How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[YKohen]

Harsh words maybe but…the truth. Which led me to thinking…can a Jew lose his / her Jewish soul with baptism? Can a Jew lose his / her Jewish soul at all? Someone can reject his / her responsibility as a Jew by getting baptised, but can he cease being a Jew?

There is a Jewish principle laid out by our sages that: “A Jew, even if he sins, remains a Jew”. The Torah tells us time and again that we are a nation (as opposed to a religion). But unlike modern-day nations, once a Jew, always a Jew- no matter what (sort of like a Catholic wedding ). Non-practicing Jews are just as “Jewish” as the greatest rabbis. Atheist Jews who transgress every commandment- even on purpose, are still Jews.

That having been said, as long as one remains an apostate (.i.e. joining a different group,no matter if it is Christian, Muslim, or other), one is not considered to be part of the Jewish community. A willing convert, whether formally or informally, forfeits his/her legal and social rights, which express a Jew’s belonging to the Jewish people.

However, if that person, or their descendants (if Jewish: any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion in full compliance with Jewish law) decide to “return” to Judaism and the Jews, they are accepted- no conversion required.

A few years ago I was abroad on business (so I wasn’t with my family), and for the Sabbath meals, I was invited to a family. They invite a very eclectic group every Sabbath, and I’m sure it’s always interesting. Mine was. In any case, one of the people there was a woman who had decided to convert to Judaism for whatever reason (I always wonder why someone would do that). She went through the whole lengthy process,and at the end, the rabbi asked about her maternal grandmother. Turns out that she was Jewish- so her mother was Jewish and so was she. So she didn’t have to convert at all- even though she was brought up in a different religion.

 

[YKohen]

I think you may have misunderstood what Kathleen is saying. She herself is not a Hebrew Catholic but she is involved with that organization…

I just got that impression because she wrote “I am an associate of www.hebrewcatholic.org comprised of devout Jews who discovered the Church in the Old Testament”…

 

[Kaninchen]

Before Jesus, God has always raised prophets and sent them to Jews and they have done many miracles. Do prophets still appear to Jews? The Catholic Church has saints and miracles that have continued till today. It’s almost as if God has shunned the Jews: He does not send signs to illuminate Judaism as His one true religion. What is the explanation for this?

The problem with this kind of question is that people tend to expect Jewish answers to Christian questions - questions that make sense to Christians but not Jews because the two religions don’t ‘work’ the same way. Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus and Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus.

The whole focus of Judaism is different and you have to come to terms with that before conversations will make some sense. Might I suggest that you have a look at Judaism 101, for example?

 

[YKohen]

Before Jesus, God has always raised prophets and sent them to Jews and they have done many miracles. Do prophets still appear to Jews? The Catholic Church has saints and miracles that have continued till today.

Other religions also claim that they have prophets. It doesn’t mean that they do. We believe that since the Temple was destroyed, there is no longer prophesy. G-d works His will through man and history without it now.

And we take Deuteronomy 18:20-22, like the rest of the Torah, very seriously:

1. But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’
2. And if thou say in thy heart: ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?’
3. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

It’s almost as if God has shunned the Jews: He does not send signs to illuminate Judaism as His one true religion. What is the explanation for this?

What could be a greater sign than the rebirth of the nation of Israel in its land? Has ANY nation ever been exiled to the 4 corners of the earth and survived intact- to return home?

Consider Ezekiel 37- in light of the Holocaust. And there are many more verses like this.

There is no greater sign than that. And it is unfolding before your eyes today; right now.

And see Zechariah Chapter 8.

 

[mercytruth]

Other religions also claim that they have prophets. It doesn’t mean that they do. We believe that since the Temple was destroyed, there is no longer prophesy. G-d works His will through man and history without it now.

And we take Deuteronomy 18:20-22, like the rest of the Torah, very seriously:

1. But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’
2. And if thou say in thy heart: ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?’
3. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

What could be a greater sign than the rebirth of the nation of Israel in its land? Has ANY nation ever been exiled to the 4 corners of the earth and survived intact- to return home?

Consider Ezekiel 37- in light of the Holocaust. And there are many more verses like this.

There is no greater sign than that. And it is unfolding before your eyes today; right now.

And see Zechariah Chapter 8.

