How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[mercytruth]

What that is saying is that we should have ascended like a wall to avert the destruction.

No. Consider this: Assuming, as we do, that G-d works His will through natural means these days (i.e. no overt miracles), it would make sense only that first the nation of Israel returns- with Jewish sovereignty and THEN we rebuild.

1. When did you live here? What were you doing?
2. I think it’s all ordained by G-d, as per His Biblical promise.

Be back tomorrow. Laila tov from Israel.

Boker Tov, YKohen,

Well, we may never agree as to whether secular Zionism was ordained of God. It was my understanding that Moses said that when Israel returned to the land, that His people would turn to the LORD G-d. I do not think that secular Zionists had any sort of turning to the Holy One, if anything they turned to a policy of ‘the Iron Wall’. We can always pray for one another. Rabbi M. Antelman once made it known to me that Ps.130 is a good prayer for the people of Israel.

As far as your questions, I was on Kibbutz Hagoshrim near Kiryat Shmona volunteering in the avocado orchads, and in the kitchen running their dishwasher. The manner in which the floors were washed down with buckets of water and squeegied out the door was a totally new experience.

The Shabbat dinners were the most remarkable. White table cloths on the dining tables, candle lit. There was a **tangible peace **that settled over the kibbutz on Shabbat, eventhough most were secular Jews. G-d indeed honored their faithfulness to Shabbat. Thus, everything that accompanied the outbreak of the Lebanon war several years ago from both sides of the border was very disturbing to me.

Some years after my kibbutz experience, I was volunteering in the kitchen of the military hospital at the base of Mt.Carmel in Haifa, Israel. I do not think I have ever eaten any better tasting vegetables, than when I lived in Israel. My humorous ride in an ambulance after taking the garbage out to the dumpster and being scratched by a cat is memorable.
We must have stopped at two or three medical clinics making sure that I did not have as they said, “Rabbi”. Finally, a doctor saw me, and said you to me, " You can not get rabies from a cat scratching you". Well, I knew that, but they insisted I be treated for Rabbi, and two beautiful angelic nurses from the hospital made sure of it.

I really appreciated the fact that Muslims, Christians and Jews all seemed to live peaceably in Haifa. The walks along the Mediterranean shore were beautiful. Seeing a shepherd with his staff and his sheep coming down Mt.Carmel one day, while passing Israeli children as they were happily running around on their playground remains a vivid memory to me to this day.

There are so many wonderful and positive experiences in living in Israel. The biblical sights and other points of interest were great, but frankly, I enjoyed my conversations with the Jewish people, Muslim Arabs, and Christians even more.

I remember one conversation with a Muslim Arab. At some point in our conversation, he said to me, “I’ll answer your question, if you can answer my question correctly”. OK, I said. He then asked me, “Who is reponsible for the death of 1/4 of the population?” I could not answer his troubling question. He said to me with a sheepish grin, “Cain”.

I truly wish that all faiths could live in peace in Israel. That we would choose to cross over our religious differences, and unlike Cain, say that we are indeed, our brother’s keeper.

shalom

micah

 

[InJesusItrust]

Again, we differ here. Nowhere in the Torah does it say that the messiah will come, not accomplish what the Torah says that he will, die, and come again another time…

Actually, reasoning about the scriptures reveals that. Though I am not sure if the Book of Daniel is in the Torah?

[BIBLEDRB]Daniel 9:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

The messiah will come, get killed, and then there will be desolation at the end of time. If the messiah accomplished setting his kingdom, there would be no war or desolation, but peace. Then the messiah will have to return from the dead to fulfill the messianic prophecy. Either the messiah will return again, or there are two messiahs. One messiah has to be destroyed and another has to establish the messianic era, or the messiah has to return from the dead.

It is interesting to note that both Jesus and the anti-christ die (wound in his head) and return. Whereas the Jews reject Jesus, they will accept the anti-christ who claims the same prophecies apply to him. At least that is what Catholic mystics have claimed.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Here is something that you might find interesting: jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_1/timetable

The link does not seem to realize that the sacrifice for sins is now the Holy Mass.

