How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

If the Jews in their misguided zeal killed true prophets of God (stoning them or sawing them in half), is it to much of a stretch to say that they could have killed the messiah of God in their misguided zeal?

Shalom InJesusITrust;

I don’t think it’s a stretch; not in the least bit. The Rabbis of the first century admitted to the baseless hatred that encompassed Jerusalem around Yeshua’s ministry, and up until the destruction of the Temple.

When coupled with Yeshua’s parables, and admonitions, it fits rather well.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[joe370]

]meltzerboy;9719247]Please re-read my post, joe. I’m not disagreeing with you, but rather asking YKohen for further clarification of the last verse.

In your last post you said:

What does “for he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors” mean? If Israel is the suffering servant, in the context of other verses from Isaiah, then Israel bore the sin of its people makes sense in that Israel was punished for its own transgressions.

Let’s look at that part of Isaiah:

"Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions
he was crushed for our iniquities
the punishment thatbrought us peace was on him
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

I attempted to read Isaiah that 53 verse in your context but it just doesn’t fit, for me anyway; not that I am saying you are wrong of course. I see the Mysterious figure taking up our pain, bearing the suffering of the people by being pierced for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; the very punishment on the Mysterious Figure brought us peace. By this mystey figure’s wounds we are healed. In spite of the fact that we all, like sheep, have gone astray, the Lord has still laid on this Mysterious Figure the iniquity of us all.
I thought I would go through each servant-related chapter, per post.

---

First, chapter 42 To me this is clearly Israel as the Servant of the Lord thus far:

18 “Hear, you deaf;
look, you blind, and see!
19 Who is blind but my servant,
and deaf like the messenger I send?
Who is blind like the one in covenant with me,
blind like the servant of the Lord?
20 You have seen many things, but you pay no attention;
your ears are open, but you do not listen.”
21 It pleased the Lord
for the sake of his righteousness
to make his law great and glorious.
22 But this is a people plundered and looted,
all of them trapped in pits
or hidden away in prisons.
They have become plunder,
with no one to rescue them;
they have been made loot,
with no one to say, “Send them back.”

23 Which of you will listen to this
or pay close attention in time to come?
24 Who handed Jacob over to become loot,
and Israel to the plunderers?
Was it not the Lord,
against whom we have sinned?
For they would not follow his ways;
they did not obey his law.
25 So he poured out on them his burning anger,
the violence of war.
It enveloped them in flames, yet they did not understand;
it consumed them, but they did not take it to heart…
“Remember these things, Jacob,
for you, Israel, are my servant.
I have made you, you are my servant;
Israel, I will not forget you.
22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist.
Return to me,
for I have redeemed you.”

23 Sing for joy, you heavens, for the Lord has done this;
shout aloud, you earth beneath.
Burst into song, you mountains,
you forests and all your trees,
for the Lord has redeemed Jacob,
he displays his glory in Israel.

Continuation…

 

[joe370]

Continuation of Chapter 42

Israel is still clearly the servant

18 “Hear, you deaf;
look, you blind, and see!
19 Who is blind but my servant,
and deaf like the messenger I send?
Who is blind like the one in covenant with me,
blind like the servant of the Lord?
20 You have seen many things, but you pay no attention;
your ears are open, but you do not listen.”
21 It pleased the Lord
for the sake of his righteousness
to make his law great and glorious.
22 But this is a people plundered and looted,
all of them trapped in pits
or hidden away in prisons.
They have become plunder,
with no one to rescue them;
they have been made loot,
with no one to say, “Send them back.”

23 Which of you will listen to this
or pay close attention in time to come?
24 Who handed Jacob over to become loot,
and Israel to the plunderers?
Was it not the Lord,
against whom we have sinned?
For they would not follow his ways;
they did not obey his law.
25 So he poured out on them his burning anger,
the violence of war.
It enveloped them in flames, yet they did not understand;
it consumed them, but they did not take it to heart…
“Remember these things, Jacob,
for you, Israel, are my servant.
I have made you, you are my servant;
Israel, I will not forget you.
22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist.
Return to me,
for I have redeemed you.”

23 Sing for joy, you heavens, for the Lord has done this;
shout aloud, you earth beneath.
Burst into song, you mountains,
you forests and all your trees,
for the Lord has redeemed Jacob,
he displays his glory in Israel.

 

[joe370]

Chapter 45

The Sevant Israel in this case too.

Israel the Chosen

44 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant,
Israel, whom I have chosen.
2 This is what the Lord says—
he who made you, who formed you in the womb,
and who will help you:
Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant,
Jeshurun,[a] whom I have chosen.
3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
4 They will spring up like grass in a meadow,
like poplar trees by flowing streams.
5 Some will say, ‘I belong to the Lord’;
others will call themselves by the name of Jacob;
still others will write on their hand, ‘The Lord’s,’
and will take the name Israel.

 

[joe370]

Chapter 48

The Lord redeems the servant Jacob (not the messianic servant)

“Listen to me, Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.