The greatest bewilderment that I have with regard to the establishment of modern day Israel is that it was established by secular Jews who were aligned with agnostic/atheistic socialism/communism.

Even today there is an undercurrent of Freemasonry within the governmental structure of Israel. One might say that the principles of Judaism do not exclude Masonic philosophy, but from the Masonic perspective, all religious faiths are not discluded from it. Therefore, it is like saying one can not be Jewish and Christian in philosophical belief, but one can be Jewish and Masonic in belief.

There does appear to be a miracle in the re-gathering of Jewish people to Israel, but how much of it was ordained of G-d? Can we honestly say that the Orthodox Jews who are against Zionism are incorrect in their assumptions that the establishment of Israel will be by the Messiah and according to the Torah?

shalom

micah

 

[YKohen]

The greatest bewilderment that I have with regard to the establishment of modern day Israel is that it was established by secular Jews who were aligned with agnostic/atheistic socialism/communism.

G-d works in mysterious ways.

Even today there is an undercurrent of Freemasonry within the governmental structure of Israel…

I have no idea what you’re talking about here. I don’t think I ever met a Freemason, and I know nothing about them. Sorry.

There does appear to be a miracle in the re-gathering of Jewish people to Israel, but how much of it was ordained of G-d?

I would say all of it. How can anyone logically explain it in any other terms? And it fits in with Biblical prophesy perfectly- as we always believed it would.

Can we honestly say that the Orthodox Jews who are against Zionism are incorrect in their assumptions that the establishment of Israel will be by the Messiah and according to the Torah?

Not only can we say that, but we do. I say this as a strictly Orthodox Jew myself. Man is fallible,and Judaism (by this I mean traditional, Orthodox Judaism) isn’t monolithic. Some rabbis enthusiastically supported and support Zionism. Some didn’t- and don’t. So necessarily, some will find themselves on the right side of history, and some will find themselves on the wrong side.

But you should know that those who oppose Zionism are becoming fewer and fewer; even among the ultra-Orthodox. I debated a member of the small but vocal, anti-Zionist Neturei Karta group 12 years ago and he was forced to concede that the bulk of their ideological battle- a battle that they are losing, is within the ultra-Orthodox world.

If you want, I can show you tons of articles to this effect.

 

[mercytruth]

G-d works in mysterious ways.

I have no idea what you’re talking about here. I don’t think I ever met a Freemason, and I know nothing about them. Sorry.

I would say all of it. How can anyone logically explain it in any other terms? And it fits in with Biblical prophesy perfectly- as we always believed it would.

Not only can we say that, but we do. I say this as a strictly Orthodox Jew myself. Man is fallible,and Judaism (by this I mean traditional, Orthodox Judaism) isn’t monolithic. Some rabbis enthusiastically supported and support Zionism. Some didn’t- and don’t. So necessarily, some will find themselves on the right side of history, and some will find themselves on the wrong side.

But you should know that those who oppose Zionism are becoming fewer and fewer; even among the ultra-Orthodox. I debated a member of the small but vocal, anti-Zionist Neturei Karta group 12 years ago and he was forced to concede that the bulk of their ideological battle- a battle that they are losing, is within the ultra-Orthodox world.

If you want, I can show you tons of articles to this effect.

Here is a Masonic Lodge site that lists the various lodges in Israel with the Masonic symbol which is enclosed with the Star of David, the Christian cross, and the Muslim moon:

freemasonry.org.il/alllodges.html

Here is a list of suspected Freemasons of the world as reported by US News and World Report:
usnews.com/listings/freemasons/14-world-leaders

I would be interested in reading about the theological, or ideological differences between ultra-orthodox anti-Zionists and the other orthodox Jews who support Zionism.

Shalom

micah

 

[meltzerboy]

G-d works in mysterious ways.

I have no idea what you’re talking about here. I don’t think I ever met a Freemason, and I know nothing about them. Sorry.

I would say all of it. How can anyone logically explain it in any other terms? And it fits in with Biblical prophesy perfectly- as we always believed it would.

Not only can we say that, but we do. I say this as a strictly Orthodox Jew myself. Man is fallible,and Judaism (by this I mean traditional, Orthodox Judaism) isn’t monolithic. Some rabbis enthusiastically supported and support Zionism. Some didn’t- and don’t. So necessarily, some will find themselves on the right side of history, and some will find themselves on the wrong side.