 

[Kaninchen]

Question regarding the following:

'For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah 33

Acording to Jeremiah, Jeconiah’s line was cursed, which explains why there was a brief interruption regarding the throne of Israel:

This is what the LORD says: “Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule any more in Judah.”

Is there a similar example regarding the Levitical priests? If not, then where is the Jewish Levitical priesthood today?

Well, I’m the wrong poster for this sort of thing, I don’t ‘do’ proof texts.

There are a number of reasons for this, not the least of which is that, after over a decade and a half of discussing religion on message boards/lists, I’m convinced that Google can be the friend of anybody interested in missionary/anti-missionary positions on all of them. Friendship with Google is a great saving on typing time (on both sides), especially given that neither side will ever be convinced anyway. Here’s a nice article by Rabbi Singer, by the way.

 

[Kaninchen]

Actually, reasoning about the scriptures reveals that. Though I am not sure if the Book of Daniel is in the Torah?

It isn’t. Torah is ‘Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy’. The Tanakh (‘Old Testament’ to you) is divided into ‘Torah, Prophets, Writings’, Daniel is in Writings.

 

[joe370]

Actually, we reject him because he didn’t fulfill anything that the messiah will according to the Bible.

And even before that, he didn’t have Davidic lineage, so he was disqualified even beforehand.

Hey YK, I am sincerely looking to resolve this matter and I have zero ulterior motive in place. I have just always been curious my friend and you seem really sharp when it comes to these matters.

Passage:

'For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah 33

According to Jeremiah, (as we both know) Jeconiah’s line was cursed, which explains why there was (in my case) a brief interruption regarding the messiah Jesus and the throne of Israel, and is (inyour cas) a brief interruption regarding the long-awaited Messiah, That said, let’s move forward to the aspects of the perpetual Levitical priesthood:

Is there a similar example found in Scripture regarding the Levitical priests? If not, then where is the Jewish Levitical priesthood today?

 

[Kaninchen]

Is there a similar example found in Scripture regarding the Levitical priests? If not, then where is the Jewish Levitical priesthood today?

My apologies over the missing link to Rabbi Singer - here’s the real one.

 

[RobbyS]

Well, I’m the wrong poster for this sort of thing, I don’t ‘do’ proof texts.

There are a number of reasons for this, not the least of which is that, after over a decade and a half of discussing religion on message boards/lists, I’m convinced that Google can be the friend of anybody interested in missionary/anti-missionary positions on all of them. Friendship with Google is a great saving on typing time (on both sides), especially given that neither side will ever be convinced anyway. Here’s a nice article by Rabbi Singer, by the way.

A point to remember is that rabbinical judaism and Christianity were the only two viable forms of “Judaism” left after 70. The rabbis reflected the “eastern” wing and looked toward Babylon. In the West, the Jews were more open. It may well be that a large number of Jews become Christian. It seems to have been the case in Rome.

 

[Kaninchen]

A point to remember is that rabbinical judaism and Christianity were the only two viable forms of “Judaism” left after 70. The rabbis reflected the “eastern” wing and looked toward Babylon. In the West, the Jews were more open. It may well be that a large number of Jews become Christian. It seems to have been the case in Rome.

The Karaites would disagree on viability.

I’d, obviously, disagree on the question of whether Christianity is a ‘form’ of Judaism and the real cataclysm/diaspora followed the defeat of the Bar Kokhba revolt (135 CE). The diaspora was throughout the Roman World.

 

[YKohen]

Hey YKohen. Could you give me the key Jewish expectations regarding the coming of the Messiah? What must that man, in the future, fulfil to satisfy the role of the messiah?

OK Joe- Fantastic questions. Very complicated, but here goes… Let me preface with this:

When G-d appeared to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:8), He said:
***and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey… ***

How it would unfold explicitly, Moses, the greatest prophet of all times, was not told the details- only that it would happen. G-d would make it happen.

And Exodus 3:20:
And I will put forth My hand, and smite Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in the midst thereof.

What wonders? Moses wasn’t told explicitly either.

