How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[joe370]

YKohen
*]Jeremiah 21:1 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, when king Zedekiah sent unto him Pashhur the son of Malchiah, and Zephaniah the son of Maaseiah the priest, saying:
*]Jeremiah 21:7 And afterward, saith the LORD, I will deliver Zedekiah king of Judah, and his servants, and the people, and such as are left in this city from the pestilence, from the sword, and from the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon…
*]Jeremiah 24:8 And as the bad figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so bad; surely thus saith the LORD: So will I make Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt.
*]Jeremiah 27:3 and send them to the king of Edom, and to the king of Moab, and to the king of the children of Ammon, and to the king of Tyre, and to the king of Zidon, by the hand of the messengers that come to Jerusalem unto Zedekiah king of Judah;
*]Jeremiah 28:1 And it came to pass the same year, in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah…

mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1152.htm

If all of Zedekiah’s sons were killed then wouldn’t that kill the blood line? Or, does this passage look differently in the Jewish Bible?

“But the army of the Chaldeans pursued after the king, and overtook Zedekiah in the plains of Jericho; and all his army was scattered from him. Then they took the king, and carried him up unto the king of Babylon to Riblah in the land of Hamath; and he gave judgment upon him. And the king of Babylon slew the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes; he slew also all the princes of Judah in Riblah. And he put out the eyes of Zedekiah; and the king of Babylon bound him in fetters, and carried him to Babylon, and put him in prison till the day of his death”

 

[joe370]

2 Chronicles Chapter 36

10 And at the return of the year king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem.

11 Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign; and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem;

Back in 1 Chronicles 3, this is the text:

15 And the sons of Josiah: the firstborn Johanan, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah, the fourth Shallum.

16 And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.

17 And the sons of Jeconiah–the same is Assir–Shealtiel his son;

18 and Malchiram, and Pedaiah, and Shenazzar, Jekamiah, Hoshama, and Nedabiah.

What am I missing here? NOWHERE in the original Hebrew text is there any verse that says “The Royal Line After the Exile: The descendants of Jehoiachin the captive”

Agreed. My bad.

 

[YKohen]

mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1152.htm

If all of Zedekiah’s sons were killed then wouldn’t that kill the blood line?"

So I guess that means we would have to go back up the blood line to find a Davidic descendant. Again, I’m not the expert, and I’m no prophet; or a genealogist.

When it happens, we’ll all know.

I’m sure we can agree on that part- right?

 

[joe370]

So I guess that means we would have to go back up the blood line to find a Davidic descendant. Again, I’m not the expert, and I’m no prophet; or a genealogist.

When it happens, we’ll all know.

I’m sure we can agree on that part- right?

Absolutely my friend.

Got to run; talk to you a little later…

 

[KathleenGee]

We study the geneology of Christ in the Gospel of St. Matthew.

My question is to look at Mary, Christ’s mother’s ancestors.

 

[YKohen]

Again, in Judaism (and you can see this throughout the Bible), geneology is only from the father; not the mother.

All the best.

 

[Holly3278]

I honestly don’t understand how the Jews can reject Jesus as the Messiah. I mean, He fulfilled every single Old Testament prediction of what the Messiah would be like so He clearly is the Messiah. So why they reject Him as the Messiah I have no idea.

 

[InJesusItrust]

I would expect it is because they expected the kingdom to be fulfilled instantly. But the Messiah chose to convert the world first and adopt Gentiles as children of God.

 

[YKohen]

I honestly don’t understand how the Jews can reject Jesus as the Messiah. I mean, He fulfilled every single Old Testament prediction of what the Messiah would be like so He clearly is the Messiah. So why they reject Him as the Messiah I have no idea.

Actually, we reject him because he didn’t fulfill anything that the messiah will according to the Bible.

And even before that, he didn’t have Davidic lineage, so he was disqualified even beforehand.

 

[mercytruth]

Since I knew absolutely nothing about Freemasonry, I looked it up, starting with Wikipedia, of course- to see what it is.

There are parts of it that sound like they could be good general principles, I suppose, but there are definitely issues that would be problematic for religious Jews, both on a practical level as well as on a philosophical/theological level.

In any case, I looked it up in Hebrew as well, and from a religious perspective, found almost nothing. What that means is that it isn’t enough of a phenomenon to even make the rabbis deal with it. I saw 1 article that said that Israel has around 3000 members (is that what they’re called? And because a Freemason wrote it, numbers could be exaggerated for all I know). Out of a population of around 8 million, that would mean 3 to 4 out of 10,000 Israelis is a member; not very significant at all.

As to the lodges in Israel: What immediately caught my eye was the languages of each Lodge. I would naturally expect Hebrew (or maybe Arabic) to be the language. But that isn’t the case. There are lodges in Spanish, English, French, Romanian, Russian, German, and even Turkish. This alone shows how non-mainstream it is here- and I don’t care how many lodges are listed: Out of the 3000 alleged members, what percentage are even Israeli and what percentage are foreigners?

