I have not missed it by much, if at all.

Seriously, if you are going to post something, than you are encouraged to come up with some content instead of name calling.

God bless

Methinks you vastly under and mis-estimate atheists, having a sadly stereotypical theist based prejudice as to what they are about.

 

[Crux_Sancta]

I’m reading the book the godless delusion, and it’s very helpful. I was just wondering if there is a good set of questions to ask atheists to maybe help them understand their view holds no ground and constantly contradict each other. Thanks

Well, most atheists believe in the existence of matter, so I suppose one could ask:

What is matter governed by? (The answer is: physical laws)
How are physical laws represented? With mathematical formulas.

If mathematical formulas perfectly represent physical laws, then it makes sense that mathematical formulas generated them in the first place.

What are mathematical formulas based on? Logic and axioms.

Logic and axioms are ideas.

These ideas would exist in a mind. Furthermore, not just any mind, but a mind which is transcendent to the universe, but whose ideas are immanent within the universe, which is basically…the mind of God.

What allows a mind to focus on individual ideas is…language. Words in the mind of God, which order the universe. The Logos.

So not only does God exist, the Logos or Word of God exists as well, and God is transcendent, and his will is immanent within the universe…which bears a striking resemblence to the God of scripture.

 

[jmallon764]

I’m reading the book the godless delusion, and it’s very helpful. I was just wondering if there is a good set of questions to ask atheists to maybe help them understand their view holds no ground and constantly contradict each other. Thanks

hello im jacob and i have joined this website to make it less biast and i am indeed atheist
FIRST i am going to explain that im NOT here to be disrespectfull merley to show other side of arguments
SECOND we do indeed have firm basis and if we do not then you have as much basis as do we
THIRD while i am on here i promise to be respectfull to your religon so long as i do not recive anything rude to me i will be nice if you are
FOURTH there is no way to turn tables on us as there is no way to turn tables on you every argument each side has it ends with the last to phrases how was god made for atheists and for christians it is well how was the first atom, animal, molecule e.t.c and the only way we well find out who is right is when we die when the time comes

• sincerly jacob mallon

 

[samiam1611]

hello im jacob and i have joined this website to make it less biast and i am indeed atheist
FIRST i am going to explain that im NOT here to be disrespectfull merley to show other side of arguments
SECOND we do indeed have firm basis and if we do not then you have as much basis as do we
THIRD while i am on here i promise to be respectfull to your religon so long as i do not recive anything rude to me i will be nice if you are
FOURTH there is no way to turn tables on us as there is no way to turn tables on you every argument each side has it ends with the last to phrases how was god made for atheists and for christians it is well how was the first atom, animal, molecule e.t.c and the only way we well find out who is right is when we die when the time comes

• sincerly jacob mallon

Welcome to CAF, jmallon! We can always use more of your type around here!

 

[mdisse]

I have a question, where did humans concept of another world & a creator come from? Is it just a coinsidence that every culture has had a sipiritual concept? sorry I know I dont sound very Catholic but Im not strong in my faith so im trying to find some answers

 

[BVollmar]

Hi, BVollmar,

Even on the nitty-fritty practical level, there are those who claim to not believe in God and work as First Responders, Disaster Relief Volunteers, Social Workers, Nurses, etc - who see the effects of evil and work very hard to minimize its effects.

Look into your own heart and see if you can see a stranger drowning in a public swimming pool with no one else around - and decide NOT to throw them a line or call for help - and telling them that if they drown it was God’s Will and must be for a greater good. If you could do this - well, I guess we really don’t have anything to talk about. If you would try to save that person… well … ask yourself why. Your reasons are your own - but, let me answer my own question.

Most of us have a genuine love in our heart for others. How this is expressed is all over the place - but, in my opinion that love was placed there by God. But, as we go through life, no matter who or what we love - it always comes up a little bit short of what we had wanted - and this seems to be a universal condition transcending both time and culture.

St. Augustine (354AD-430AD) sought for love in a lot of the wrong places … and came to a realization when he said, “Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee".

Maybe this will help explain why most of us want to reduce the impact of evil.

God bless

Of course I would help the drowning child, so I guess we can continue.

The remainder of my post won’t apply to things like natural disasters or accidents. Those things are not necessarily evil in my mind. I’m more concerned with acts of human violence.