Later on, when the children of Israel arrived at the Red Sea (Exodus 14:15):
***And the L-RD said unto Moses: 'Wherefore criest thou unto Me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward. ***

Moses led them out of Egypt to the edge of the water. The Egyptians were coming up rapidly from behind, and suddenly Moses didn’t know what to do? Moses, the greatest of all prophets?

If Moses of all people didn’t know G-d’s exact plan and how exactly everything would unfold, can we, who are nowhere near his level, know?

Christianity has dogma. Judaism (and by Judaism, I am speaking about traditional, Orthodox Judaism) arguably does not, and this includes the exact details of the messiah. We have the Bible, which includes many different passages about what will be, but not the details, the sequence of events, etc. When it all unfolds, we will know and eventually, we believe, so will the rest of the world.

An example: Take a look at Ezekiel 37. When I read it, it is clear to me that this is talking about Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen and the other Nazi death camps to the modern state of Israel and into the future. Can I know for sure- 100% Not until the whole process is over.

Note that there are no exact details in Ezekiel 37. The wonder of it all is even greater this way.

I would suggest that you take a look at the following links. Not everything is 100% accurate, but it’s definitely a starting point:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_principles_of_faith#The_messiah

And for a more general picture to give you background:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_principles_of_faith

And this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

Also, other than Jesus and the genealogies, regarding the Davidic king (we covered that) could you show me where Jesus failed present day Judaism regarding the fulfilment of the Messiah?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology#In_the_Tanakh_.28Hebrew_Bible.29

Again, those verses are very general regarding the messianic era. For how exactly it all unfolds, the sequence of events, etc., we will have to wait until it happens.

But in terms of Jesus specifically, I would respectfully argue that the exact opposite of many of the messianic prophesies of the Bible occurred in his time: The Temple was destroyed, the cities were destroyed, the nation of Israel brought low- exiled and scattered to the 4 corners ofthe earth, war and tragedy to the nation of Israel, etc.

It seems to me that the Church Fathers understood this and were challenged by it, and that’s why they were theologically compelled to come up with the concept of the “second coming”.

I hope that this is an adequate starting point, and at the same time, wasn’t too offensive in presentation.

 

[YKohen]

Question regarding the following:

Is there a similar example regarding the Levitical priests?

Not that I am aware of.

If not, then where is the Jewish Levitical priesthood today?

Here I am- ready, willing, and able.

After the 10 tribes of Israel were exiled and dispersed, the remaining tribe was Judah, which is why were are all referred to as “Jews” today. But Levi (including the priestly descendants of Aaron) didn’t have a portion of the land. We lived dispersed among the tribes,so some of us also are around now.

You might find this interesting:

cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm

 

[YKohen]

Well, we may never agree as to whether secular Zionism was ordained of God. It was my understanding that Moses said that when Israel returned to the land, that His people would turn to the LORD G-d.

Note the sequence of events in the verses:

**Deuteronomy Chapter 30:

4 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee.
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.**

First G-d returns us to the land, then He multiplies us, and THEN He circumcises our hearts.

We see this elsewhere as well, for instance:

Ezekiel 37:

12 Therefore prophesy, and say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, O My people.
14 And I will put My spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land; and ye shall know that I the LORD have spoken, and performed it, saith the LORD.'

With the caveat:

Ezekiel 36

***22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye came.
23 And I will sanctify My great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances, and do them. ***

I do not think that secular Zionists had any sort of turning to the Holy One…

Look at the demographic trends in Israel and the Jewish world today: The religious Jews are having FAR more children per family- in Israel as well as elsewhere. And while others are unfortunately assimilating and intermarrying, we aren’t. At the same time, there are many newly-religious Jews as well.

My guess is that within just one more generation, an outright majority of the Jews will live in Israel, and a majority will be religious.

As far as your questions, I was on Kibbutz Hagoshrim…

I love it there. We just went rafting at HaGoshrim 3 weeks ago.