In fact, there is a Wikipedia article in Hebrew on them (he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%94%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C: You can put it in Google Translate since you probably don’t understand), and see that the origins here were in fact from non-Jews like Robert Morris. Also see web.archive.org/web/20070708101023/http://www.oescal.org/2005/2005RobMorris.htm.

Interesting point is that according to their web site, the Grand Master is Nadim Mansour (an Arab), and “The Grand Lodge of the State of Israel was consecrated on October 20, 1953 at the Y.M.C.A. Hall in Jerusalem.”

It all centers around this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Oaths

You may not be able to understand all of the parlance but you should get some sort of idea.

If you do not mind, I would like to ask you some questions regarding the three oaths.

One of the rabbis is quoted as saying that the wall was ascended, or stormed when the Jewish captivity of Babylon resettled in the land 70 years later (presumably), and for this reason the second temple was destroyed.

Did not King Cyrus give permission for the Jewish exiles to return to the land after approximately 70 years of exile in Babylon?

Secondly, was it ever the consesus that in order to ascend the wall enmasse or storm the wall enmasse it would be through the leading of the Messiah?

Thirdly, could we not consider the Zionist movement to be similar to the ascending of the wall in which the Babylonian Jews settled in land during the reign of King Cyrus?

Thanks for any response to these questions

shalom

micah

 

[YKohen]

I would expect it is because they expected the kingdom to be fulfilled instantly. But the Messiah chose to convert the world first and adopt Gentiles as children of God.

Actually, we have been waiting patiently for thousands of years. And as per the great rabbi and scholar, Maimonides’ 13 Articles of Faith, we say the following daily:

“I believe with full faith in the coming of the Messiah. And even though he tarries, with all that, I await his arrival with every day.”

 

[YKohen]

If you do not mind, I would like to ask you some questions regarding the three oaths.

Sure. No promises that I can answer them though.

One of the rabbis is quoted as saying that the wall was ascended, or stormed when the Jewish captivity of Babylon resettled in the land 70 years later (presumably), and for this reason the second temple was destroyed.

I didn’t see that. If you could please find it for me, I can look into it further; maybe tomorrow.

Did not King Cyrus give permission for the Jewish exiles to return to the land ater approximately 70 years of exile in Babylon?

Yes.

Secondly, was it ever the consesus that in order to ascend the wall enmasse or storm the wall enmasse it would be through the leading of the Messiah?

Not sure. I don’t think there was ever consensus on anything. 2 Jews. 3 opinions.

In general, we shy away from trying to “predict the end” and all of that, because nothing good ever comes of it. Look in Christian and general history and you will see the same thing. It always ends in death, disaster, disappointment, and a great weakening of faith.

We believe that when the messiah comes, he will come, and when he leads us, we will follow- however he says to.

Thirdly, could we not consider the Zionist movement to be similar to the ascending of the wall in ways similar to the way in which the Jews settled in land during the reign of King Cyrus?

Many do, which is why they said that it isn’t an issue. Others have said that because it isn’t a Biblical commandment, which we believe is eternal, but rather a rabbinic injunction, of which the strongest only last 1000 years, it isn’t an issue. Still others say that because the 3rd was broken by the other side, the first 2 are no longer valid.

Take your pick- even multiple picks.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Actually, we have been waiting patiently for thousands of years. And as per the great rabbi and scholar, Maimonides’ 13 Articles of Faith, we say the following daily:

“I believe with full faith in the coming of the Messiah. And even though he tarries, with all that, I await his arrival with every day.”

Well, Jews usually ask that if Jesus is the messiah, where is His kingdom? The answer is His kingdom is going to be fulfilled when the times of the gentiles ends. He gave a certain parable that a king invited his people but none were ready so he invited outsiders. Gentiles are now added to Israel.

 

[mercytruth]

Sure. No promises that I can answer them though.

I didn’t see that. If you could please find it for me, I can look into it further; maybe tomorrow.

Yes.

Not sure. I don’t think there was ever consensus on anything. 2 Jews. 3 opinions.

In general, we shy away from trying to “predict the end” and all of that, because nothing good ever comes of it. Look in Christian and general history and you will see the same thing. It always ends in death, disaster, disappointment, and a great weakening of faith.

We believe that when the messiah comes, he will come, and when he leads us, we will follow- however he says to.

Many do, which is why they said that it isn’t an issue. Others have said that because it isn’t a Biblical commandment, which we believe is eternal, but rather a rabbinic injunction, of which the strongest only last 1000 years, it isn’t an issue. Still others say that because the 3rd was broken by the other side, the first 2 are no longer valid.

Take your pick- even multiple picks.

