How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[mercytruth]

And you read Messiah into that?

Yes, the very last sentence of the Rabbi’s essay may have implied it.

More importantly, Ha-Shem’s name is in Metatron. Metatron is revealed as ‘an angel’ who appeared throughout the Tanak. Metatron is the upholder of the world. Metatron is the instrument of the Tanak. Metatron is seated at the right hand of Ha-Shem. Metatron was often confused with being equal to Ha-Shem, in addition to many other descriptions.

So many of these descriptions of Metatron are descriptions of the one in whom we describe as the Messiah, the Son of God. This is frankly why I think Christianity would do well in knowing something about this concept of Metatron from Judaism. I believe that Christianity needs to distinguish the identity of Metatron from Ha-Shem so as not to consider him equal with Ha-Shem, as apparently some of the Jewish sages did.

These are my own convictions, and not mainstream Christianity.

shalom

micah

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes, the very last sentence of the Rabbi’s essay may have implied it.

It’s a ‘stretch’, to say the least.

More importantly, Ha-Shem’s name is in Metatron. Metatron is revealed as ‘an angel’ who appeared throughout the Tanak. Metatron is the upholder of the world. Metatron is the instrument of the Tanak. Metatron is seated at the right hand of Ha-Shem. Metatron was often confused with being equal to Ha-Shem, in addition to many other descriptions.

So many of these descriptions of Metatron are descriptions of the one in whom we describe as the Messiah, the Son of God. This is frankly why I think Christianity would do well in knowing something about this concept of Metatron from Judaism. I believe that Christianity needs to distinguish the identity of Metatron from Ha-Shem so as not to consider him equal with Ha-Shem, as apparently some of the Jewish sages did.

These are my own convictions, and not mainstream Christianity.

shalom

micah

This seems to be a variant of what I call the ‘reading backwards/reading forwards’ problem that occurs when talking about Judaism and Christianity - the search for anything that might vaguely be about ‘Jesus’, except that in this variant it’s not the Tanakh, but mystical literature.

micah, people spend lifetimes trying to come to terms with this sort of thing and, since I’m fully convinced that God understood/understands the need for the male of the species to have a hobby, "Why not?’ I suppose.

 

[mercytruth]

It’s a ‘stretch’, to say the least.

This seems to be a variant of what I call the ‘reading backwards/reading forwards’ problem that occurs when talking about Judaism and Christianity - the search for anything that might vaguely be about ‘Jesus’, except that in this variant it’s not the Tanakh, but mystical literature.

micah, people spend lifetimes trying to come to terms with this sort of thing and, since I’m fully convinced that God understood/understands the need for the male of the species to have a hobby, "Why not?’ I suppose.

Actually, there are many references to Metatron from this article that are taken from the Tanakh, and many of these references were seen to represent the pre-incarnate Messiah within early Christianity.

(I do think your comment about the male needing to have a hobby is humorous).

shalom

micah

 

[Kaninchen]

Actually, there are many references to Metatron from this article that are taken from the Tanakh, and many of these references were seen to represent the pre-incarnate Messiah within early Christianity.

Oh, I think there may be all sorts of leads to some of the themes involved/invoked in the construction of early Christianity but, basically, that’s a set of Christian issues. To Christians, it’s finding Jesus in scripture/mystical writing, to Jews it’s constructing Jesus by finding anything vaguely useful and interpreting/reinterpreting.

 

[YKohen]

How would you explain Daniel’s son of man coming on the clouds? Is God a man?

“As my vision continued that night, I saw someone like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language worshiped him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed.” Daniel 7:13-14

Another mistranslation. The Aramaic is לֵהּ יִפְלְחוּן; “yiflechun”. The root of that is פלח- to serve.

Daniel 3:18 and 3:28 do contain a word translated as “worship” and it is NOT a form of that verb, but rather נִסְגֻּד; “nisgud”.

This is why in Arabic, which is closely related (same with Hebrew), the word “fellah” (plural “fellahin”) is a peasant farmer/agricultural worker; one who works or serves the soil.