The Shabbat dinners were the most remarkable. White table cloths on the dining tables, candle lit. There was a **tangible peace **that settled over the kibbutz on Shabbat, eventhough most were secular Jews.

Apropos of what you wrote above, you should know that there is a real move within many of these secular kibbutzim to explore their Judaism- like never before. While their parents and grandparents threw off the yoke of Heaven, they are slowly beginning to come back. There are even synagogues opening up- and people attending sometimes.

G-d works in mysterious ways.

Thus, everything that accompanied the outbreak of the Lebanon war several years ago from both sides of the border was very disturbing to me.

It was to everyone. My settlement, like many others, took in hundreds of people from the north. We hosted them, fed them, ran a special summer camp for their kids, and more. My sister, in one of the suburbs, had a family from the north living in her house for a month. I think they’re still in touch. Pity that this is what it takes to get us to unite.

I do not think I have ever eaten any better tasting vegetables, than when I lived in Israel.

EVERYONE

says that. It’s true. G-d has blessed us as He promised.

My humorous ride in an ambulance after taking the garbage out to the dumpster and being scratched by a cat is memorable.
We must have stopped at two or three medical clinics making sure that I did not have as they said, “Rabbi”. Finally, a doctor saw me, and said you to me, " You can not get rabies from a cat scratching you". Well, I knew that, but they insisted I be treated for Rabbi, and two beautiful angelic nurses from the hospital made sure of it.

I really appreciated the fact that Muslims, Christians and Jews all seemed to live peaceably in Haifa.

One day, G-d willing, it will be everywhere.

Seeing a shepherd with his staff and his sheep coming down Mt.Carmel one day, while passing Israeli children as they were happily running around on their playground remains a vivid memory to me to this day.

Where I live, that is what we see all the time.

There are so many wonderful and positive experiences in living in Israel. The biblical sights and other points of interest were great, but frankly, I enjoyed my conversations with the Jewish people, Muslim Arabs, and Christians even more.

Completely understood.

I truly wish that all faiths could live in peace in Israel. That we would choose to cross over our religious differences, and unlike Cain, say that we are indeed, our brother’s keeper.

This is part of our messianic vision.

 

[YKohen]

Actually, reasoning about the scriptures reveals that. Though I am not sure if the Book of Daniel is in the Torah?

[BIBLEDRB]Daniel 9:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

Again, a mistranslation- and more, that lead to a misinterpretation:

The word in the original Hebrew is משיח- “moshiach”, which means “anointed”. It is used throughout the Torah for anyone who is annointed- even things that are annointed (see, for instance, 2 Samuel Chapter 1:21). Compare that with other anointed of G-d in the same chapter (verses 14 and 16)!

Leaving that aside:

Daniel 9
**26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and there is none for him; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.’**

This whole prophesy came to fruition long ago:

Daniel 9 is traditionally interpreted by Rashi as foretelling events that will happen regarding the end of the Babylonian exile and the rebuilding of the Second Temple along with the Roman invasion. Rashi explains that the phrase “Seventy weeks”, in verse 24, refers to seventy times seven years, or 490 years. “This refers to the seventy years of exile that have passed from the Destruction of the First Temple until this vision, and the entire 420 year period of the Second Temple.”

Jewish exegetes interpret the first “anointed” as Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) whose decree to rebuild Jerusalem came forty-nine years after the destruction of the city and the Temple, which is the time when an “anointed one” (Daniel 9:25) is to come to fulfill the prophecy (586-49=537 BC). It follows that the second segment of the Seventy Weeks period, sixty-two weeks long, covered by verse 26, culminates in 103 BC (586-49-434=103 BC) and that “after sixty-two weeks an anointed one shall be cut off.” This “anointed one” would thus have been the High Priest Alexander Yannai (103-76 BC) who came to power just at the end of the sixty-two week period in 103 BC and was the last of the important Hasmonean leaders. The phrase “after sixty-two weeks” indicates the time frame during which the “anointed one shall be cut off,” that is, suffer “excision” (karet). The penalty accompanying karet is here aptly described as “to have nothing,” or “be no more.” This punishment is given to Alexander Yannai, infamous for his unjust, tyrannical, and bloody rule. He is notorious for his open violent animosity against the Pharisees and his brazen rejection of the Oral Law. For example, Josephus records that Alexander Yannai fought against the Pharisees for six years, “and . . . slew no fewer than fifty thousand of them” (Jewish Antiquities XIII. 13. 5. [373]). He also “ordered some eight hundred of the Jews to be crucified, and slaughtered their children and wives before the eyes of the still living wretches” (Jewish Antiquities XIII. 14. 2. [380]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_seventy_weeks#Judaism