Regarding my first question, here is the citation(s):

**If it is a wall", if Israel would have ascended like a wall from Babylon, the Temple would not have been destroyed during that period for a second time. Rabbi Zeira went to the marketplace to buy something. He said to the one who was weighing: that was weighed very fairly. He responded: Do not depart from here Babylonian because your ancestors destroyed the Temple. At that moment Rabbi Zeira said, are not my ancestors the same as the ancestors of this one?! Rabbi Zeira entered the house of study and heard the voice of Rabbi Sheila who was sitting and teaching: ‘If it is a wall’, if Israel would have ascended like a wall from the Exile, the Temple would not have been destroyed a second time. He said: the unlearned person taught me well.[3] **

Now, my other question if you do not mind?

Should not the temple have been rebuilt by now if the regathering of Israel into the land is to be considered of G-d?

Reading about these three oaths has really helped me to understand why I have conflicting emotions/attitudes/opinions about the State of Israel. I used to be a ‘Christian Zionist’ of sorts, but after living in Israel for a time, I began to have these conflicting opinions. It has helped me to see that from my perspective, there was something that was ordained of G-d, and something that was not ordained of G-d.

shalom

micah

 

[YKohen]

Well, Jews usually ask that if Jesus is the messiah, where is His kingdom? The answer is His kingdom is going to be fulfilled when the times of the gentiles ends. He gave a certain parable that a king invited his people but none were ready so he invited outsiders. Gentiles are now added to Israel.

Again, we differ here. Nowhere in the Torah does it say that the messiah will come, not accomplish what the Torah says that he will, die, and come again another time.

In terms of the Gentiles being added to Israel, our concept is that like an orchestra, not everyone is a violinist, a trumpet player, etc. Were that the case, then the music would sound flat. Each has his or her role to play, and if each plays it properly; separately but in tune with his/her neighbor, then the result is beautiful music; for G-d’s glory.

 

[YKohen]

Regarding my first question, here is the citation(s):

**If it is a wall", if Israel would have ascended like a wall from Babylon, the Temple would not have been destroyed during that period for a second time. Rabbi Zeira went to the marketplace to buy something. He said to the one who was weighing: that was weighed very fairly. He responded: Do not depart from here Babylonian because your ancestors destroyed the Temple. At that moment Rabbi Zeira said, are not my ancestors the same as the ancestors of this one?! Rabbi Zeira entered the house of study and heard the voice of Rabbi Sheila who was sitting and teaching: ‘If it is a wall’, if Israel would have ascended like a wall from the Exile, the Temple would not have been destroyed a second time. He said: the unlearned person taught me well.[3] **

What that is saying is that we should have ascended like a wall to avert the destruction.

Should not the temple have been rebuilt by now if the regathering of Israel into the land is to be considered of G-d?

No. Consider this: Assuming, as we do, that G-d works His will through natural means these days (i.e. no overt miracles), it would make sense only that first the nation of Israel returns- with Jewish sovereignty and THEN we rebuild.

Reading about these three oaths has really helped me to understand why I have conflicting emotions/attitudes/opinions about the State of Israel. I used to be a ‘Christian Zionist’ of sorts, but after living in Israel for a time, I began to have these conflicting opinions. It has helped me to see that from my perspective, there was something that was ordained of G-d, and something that was not ordained of G-d.

shalom

micah

1. When did you live here? What were you doing?
2. I think it’s all ordained by G-d, as per His Biblical promise.

Be back tomorrow. Laila tov from Israel.

 

[joe370]

Actually, we reject him because he didn’t fulfill anything that the messiah will according to the Bible.

And even before that, he didn’t have Davidic lineage, so he was disqualified even beforehand.

Hey YKohen. Could you give me the key Jewish expectations regarding the coming of the Messiah? What must that man, in the future, fulfil to satisfy the role of the messiah?

Also, other than Jesus and the genealogies, regarding the Davidic king (we covered that) could you show me where Jesus failed present day Judaism regarding the fulfilment of the Messiah?

Thanks, in advance…

 

[Kaninchen]

Hey YKohen. Could you give me the key Jewish expectations regarding the coming of the Messiah? What must that man, in the future, fulfil to satisfy the role of the messiah?

Also, other than Jesus and the genealogies, regarding the Davidic king (we covered that) could you show me where Jesus failed present day Judaism regarding the fulfilment of the Messiah?

Thanks, in advance…

You may find the following helpful on the subject of Messiah:

Judaism 101;

Jewish Virtual Library;

My Jewish Learning;

Chabad.

 

[joe370]

You may find the following helpful on the subject of Messiah:

Judaism 101;

Jewish Virtual Library;

My Jewish Learning;

Chabad.

Question regarding the following:

'For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah 33

Acording to Jeremiah, Jeconiah’s line was cursed, which explains why there was a brief interruption regarding the throne of Israel:

This is what the LORD says: “Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule any more in Judah.”

Is there a similar example regarding the Levitical priests? If not, then where is the Jewish Levitical priesthood today?

 

[joe370]

You may find the following helpful on the subject of Messiah:

Judaism 101;

Jewish Virtual Library;

My Jewish Learning;

Chabad.

Thanks.