14 “Come together, all of you, and listen:
Which of the idols has foretold these things?
The Lord’s chosen ally
will carry out his purpose against Babylon;
his arm will be against the Babylonians.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
yes, I have called him.
I will bring him,
and he will succeed in his mission…

20 Leave Babylon,
flee from the Babylonians!
Announce this with shouts of joy
and proclaim it.
Send it out to the ends of the earth;
say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob.”
21 They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts;
he made water flow for them from the rock;
he split the rock
and water gushed out.

22 “There is no peace,” says the Lord, “for the wicked.”

 

[joe370]

**Chapter 49 Israel seems to be the sevant from vs 2 to 4
**
Listen to me, you islands;
hear this, you distant nations:
Before I was born the Lord called me;
from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.
2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me into a polished arrow
and concealed me in his quiver.
3 He said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
4 But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing at all.
Yet what is due me is in the Lord’s hand,
and my reward is with my God.”

**Messianic servant - Light to the Gentiles
**
5 And now the Lord says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am[a] honored in the eyes of the Lord
and my God has been my strength—
6 he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

7 This is what the Lord says—
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
“Kings will see you and stand up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the Lord, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

 

[joe370]

**Chpater 50

Isaiah 50

Israel’s Sin and the obedience to the messianic servant

**50 This is what the Lord says:

“Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce
with which I sent her away?
Or to which of my creditors
did I sell you?
Because of your sins you were sold;
because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.
2 When I came, why was there no one?
When I called, why was there no one to answer?
Was my arm too short to deliver you?
Do I lack the strength to rescue you?
By a mere rebuke I dry up the sea,
I turn rivers into a desert;
their fish rot for lack of water
and die of thirst.
3 I clothe the heavens with darkness
and make sackcloth its covering.”

4 The Sovereign Lord has given me a well-instructed tongue,
to know the word that sustains the weary.
He wakens me morning by morning,
wakens my ear to listen like one being instructed.
5 The Sovereign Lord has opened my ears;
I have not been rebellious,
I have not turned away.
6 I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.
7 Because the Sovereign Lord helps me,
I will not be disgraced.
Therefore have I set my face like flint,
and I know I will not be put to shame.
8 He who vindicates me is near.
Who then will bring charges against me?
Let us face each other!
Who is my accuser?
Let him confront me!
9 It is the Sovereign Lord who helps me.
Who will condemn me?
They will all wear out like a garment;
the moths will eat them up.

10 Who among you fears the Lord
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let the one who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the Lord
and rely on their God.
11 But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment.

 

[joe370]

Chapter 51 and 52 have to do with the cup of the Lord and Zion rejoicing respectively. God leads His people back from Babylon.

End of Chapter 52, leading into chapter 53
The Suffering and Glory of the Servant - Messiah in my opinion:
**
13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[c]—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,[d]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Continued…**

 

[joe370]

**The Suffering and Glory of the Servant. I just don’t see an application here for the House of David, Israel etc.:

Chapter 53

The Suffering and triumph of the Messianic servant of the Lord:**

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.**
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.**

 

[joe370]

YeshuaOrHaOlam;9718969]Shalom Portofino;
Good points; most of the time when dialoging with non believers of a Jewish background, I have found that the non-acceptance of Yeshua as Mashiach really comes down to these things; The Trinity, Yeshua as G-d Most High, and the concept of Hell.

Your take on Genesis 11 regarding the Trinity, where God says, "But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come,** let us go down **and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

By the way I am really enjoying your posts; learning a lot.

 

[meltzerboy]

**The Suffering and Glory of the Servant. I just don’t see an application here for the House of David, Israel etc.:

Chapter 53

The Suffering and triumph of the Messianic** servant of the Lord:

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.**
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.**

Well, that’s what I’m asking YKohen: how he explains the concluding passage, apart from its prior context as the suffering servant, Israel. I offer two possibilities for the initial verses and the middle passage, but not the final one. I mention Jesus as possibly the representative or distillation of Israel, the suffering servant. What is difficult to explain is Isaiah’s use of the same phrase, suffering servant, to refer to two distinctly different things: first the nation of Israel and then Jesus.

 

[joe370]

Well, that’s what I’m asking YKohen: how he explains the concluding passage, apart from its prior context as the suffering servant, Israel. I offer two possibilities for the initial verses and the middle passage, but not the final one. I mention Jesus as possibly the representative or distillation of Israel, the suffering servant. What is difficult to explain is Isaiah’s use of the same phrase, suffering servant, to refer to two distinctly different things: first the nation of Israel and then Jesus.

Not really in my humble opinion. Of course I am not an expert; not even close…just employing simple reasoning. The context of Israel as the servant, is always about God, depending on their disposition, helping them and redeeming the servant Israel, God’s first born son - Israel.

How will God help and redeem Israel (God’s servant)?