The messiah will come, get killed, and then there will be desolation at the end of time…

Look at verse 26:

וְאַחֲרֵי הַשָּׁבֻעִים שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם, יִכָּרֵת מָשִׁיחַ וְאֵין לוֹ​

And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and there is none for him…

“And there is none for him” cannot refer to Jesus’ situation at or after death, if one takes the New Testament seriously. Christianity claims that unlike mere mortal bodies which decay after death, Jesus rose bodily into heaven, where he sits at the “right hand of the throne of the Majesty.”

“And there is none for him” certainly could not refer to a lack of wealth or followers, for this would not distinguish Jesus from the great majority of the world’s population. One who has nothing does not receive “a portion with the great” (Isaiah 53:12), does not rise bodily to heaven (Acts 1:9), and does not sit at the “right hand of the throne of the Majesty” (Hebrews 8:1). It is precisely with his death that Jesus was allegedly able to attain his rewards (Philippians 2: 8-9). Therefore, the application of both verses to Jesus is untenable.

 

[InJesusItrust]

So I take it that the idea that there is a messiah in Judaism is debatable? Since there are many anointed ones? How can you tell when it is referring to the messiah? Doesn’t “messiah” mean the anointed?

Jesus completely emptied Himself. Because He humbled Himself greatly God raised Him to His right hand. How can you say His passion did not fit those words that there is none for Him? He was humiliated, tortured, forsaken because He refused to take back His statement of being the Son of God. It did not matter how many great, miraculous and merciful works He did, the Jews refused to see. He died for the truth. How would someone describe a righteous man suffering this injustice?

 

[Kaninchen]

So I take it that the idea that there is a messiah in Judaism is debatable? Since there are many anointed ones?

Jesus completely emptied Himself. Because He humbled Himself greatly God raised Him to His right hand. How can you say His passion did not fit those words that there is none for Him?

As I suggested in an earlier response, you’re looking for Jewish answers to questions that are rooted in Christian perspectives.

Perhaps you should consider the links I gave to the Jewish understanding of ‘Messiah’?

Meanwhile, since we don’t accept the New Testament as scripture, an answer to your second paragraph is in the world of ‘literary criticism’ (like discussing the character of ‘Hamlet’ or ‘Othello’).

 

[YKohen]

So I take it that the idea that there is a messiah in Judaism is debatable?

Nope- just the sequence of events and timing in the messianic era.

Since there are many anointed ones? How can you tell when it is referring to the messiah? Doesn’t “messiah” mean the anointed?

I was just correcting a mistranslation in Daniel.

Jesus completely emptied Himself. Because He humbled Himself greatly God raised Him to His right hand. How can you say His passion did not fit those words that there is none for Him? He was humiliated, tortured, forsaken because He refused to take back His statement of being the Son of God. It did not matter how many great, miraculous and merciful works He did, the Jews refused to see. He died for the truth. How would someone describe a righteous man suffering this injustice?

I’m just saying that it doesn’t fit with the actual verses from the Jewish standpoint.

And for the 3rd time, I want to state that I think this thread, this issue, is contentious and does nothing to further building bridges between us. Having to explain what we believe and why we believe it will necessarily cause strife because of our disagreement.

Ultimately, we’ll just have to agree to disagree- until the messiah comes.

Hey- anyone else out there like hiking, rafting, scuba diving, swimming, or reading? Maybe these are less contentious issues on which we can agree.