This is also why in the Jewish marriage contract, a Ketuba, it says:

"הֲוִי לִי לְאִנְתּוּ כְּדַת מֹשֶׁה וְיִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֲנָא אֶפְלֹחַ​

וְאוֹקִיר וְאֵיזוֹן וַאֲפַרְנֵס יְתִיכִי לִיכִי כְּהִלְכוֹת גֻּבְרִין יְהוּדָאִין דְּפָֽלְחִין וּמוֹקְרִין וְזַנִין וּמְפַרְנְסִין לִנְשֵׁיהוֹן בְּקֻשְׁטָא…"

“Be thou my wife according to the law of Moses and of Israel, and I will work for, cherish, feed and [financially] support you, in the manner of all Jewish men who faithfully work for, cherish, feed and [financially] support their wives…”

 

[Kaninchen]

OH! No I Haven’t! / OH! Yes I Have!

 

[YKohen]

I am definitely with you there. Would you care to comment on the concept and/or identity of Metatron?

shalom

micah

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron

In general, this is far from central on our religious radar. We are more concerned with keeping the commandments, which is it itself a constant challenge.

 

[mercytruth]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron

In general, this is far from central on our religious radar. We are more concerned with keeping the commandments, which is it itself a constant challenge.

Yes, that is good. I was only asking because if you read my previous posts on this subject, you will read that many of the descriptions of Metatron within the article cited, are similar to the ones given to the pre-incarnate Messiah within early Christianity.

Shalom

micah

 

[InJesusItrust]

Another mistranslation. The Aramaic is לֵהּ יִפְלְחוּן; “yiflechun”. The root of that is פלח- to serve.

Daniel 3:18 and 3:28 do contain a word translated as “worship” and it is NOT a form of that verb, but rather נִסְגֻּד; “nisgud”.

This is why in Arabic, which is closely related (same with Hebrew), the word “fellah” (plural “fellahin”) is a peasant farmer/agricultural worker; one who works or serves the soil.

This is also why in the Jewish marriage contract, a Ketuba, it says:

"הֲוִי לִי לְאִנְתּוּ כְּדַת מֹשֶׁה וְיִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֲנָא אֶפְלֹחַ​

וְאוֹקִיר וְאֵיזוֹן וַאֲפַרְנֵס יְתִיכִי לִיכִי כְּהִלְכוֹת גֻּבְרִין יְהוּדָאִין דְּפָֽלְחִין וּמוֹקְרִין וְזַנִין וּמְפַרְנְסִין לִנְשֵׁיהוֹן בְּקֻשְׁטָא…"

“Be thou my wife according to the law of Moses and of Israel, and I will work for, cherish, feed and [financially] support you, in the manner of all Jewish men who faithfully work for, cherish, feed and [financially] support their wives…”

Why would God share His glory with any man, such as giving him an everlasting kingdom? I thought God was a jealous God who is called Lord for a reason.

Also what do you think about the Dead Sea Scrolls? grantjeffrey.com/article/article1.htm

 

[CrazyCarolus]

We’re on the same page here. In general, I’m not a fan of this type of thread. Nobody will convince anyone else who is here, and IMHO, nothing good can come of it. I much prefer to discuss issues where there can be agreement, cooperation, and bridge-building.

I agree, theological differences aside, there are many morality and social justice issues we can agree on, hey probably hobbies too. I also think threads like these can cause emotions to rise on both sides, and as you said, neither side will change their opinion.

With that said, I don’t have a problem at all with the Jewish opinion on the messiah being stated, because a lot of people are curious and it is interesting. Its just the debating that ensues from both sides of trying to convince the other one is unnecessary and a waste of time.

 

[YKohen]

Why would God share His glory with any man, such as giving him an everlasting kingdom? I thought God was a jealous God who is called Lord for a reason.

"The heavens are the heavens of the L-RD; but the earth hath He given to the children of men." (Psalms 115:16)

Is G-d giving up His glory for man? Of course not.

17 The dead praise not the L-RD, neither any that go down into silence;
18 But we will bless the L-RD from this time forth and for ever. Hallelujah.

And back to Daniel 7:

13 I was watching in night visions and behold! with the clouds of heaven, one like a man = someone, that is the annointed king (Rashi)] came; he came up to the One of Ancient Days, and they brought him before Him."
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language served him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey him.

This is the messianic era. It fits both linguistically as well as in light of the numerous other prophesies in the Torah.

Also what do you think about the Dead Sea Scrolls? grantjeffrey.com/article/article1.htm

The Essenes (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes ) were a strange, heterodox sect- far outside the mainstream. I took the family to Qumran a couple of years ago to learn more and see how they lived.