But you should know that those who oppose Zionism are becoming fewer and fewer; even among the ultra-Orthodox. I debated a member of the small but vocal, anti-Zionist Neturei Karta group 12 years ago and he was forced to concede that the bulk of their ideological battle- a battle that they are losing, is within the ultra-Orthodox world.

If you want, I can show you tons of articles to this effect.

It is good to hear that the number of Orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism is decreasing.

 

[504Katrin]

So on the one hand genealogy goes through the father, but on the other hand whether you’re Jewish or not depends on the mother and not on the father? If a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father have a child together the child will not be Jewish?
Sorry if I’m not the brightest light bulb on here

 

[504Katrin]

There is a Jewish principle laid out by our sages that: “A Jew, even if he sins, remains a Jew”. The Torah tells us time and again that we are a nation (as opposed to a religion). But unlike modern-day nations, once a Jew, always a Jew- no matter what (sort of like a Catholic wedding ). Non-practicing Jews are just as “Jewish” as the greatest rabbis. Atheist Jews who transgress every commandment- even on purpose, are still Jews.

Yes, thank you for this very considerate comparison that I can understand
I also believe that you guys are a nation and not “only” a religion. If you ask me it was about time that you found your own country.

That having been said, as long as one remains an apostate (.i.e. joining a different group,no matter if it is Christian, Muslim, or other), one is not considered to be part of the Jewish community. A willing convert, whether formally or informally, forfeits his/her legal and social rights, which express a Jew’s belonging to the Jewish people.

However, if that person, or their descendants (if Jewish: any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion in full compliance with Jewish law) decide to “return” to Judaism and the Jews, they are accepted- no conversion required.

A few years ago I was abroad on business (so I wasn’t with my family), and for the Sabbath meals, I was invited to a family. They invite a very eclectic group every Sabbath, and I’m sure it’s always interesting. Mine was. In any case, one of the people there was a woman who had decided to convert to Judaism for whatever reason (I always wonder why someone would do that). She went through the whole lengthy process,and at the end, the rabbi asked about her maternal grandmother. Turns out that she was Jewish- so her mother was Jewish and so was she. So she didn’t have to convert at all- even though she was brought up in a different religion.

There are many reasons people might want to convert to Judaism. Some people have always been kindof rebels ever since they were kids that wanted to change the world to the better no matter what. You know that it’s not just a temparary phase of your childhood or puberty when you get in your thirties and you’r still the same way lol. So, some people might be able to see the beauty of the responsibilities that go with being Jewish, while for others it might be more of a burden, and for some it might very well be both of it… Actually, it should be both of it always, joy and a burden. If someone only finds joy or only believes it to be a burden, they aren’t quite serious or honest maybe, cause how could one experience one without the other? If that makes any sense, lol

 

[joe370]

So on the one hand genealogy goes through the father, but on the other hand whether you’re Jewish or not depends on the mother and not on the father? If a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father have a child together the child will not be Jewish?
Sorry if I’m not the brightest light bulb on here

Hey Katrin. As per the catholic church, it was through Mary’s virginal delivery of Jesus that Jesus became the legal son of Joseph by adoption.

Therefore Joseph, who was in the royal line of David, gave Jesus the legal title necessary to access the Davidic throne by adoption.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Meltzerboy…you are accurate in your perception of me.

And yes, the Hebrew Catholics would like us to study the Jewish roots of our faith more. I am very drawn to the Friday vigil with candles–with my own prayer shawl…and reflect on Scripture readings for our next Mass of the Resurrection…Every Sunday is the greatest feast in the Church, not Christmas or Easter…many Catholics not knowing this themselves…I found out in my training.

Yes, I would also say my humanist friend has some of that in her. She was surprised I had my two sons circumcised, my father recommended it. He was in seminary at beginning of WWII and greatly empathized with the European Jews and Slavs. He wanted us to always remember the Holocaust.

There are over 22 Jewish identities I learned from Hebrew Catholic, and yes, am glad the religious are pulling away from the Zionists.

 

[YKohen]

Here is a Masonic Lodge site that lists the various lodges in Israel with the Masonic symbol which is enclosed with the Star of David, the Christian cross, and the Muslim moon:

freemasonry.org.il/alllodges.html

Here is a list of suspected Freemasons of the world as reported by US News and World Report:
usnews.com/listings/freemasons/14-world-leaders

Since I knew absolutely nothing about Freemasonry, I looked it up, starting with Wikipedia, of course- to see what it is.