 

[rinnie]

I honestly don’t understand how the Jews can reject Jesus as the Messiah. I mean, He fulfilled every single Old Testament prediction of what the Messiah would be like so He clearly is the Messiah. So why they reject Him as the Messiah I have no idea.

Here is something you may find interesting.

As it is written God gave them a spirit of stupor eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day.

This is a mystery to us to this day.

St Paul does state that some Jews should remain unable to recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

But he also says this: So I ask, have they stumbled to fall? By No means! But through their trepass salvation has come to the GENTLES so to make Israel jealous.

He also says For if their rejection means the reconciliation of he owrld what will thier ACCEPTANCE means but life from death?

If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump.

What do you think that means? Is he not saying that it was their rejection that brought us salvation, how much more of a blessing will it not be when they accept him.

Read about these branches is speaking about. Of course it was the Jews, and are we not the wild olive shoot that are grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive shoot.

But take notice here what he also says. This is to us! For if God did not spare the natural branches neither will he spare you.

Is God not telling us something here.

It reminds me personally how the Jews never accepted or wanted us the gentiles to be part of their faith.

But remember what St Paul says and even the others if they do not PERSIST in thier unbelief will be be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them AGAIN!

SO here is what St Paul is saying, when the Jews return to the fullness of the faith, the Church, and they will, they will be grafted back into what has always been, their own native root and the result will be doubly GRACED!

 

[mercytruth]

Note the sequence of events in the verses:

**Deuteronomy Chapter 30:

4 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee.
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.**

First G-d returns us to the land, then He multiplies us, and THEN He circumcises our hearts.

We see this elsewhere as well, for instance:

Ezekiel 37:

12 Therefore prophesy, and say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, O My people.
14 And I will put My spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land; and ye shall know that I the LORD have spoken, and performed it, saith the LORD.'

With the caveat:

Ezekiel 36

***22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye came.
23 And I will sanctify My great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances, and do them. ***

Look at the demographic trends in Israel and the Jewish world today: The religious Jews are having FAR more children per family- in Israel as well as elsewhere. And while others are unfortunately assimilating and intermarrying, we aren’t. At the same time, there are many newly-religious Jews as well.

My guess is that within just one more generation, an outright majority of the Jews will live in Israel, and a majority will be religious.

I love it there. We just went rafting at HaGoshrim 3 weeks ago.

Apropos of what you wrote above, you should know that there is a real move within many of these secular kibbutzim to explore their Judaism- like never before. While their parents and grandparents threw off the yoke of Heaven, they are slowly beginning to come back. There are even synagogues opening up- and people attending sometimes.

G-d works in mysterious ways.

It was to everyone. My settlement, like many others, took in hundreds of people from the north. We hosted them, fed them, ran a special summer camp for their kids, and more. My sister, in one of the suburbs, had a family from the north living in her house for a month. I think they’re still in touch. Pity that this is what it takes to get us to unite.

I do not think I have ever eaten any better tasting vegetables, than when I lived in Israel.

says that. It’s true. G-d has blessed us as He promised.



One day, G-d willing, it will be everywhere.

Where I live, that is what we see all the time.

Completely understood.

This is part of our messianic vision.

YKohen,

I do appreciate your reponses, but I don’t know if your quotation from Deut.30 was taken incontext. Instead of beginning with verse.4, should you not have started with verse 2?

"then, provided that you and your children return to the LORD, your G-d, and heed his voice with all your heart and all your soul, just as I now command you, the LORD your G-d, will change your lot; and taking pity on you, he will again gather you from all the nations wherein he has scattered you."

Your quotation from Ezekiel 37 could be speaking of a literal bodily resurrection, which is then followed by their regathering into the land. This is how the apostle Paul seemed to see it, and how some of the early church fathers of Christianity seemed to have understood it.

Your quotation from Ezekiel 36 could be speaking of a concurrent regathering ot G-d’s people to the land along with circumcism of their hearts.

Regardless of how each of us understand the regathering, I do see something of the hand of G-d in what has happened in your nation and to your people.

shalom

micah

 

[InJesusItrust]

Nope- just the sequence of events and timing in the messianic era.