See dss.collections.imj.org.il/qumran_com for the scrolls themselves.

And:

The Essenes had an apocalyptic point of view, and they believed in a new kingdom of some kind coming; would this necessarily bring a new Messiah with it?

The idea that the coming kingdom is always to be accompanied by a Messianic figure is not entirely accurate for Judaism in this period. We hear of some groups, for example, who expect the coming change, but never mention a Messiah, or a Messianic figure at all, either as a deliverer figure, or as some sort of heavenly agent. So some forms of Judaism in this period don’t ever talk about a Messiah. At Qumran, on the other hand, among the Dead Sea Scrolls, we hear not of just one Messiah, but at least two Messiahs. Some of their writings talk about a Messiah of David that is a kind of kingly figure who will come to lead the war. But there’s also a Messiah of Aaron, a priestly figure, who will come to restore the Temple at Jerusalem to its proper purity and worship of God. In addition to these two major Messianic figures, we also hear of a prophet figure.

And in terms of the quest for the historical Jesus, what does the story of the Essenes tell us? What light does it cast on his life and times?

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and our growing knowledge of the Essene community that produced them, gives us one of the most important pieces of evidence for the diversity of Jewish life and thought in the time of Jesus. Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can’t be proven at all. But what the Essenes and the Qumran scrolls do show us is the kind of challenges that could be brought against some of the traditional lines of Jewish thought, and even the operation of the Temple itself. So if one of our perspectives is that there is this growing tension in Jerusalem, the Essenes are probably the best example of how radical that questioning of Temple life might become.

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/essenes.html

Bottom line: The group was way out there physically and spiritually, and just because they wrote something doesn’t mean it was true.

 

[YKohen]

I agree, theological differences aside, there are many morality and social justice issues we can agree on, hey probably hobbies too. I also think threads like these can cause emotions to rise on both sides, and as you said, neither side will change their opinion.

With that said, I don’t have a problem at all with the Jewish opinion on the messiah being stated, because a lot of people are curious and it is interesting. Its just the debating that ensues from both sides of trying to convince the other one is unnecessary and a waste of time.

Total agreement across the board.

 

[Kaninchen]

Its just the debating that ensues from both sides of trying to convince the other one is unnecessary and a waste of time.

Which is why I suggest that people look at threads we’ve done earlier.

To be fair, though, new people join the board full of enthusiasm - to put people straight on all sorts of things, not just telling Jews the ‘good news’ - and don’t realise that most things have been argued into the ground some time ago.

As with so many topics, there’s no ‘magic bullet’ answer that will convince ‘the other side’ but that is a lesson that people have to learn.

 

[KathleenGee]

YKohen…

Welcome!..I am an associate of www.hebrewcatholic.org comprised of devout Jews who discovered the Church in the Old Testament…and came to fulfillment in Christ…saying say they are now experiencing more fully being Jewish now than before. Some of them had to beg the Catholic clerics to baptize them as the Jews as such already have great faith in God.

There is also www.salvationisfromthejews.com, Roy Shoeman’s site. Very interesting.

The Hebrew Catholics also voice their need for greater communion and oneness with us that we study more our Jewish roots. They have a wonderful series on Israel and the Church.

I am also working with a Humanist Jewess, a wonderful lady, who is atheist. They blame religion for all the world’s troubles. She and her association hold on to their Jewish heritage…and they put their faith into the goodness of man…and education. What I am beginning to see is a need for seeing the divine at work in the human.

For me, it is Christ…God become Man…as atonement for sin, and to renew and restore us and through Him become adopted sons and daughters of the Lord. So as my friend sees a movement of this redemption of recognizing man’s goodness…and we share so many common sentiments…

What my Humanist Jewess seeks goodness at work in mankind, my perception is that this is in fact the Risen Lord Who draws ALL men up to Himself…

 

[YKohen]

YKohen…

Welcome!..I am an associate of www.hebrewcatholic.org comprised of devout Jews who discovered the Church in the Old Testament…and came to fulfillment in Christ…

With all due respect, if you were devout Jews, you wouldn’t be where you are now. The positions are mutually exclusive.

saying say they are now experiencing more fully being Jewish now than before

Before what? I would be curious to hear about your backgrounds; Jewish and general.