Somewhere, probably at the minute I’m typing this, a child is being beaten to death by its parent. A political dissident is being beaten to death. A woman is being raped by a male family member. No one else is around to watch these acts of violence. I don’t think these these are far-fetched scenarios, as they are reported quite frequently around the world.

As I understand the various points on this forum and others, God allows the possibility of these acts occurring because if he limited our free will in any way, it would diminish our ability to freely choose to love and worship him. So if I was a Christian, I should be thanking the child, the dissident, and the woman for giving up their lives so that I could freely choose to love and worship God.

As I think about other acts of violence, how do I know if there is a greater good or not? I don’t, except that I do know that without evil in the world, there is no possibility of truly loving God of our own free will. So who am I, lowly human that I am, to interfere with someone’s exercise of their God-given free will?

My understanding (of which I’m sure will be claimed is not correct) is that God only created the possibility of evil, not evil itself. Coupled with the idea that we are all sinners and at least of of us will commit acts of evil, humans are only choosing when, where, why, and how the evil will occur. In my mind, this doesn’t relieve God of his responsibility for evil. Its like someone saying he only bought the gun used to kill the store-owner, he didn’t actually fire the gun.

 

[BVollmar]

Hi, BVollmar,

Maybe not. Actually, there are a lot better ideas out there than mine. Here is a link: ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura4.htm Try that and see what you come up with.

You are welcomed to print out your own ideas so we can read them.

God bless

Hi,

I’m sorry, I don’t understand the purpose of that link. I was just making a comment regarding the assumptions you were making about the one particular Atheist you were posting with.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Of course I would help the drowning child, so I guess we can continue.

Why would you help a parasite?

 

[BVollmar]

Hi, BVollmar,

Actually, there is quite a lot of difference.

Atheists have no explanation for anything except, “Well, here it is.”

Theists look at the order that surrounds them and look to a Supreme Being as the one Who made all of this out of nothing (for if there was material just laying around, the next question would be, ‘Who made the material?’) and provided the order.

It appears that you are not really appreciating order and how it is infused in everything. Try chaos - and we would not even be able to have this conversation on the net, through this list, using the same language, with the idea that while we are communicating, we do not agree with one another. That takes order. But, don’t stop there.

Take someone who claims that there life is chaos - they ar strung out on drugs, suffering from diseases, being sought by the police, slipped on some grease, broke their hip and are now lying on the ground in incredible pain with no one around for the moment. You know, the chances are that this person is never going to say, “There is no God!” Most of the stories I have heard is that people truly begin to pray to God. Some would say, “Hey! That’s not fair! They wouldn’t normally be praying to God.” But, you know, not every Grace one gets is wrapped in a bow, with bright wrapping paper and contains just the object you had been wanting. Sometimes, Grace is as mean as a junk yard dog!

God bless

Actually, my atheism doesn’t say anything other than that I deny the existence of God. My atheism only tells you what I don’t believe in. What I haven’t told you is what I do believe in.

Time is running short, so I’ll post more later.

Cheers!

 

[BVollmar]

Hi, BVollmar,

Actually, there is quite a lot of difference.

Atheists have no explanation for anything except, “Well, here it is.”

Theists look at the order that surrounds them and look to a Supreme Being as the one Who made all of this out of nothing (for if there was material just laying around, the next question would be, ‘Who made the material?’) and provided the order.

It appears that you are not really appreciating order and how it is infused in everything. Try chaos - and we would not even be able to have this conversation on the net, through this list, using the same language, with the idea that while we are communicating, we do not agree with one another. That takes order. But, don’t stop there.

Take someone who claims that there life is chaos - they ar strung out on drugs, suffering from diseases, being sought by the police, slipped on some grease, broke their hip and are now lying on the ground in incredible pain with no one around for the moment. You know, the chances are that this person is never going to say, “There is no God!” Most of the stories I have heard is that people truly begin to pray to God. Some would say, “Hey! That’s not fair! They wouldn’t normally be praying to God.” But, you know, not every Grace one gets is wrapped in a bow, with bright wrapping paper and contains just the object you had been wanting. Sometimes, Grace is as mean as a junk yard dog!