I was just correcting a mistranslation in Daniel.

I’m just saying that it doesn’t fit with the actual verses from the Jewish standpoint.

And for the 3rd time, I want to state that I think this thread, this issue, is contentious and does nothing to further building bridges between us. Having to explain what we believe and why we believe it will necessarily cause strife because of our disagreement.

Ultimately, we’ll just have to agree to disagree- until the messiah comes.

Hey- anyone else out there like hiking, rafting, scuba diving, swimming, or reading? Maybe these are less contentious issues on which we can agree.

Agreed, I’ll drop it. My viewpoint is that scriptures describe both a suffering and victorious messiah, but that is just my point of view.

I like reading, but lately I have not had the time to read fiction. The last series of books I read was the Chronicles of Narnia. Children’s book, but the allegory is quite good.

 

[YKohen]

YKohen,

I do appreciate your reponses, but I don’t know if your quotation from Deut.30 was taken incontext. Instead of beginning with verse.4, should you not have started with verse 2?

"then, provided that you and your children return to the LORD, your G-d, and heed his voice with all your heart and all your soul, just as I now command you, the LORD your G-d, will change your lot; and taking pity on you, he will again gather you from all the nations wherein he has scattered you."

I actually debated that issue with myself before posting before. I never know how much detail to post and how much to hold off on. I don’t want to be too boring, but want to give the info that you want.

Preface: The Hebrew word לשוב; “lashuv”, has multiple meanings. Among them are to repent as well as to physically return (similar concepts, since repenting is to return to G-d). The word תשובה;“Teshuva” is, among other things, the act of repentance or return.

In any case, the way Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook explained it is like this:
***"Among the nations where the Lord your God has banished you, you will reflect on the situation. Then you will return up to the Lord your God… He will gather you from among the nations… and bring you to the land that your ancestors possessed.

“God will remove the barriers from your hearts… and you will repent and obey God, keeping all of His commandments… For you will return to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.”*** (Deut. 30:1-10)
Twice, the verse states that “you will return to God.” Is there a purpose to this repetition? A careful reading reveals a slight discrepancy between the two phrases.

After reflection in the exile, the Jewish people will return to the land of their fathers. Here the text says, “you will return up to God,” using the Hebrew word עד; “ad”.

After returning to the Land of Israel and God removes the barriers of their hearts, they will learn to fully love God and keep His commandments. This time the Torah says, “you will return to God,” using the preposition אל; “el”.

How are these two types of national return different? What is the difference between ad and el?

The first teshuvah is the physical return to their homeland, to their language, and to their national essence. This is returning “up to God” — approaching, but not fully attaining. Thus the Torah uses the preposition ad, indicating a state of ‘up to, but not included in the category’. This is a genuine yet incomplete repentance, obscured by many veils.

After this initial return, the Jewish people will merit divine assistance that “will remove the barriers from your hearts.” This will enable the people to achieve the second stage of return, a full, complete teshuvah, all the way “to God.” This is an all-embracing return to God “with all your heart and soul.”

I hope that’s sufficient.

Your quotation from Ezekiel 37 could be speaking of a literal bodily resurrection, which is then followed by their regathering into the land. This is how the apostle Paul seemed to see it, and how some of the early church fathers of Christianity seemed to have understood it.

In light of what we are seeing with our own eyes and what has happened in the past few generations, I personally think that it makes more sense to see it in the Auschwitz to Israel terms that I mentioned earlier.

Your quotation from Ezekiel 36 could be speaking of a concurrent regathering ot G-d’s people to the land along with circumcism of their hearts.

My point of citing this is that G-d isn’t returning us to the land of Israel because we deserve it, but rather for His own glory.

Regardless of how each of us understand the regathering, I do see something of the hand of G-d in what has happened in your nation and to your people.

I think that what is happening with the Jews; the return to Israel and re-establishment of the state, has presented the Church with a dilemma, and please correct me if I’m wrong.

We have a theological explanation of it, but the Church doesn’t seem to relate to it in those terms.

That do you think?