The Hebrew Catholics also voice their need for greater communion and oneness with us that we study more our Jewish roots. They have a wonderful series on Israel and the Church.

If you truly want to study your Jewish roots, then the only way to do so is with Jews; knowledgeable, traditional Jews. Otherwise, you’re not really studying your Jewish roots: You’re obfuscating.

I am also working with a Humanist Jewess, a wonderful lady, who is atheist. They blame religion for all the world’s troubles.

They always do- even global warming, traffic jams, and the grocery store running out of Heinz ketchup. Those who seek excuses will always find them.

For me, it is Christ…God become Man

For me, it’s just G-d; the ONE G-d- as per His Word in the Torah.

 

[504Katrin]

Looks like we will have to all respectfully agree to disagree for now.

But this is exactly what it’s all about, not only for now, but in general we wil disagree because we’re so different, and this is exactly what’s so intersting! We (or I) don’t want to argue for the sake of convincing someone of something, but to KNOW. This thread is sooooo much fun! I have hardly ever had so much fun since I’m on here This is exactly what I love doing! Getting different perspectives and point of views is what makes life so interesting and so enjoyable and so much fun!
It’s fascinating to see your way of thinking, because I often laugh out loud and consentingly nod as I CAN SEE where you’re coming from, and it all does make sense, but I also have my own perception of things. It’s fascinating. And it’s a way to learn and make incredible steps forward in our spiritual developments

 

[504Katrin]

With all due respect, if you were devout Jews, you wouldn’t be where you are now. The positions are mutually exclusive.

Before what? I would be curious to hear about your backgrounds; Jewish and general.

If you truly want to study your Jewish roots, then the only way to do so is with Jews; knowledgeable, traditional Jews. Otherwise, you’re not really studying your Jewish roots: You’re obfuscating.

They always do- even global warming, traffic jams, and the grocery store running out of Heinz ketchup. Those who seek excuses will always find them.

For me, it’s just G-d; the ONE G-d- as per His Word in the Torah.

Harsh words maybe but…the truth. Which led me to thinking…can a Jew lose his / her Jewish soul with baptism? Can a Jew lose his / her Jewish soul at all? Someone can reject his / her responsibility as a Jew by getting baptised, but can he cease being a Jew?

 

[meltzerboy]

With all due respect, if you were devout Jews, you wouldn’t be where you are now. The positions are mutually exclusive.

Before what? I would be curious to hear about your backgrounds; Jewish and general.

If you truly want to study your Jewish roots, then the only way to do so is with Jews; knowledgeable, traditional Jews. Otherwise, you’re not really studying your Jewish roots: You’re obfuscating.

They always do- even global warming, traffic jams, and the grocery store running out of Heinz ketchup. Those who seek excuses will always find them.

For me, it’s just G-d; the ONE G-d- as per His Word in the Torah.

I think you may have misunderstood what Kathleen is saying. She herself is not a Hebrew Catholic but she is involved with that organization. Further, when she mentions studying Jewish roots, I believe she means the Jewish roots of Catholicism. And finally, I did not interpret her expression of the G-d she worships as confrontational. I admit that sometimes it is difficult to define the tone and substance of what others mean here on CAF. It takes a little practice and becoming familiar with the person.

 

[YKohen]

But this is exactly what it’s all about, not only for now, but in general we wil disagree because we’re so different, and this is exactly what’s so intersting! We (or I) don’t want to argue for the sake of convincing someone of something, but to KNOW. This thread is sooooo much fun! I have hardly ever had so much fun since I’m on here This is exactly what I love doing! Getting different perspectives and point of views is what makes life so interesting and so enjoyable and so much fun!
It’s fascinating to see your way of thinking, because I often laugh out loud and consentingly nod as I CAN SEE where you’re coming from, and it all does make sense, but I also have my own perception of things. It’s fascinating. And it’s a way to learn and make incredible steps forward in our spiritual developments

On that level, I agree. That’s why I’m here in general. It’s just that this specific theological issue will necessarily go beyond looking at different views and becomes a touchy thing.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Before Jesus, God has always raised prophets and sent them to Jews and they have done many miracles. Do prophets still appear to Jews? The Catholic Church has saints and miracles that have continued till today. It’s almost as if God has shunned the Jews: He does not send signs to illuminate Judaism as His one true religion. What is the explanation for this?