God bless

Actually, I can appreciate order. I’m fortunate to live in an area in Kentucky outside the city, next to a horse farm. I step outside every morning to let my dogs outside, and I gaze into the sky admiring the many stars, the moving clouds, the brightness of the moon, the cool wind, and the beauty of the large, muscular animals grazing in the field next to me. I’m honestly in awe of the vastness of our natural world and all that has happened in it that resulted in me standing there pondering it all. The idea that God created it all never crosses my mind. I can appreciate and be thankful for what I have without knowing the source of it. And experience has taught me that causation is often very hard to pin down. I have to live my life without knowing the source of everything, you do as well.

In your example of a chaotic life, your statement about the chances that people are not saying there is no god is a statement about probabilities based on the amount of stories you’ve heard in your next sentence. That does not constitute a fact and you can’t extrapolate a fact out of your limited experience.

In fact, 4-5 years ago when I was suffering through a major depression, health problems, and I was questioning every about my life, it wasn’t prayer to anyone that started my progression out of those situations. It was honest self-reflection, a desire to do things differently, and the love of family members, no God or gods involved to my knowledge. It was actually my strengthening disbelief in God that reaffirmed what I do positively believe in.

Being an atheist only tells you what we don’t believe in. Atheists have many other things we believe in and provide explanations for what we see. You may not understand it, but understanding, much like grace, doesn’t always come wrapped in a bow.

 

[BVollmar]

Why would you help a parasite?

I honestly have no idea. What is leading to?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I honestly have no idea. What is leading to?

So you have no idea why you would save a parasite, but you would do it anyway.

 

[tqualey]

Hi Crux Sancta,

Very good!

Welcome to CAF!

God bless

Well, most atheists believe in the existence of matter, so I suppose one could ask:

What is matter governed by? (The answer is: physical laws)
How are physical laws represented? With mathematical formulas.

If mathematical formulas perfectly represent physical laws, then it makes sense that mathematical formulas generated them in the first place.

What are mathematical formulas based on? Logic and axioms.

Logic and axioms are ideas.

These ideas would exist in a mind. Furthermore, not just any mind, but a mind which is transcendent to the universe, but whose ideas are immanent within the universe, which is basically…the mind of God.

What allows a mind to focus on individual ideas is…language. Words in the mind of God, which order the universe. The Logos.

So not only does God exist, the Logos or Word of God exists as well, and God is transcendent, and his will is immanent within the universe…which bears a striking resemblence to the God of scripture.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, BVollmar,

The purpose of the link is to provide some information to Atheists in general about realities that they appear to be ignoring.

Review the link and let me know what you think of it. And, so there is no mistake, this invitation is extended to all Athesits/Agnostics.

God bless

Hi,

I’m sorry, I don’t understand the purpose of that link. I was just making a comment regarding the assumptions you were making about the one particular Atheist you were posting with.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

What is matter governed by? (The answer is: physical laws)
How are physical laws represented? With mathematical formulas.

If mathematical formulas perfectly represent physical laws, then it makes sense that mathematical formulas generated them in the first place.

What are mathematical formulas based on? Logic and axioms.

My understanding is that physical laws are descriptions of observations that haven’t yet been replaced by better descriptions (which does happen from time to time). The math are part descriptive of these observations, but not prescriptive. There have at times been the need to “invent” a new type of math to better describe an observation.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Mdisse,

You sound fine to me…

There are some things that are inate to the human mind - sort of like self-evident truths such as the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, objects only fall down - never up, water seeks its own level, etc. Well as I understand the circumstance, people in different cultures throughout recorded history built temples and images of god(s) to pay worship to whatever the Supreme Being is - for making things that they knew that neither they or their parents or grandparents made, or were even capable of making.

I understand that there may be a group of two that specifically denied a Supreme Power - but, these guys are truly the exception rather than the rule. It took a much longer time for individuals in certain groups to actually deny the existence of God.

There is an excellent opportunity to learn quite a lot on CAF - so be sure to look around at the other threads that are open right now. There are many learning experiences at your finger tips.

God bless

I have a question, where did humans concept of another world & a creator come from? Is it just a coinsidence that every culture has had a sipiritual concept? sorry I know I dont sound very Catholic but Im not strong in my faith so im trying to find some answers