There are parts of it that sound like they could be good general principles, I suppose, but there are definitely issues that would be problematic for religious Jews, both on a practical level as well as on a philosophical/theological level.

In any case, I looked it up in Hebrew as well, and from a religious perspective, found almost nothing. What that means is that it isn’t enough of a phenomenon to even make the rabbis deal with it. I saw 1 article that said that Israel has around 3000 members (is that what they’re called? And because a Freemason wrote it, numbers could be exaggerated for all I know). Out of a population of around 8 million, that would mean 3 to 4 out of 10,000 Israelis is a member; not very significant at all.

As to the lodges in Israel: What immediately caught my eye was the languages of each Lodge. I would naturally expect Hebrew (or maybe Arabic) to be the language. But that isn’t the case. There are lodges in Spanish, English, French, Romanian, Russian, German, and even Turkish. This alone shows how non-mainstream it is here- and I don’t care how many lodges are listed: Out of the 3000 alleged members, what percentage are even Israeli and what percentage are foreigners?

In fact, there is a Wikipedia article in Hebrew on them (he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%94%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C: You can put it in Google Translate since you probably don’t understand), and see that the origins here were in fact from non-Jews like Robert Morris. Also see web.archive.org/web/20070708101023/http://www.oescal.org/2005/2005RobMorris.htm.

Interesting point is that according to their web site, the Grand Master is Nadim Mansour (an Arab), and “The Grand Lodge of the State of Israel was consecrated on October 20, 1953 at the Y.M.C.A. Hall in Jerusalem.”

I would be interested in reading about the theological, or ideological differences between ultra-orthodox anti-Zionists and the other orthodox Jews who support Zionism.

It all centers around this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Oaths

You may not be able to understand all of the parlance but you should get some sort of idea.

 

[Bezant]

So on the one hand genealogy goes through the father, but on the other hand whether you’re Jewish or not depends on the mother and not on the father?

As I understand it, that describes the traditional view – a child is born Jewish if his/her mother is Jewish. The customs and traditions particuar to a Jewish community (from Eastern Europe, North Africa, etc.) are traditonally passed from the father to his children.

If a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father have a child together the child will not be Jewish?

According to the traditional view, no, but some streams of Judaism will say yes depending on his/her upbringing. Furthermore, the way people choose to define themselves means the answers to this question will vary as well.

Sorry if I’m not the brightest light bulb on here

Please don’t feel ashamed as no question is a stupid question.

 

[504Katrin]

Hey Katrin. As per the catholic church, it was through Mary’s virginal delivery of Jesus that Jesus became the legal son of Joseph by adoption.

Therefore Joseph, who was in the royal line of David, gave Jesus the legal title necessary to access the Davidic throne by adoption.

Thank you for your explanation in regards to Jesus. But wouldn’t this also mean that Moses - adopted by the Pharao family - was an Egyptian?

 

[YKohen]

It is good to hear that the number of Orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism is decreasing.

It is rapidly becoming a huge non-issue. For instance, Neturei Karta has been completely marginalized- and even excommunicated, by many ultra-Orthodox groups.

There is now a special ultra-Orthodox combat unit in the IDF. When it started in 1999, it had 30 soldiers.10 years later it had over 1000- and was a fully-functioning battalion.

nahalharedi.org/index.php

I think I recently read that they could triple in size today if the IDF could absorb them.

Change across the board is happening within their societies- not revolutionary, but rather evolutionary.

 

[YKohen]

So on the one hand genealogy goes through the father, but on the other hand whether you’re Jewish or not depends on the mother and not on the father? If a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father have a child together the child will not be Jewish?
Sorry if I’m not the brightest light bulb on here

Not at all. Yes, this is the case. Jewish mother = Jewish child. Jewish father = the tribe/geneology.

My wife is ordering me to stop playing here (it’s coming up on 10:00 pm soon here in Israel), so I’ll have to pick up tomorrow.

Shalom for now.

 

[504Katrin]

As I understand it, that describes the traditional view – a child is born Jewish if his/her mother is Jewish. The customs and traditions particuar to a Jewish community (from Eastern Europe, North Africa, etc.) are traditonally passed from the father to his children.

According to the traditional view, no, but some streams of Judaism will say yes depending on his/her upbringing. Furthermore, the way people choose to define themselves means the answers to this question will vary as well.

Please don’t feel ashamed as no question is a stupid question.

Not at all. Yes, this is the case. Jewish mother = Jewish child. Jewish father = the tribe/geneology.

My wife is ordering me to stop playing here (it’s coming up on 10:00 pm soon here in Israel), so I’ll have to pick up tomorrow.

Shalom for now.

Thank you for your kind explanations.

My great grandparents had three kids, our mom and our aunt Maria, and uncle Jabob. The girls were baptised Catholic, and this carried on till present day, while uncle Jabob remained Jewish. So what does this mean, does this make me Jewish? All of them but my mom and uncle Jacob died before I was born, uncle Jacob died when I was a little kid. My parents are both diseased also, so there’s noone left I could ask

 

[mercytruth]

Since I knew absolutely nothing about Freemasonry, I looked it up, starting with Wikipedia, of course- to see what it is.

There are parts of it that sound like they could be good general principles, I suppose, but there are definitely issues that would be problematic for religious Jews, both on a practical level as well as on a philosophical/theological level.

In any case, I looked it up in Hebrew as well, and from a religious perspective, found almost nothing. What that means is that it isn’t enough of a phenomenon to even make the rabbis deal with it. I saw 1 article that said that Israel has around 3000 members (is that what they’re called? And because a Freemason wrote it, numbers could be exaggerated for all I know). Out of a population of around 8 million, that would mean 3 to 4 out of 10,000 Israelis is a member; not very significant at all.

As to the lodges in Israel: What immediately caught my eye was the languages of each Lodge. I would naturally expect Hebrew (or maybe Arabic) to be the language. But that isn’t the case. There are lodges in Spanish, English, French, Romanian, Russian, German, and even Turkish. This alone shows how non-mainstream it is here- and I don’t care how many lodges are listed: Out of the 3000 alleged members, what percentage are even Israeli and what percentage are foreigners?

In fact, there is a Wikipedia article in Hebrew on them (he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%94%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C: You can put it in Google Translate since you probably don’t understand), and see that the origins here were in fact from non-Jews like Robert Morris. Also see web.archive.org/web/20070708101023/http://www.oescal.org/2005/2005RobMorris.htm.

Interesting point is that according to their web site, the Grand Master is Nadim Mansour (an Arab), and “The Grand Lodge of the State of Israel was consecrated on October 20, 1953 at the Y.M.C.A. Hall in Jerusalem.”

It all centers around this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Oaths

You may not be able to understand all of the parlance but you should get some sort of idea.

I really appreciate your response to my questions.

With regard to the past differences between anti-Zionist Orthodox and non Orthodox, I found Chaim Potok’s novel, The Chosen to be my favorite novel by this author. I would recommend it to my fellow Catholic readers if they are interested in knowing something in a fictional way of this past difference of opinion within the Jewish community.

I’ll take a look at that website too.

Thanks again and shalom

micah

 

[meltzerboy]

I really appreciate your response to my questions.

With regard to the past differences between anti-Zionist Orthodox and non Orthodox, I found Chaim Potok’s novel, The Chosen to be my favorite novel by this author. I would recommend it to my fellow Catholic readers if they are interested in knowing something in a fictional way of this past difference of opinion within the Jewish community.

I’ll take a look at that website too.

Thanks again and shalom

micah

Orthodox Jewry comes in many varieties, as you may already know. I’ve found that the so-called Modern Orthodox Jews in the US are in favor of Zionism as are many of the Traditional (non-Hasidic) Orthodox. Among the Hasidic Haredi Orthodox, there is some division between the Lubavitch (pro-Zionist, for the most part) and Satmar (anti-Zionist). The latter is the rabbi in “The Chosen.” Then there are the non-Hasidic Haredi Jews (sometimes called ultra-Orthodox, but not a preferred term by them) who are largely anti-Zionist. I have no idea where Karaite Jews stand on the Zionist movement. I would guess, as strict “sola Torah” Jews, they are opposed to it. BTW, Conservative Jews are mainly in favor of Zionism, while Reform and Reconstructionist Jews are both split. However, the Reform Jews and Reconstructionist Jews who oppose Zionism do so not for religious reasons but for political ones.