The suffering servant of Chapter 50 and 53. It’s pretty cool stuff…

For example:

**Chapter 49 Isaiah/Israel is the sevant from vs 2 to 4
**
Listen to me, you islands;
hear this, you distant nations:
Before I was born the Lord called me;
from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.
2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me into a polished arrow
and concealed me in his quiver.
3 He said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
4 But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing at all.
Yet what is due me is in the Lord’s hand,
and my reward is with my God.”

**Messianic servant - Light to the Gentiles
**
5 And now the Lord says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am[a] honored in the eyes of the Lord
and my God has been my strength—
6 he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

7 This is what the Lord says—
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
“Kings will see you and stand up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the Lord, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

 

[meltzerboy]

Not really in my humble opinion. Of course I am not an expert; not even close…just employing simple reasoning. The context of Israel as the servant, is always about God, depending on their disposition, helping them and redeeming the servant Israel, God’s first born son - Israel.

How will God help and redeem Israel (God’s servant)?

The suffering servant of Chapter 50 and 53. It’s pretty cool stuff…

For example:

**Chapter 49 Isaiah/Israel is the sevant from vs 2 to 4
**
Listen to me, you islands;
hear this, you distant nations:
Before I was born the Lord called me;
from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.
2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me into a polished arrow
and concealed me in his quiver.
3 He said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
4 But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing at all.
Yet what is due me is in the Lord’s hand,
and my reward is with my God.”

**Messianic servant - Light to the Gentiles
**
5 And now the Lord says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am[a] honored in the eyes of the Lord
and my God has been my strength—
6 he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

7 This is what the Lord says—
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
“Kings will see you and stand up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the Lord, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

So you’re saying Israel is G-d’s servant and Jesus is G-d’s suffering servant. Fair enough. Let’s see how YKohen answers this after Shabbat.

 

[joe370]

So you’re saying Israel is G-d’s servant and Jesus is G-d’s suffering servant. Fair enough. Let’s see how YKohen answers this after Shabbat.

Israel was the chosen people of God out of all the nations of the world (what an honor!!!), and God’s first earthly son and servant:

“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son…”

 

[joe370]

So you’re saying Israel is G-d’s servant and Jesus is G-d’s suffering servant. Fair enough. Let’s see how YKohen answers this after Shabbat.

Meltz, by the way I am not trying to change anyone’s mind; just having a fun debate… I really enjoy talking to you guys.

 

[KathleenGee]

Meltzerboy…I am so busy…doing alot of house repairs with sons while working…was reflecting on this thread last night before falling asleep…and remember working with an Orthodox Jew who loved to share about faith.

She showed me a pamphlet that was put out by Evangelicals on some select passages of Isaiah given to her husband…that made both of them think.

There is the suffering Israel to bring fruit to the Messiah…but there is also this image of the Suffering Servant Messiah…quite specific to an individual who will contradict the Marian Catholics’ “Three No’s” that Christ manifested to us: No to pride, power, and greed.

I look at Emperor Constantine, a pagan emperor who nevertheless, through a dream or vision, won victory by having the emblem of the cross on his warriors shields. He rebuilt many churches and gave Christianity legal status and made Sunday a day of rest. He lived a ruthless reign…that seems to come with the territory of being a temporal ruler.

Christ said His kingdom is not of this world, He suffered for the atonement of sin.

It is sin that causes all the problems in the world. When the movement of power comes in, truth among human relationships is the first tragedy and people fall into the “spin zone”, that further creates more falsehoods and destroys unity.

Also, 3 times there was attempts to build the old Temple. Justin the Apostate was determined to get it back up to defy Christians, and many unusual things happened, that the whole project was abandoned.

My pastor told us last year…with no slam against Judaism, that if the ancient Temple were ever to be built…‘oh my’…

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

Your take on Genesis 11 regarding the Trinity, where God says, "But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come,** let us go down **and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

By the way I am really enjoying your posts; learning a lot.

Shalom Joe,

Thank you for your kind words.

My basic take on the trinity, though not in accordance with Catholicism ( not here to argue or disrespect ), is that the G-d we encounter in the Old Testament, the G-d who spoke to Moshe at the burning bush, the G-d who led the Israelites out of captivity by a cloud and pillar of fire, the One who proclaimed, “I AM,” is none other than Yeshua Himself, before he walked the earth and became flesh.

He is the G-d of Israel, but not God Most High. However, one must be careful when saying this because, I still believe that Yeshua is “one” with the Father, that if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father, that He (Yeshua) was the One through whom creation became, etc, etc.

For more on how I came to this conclusion, I recommend reading anything by Margaret Barker, for starters. Very intriguing indeed.

May you have a Blessed day,

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

I think of Genesis…the forbidden fruit…to eat to become as gods…then there is the fruit of the tree of life…that the first couple did not eat…but could see it before them separated by Sword of Fire…as they left Eden.

There is manna from heaven…there is the Christ child placed in an animal feeder…to the Last Supper where He literally says to eat…

The Eucharist is the fruit from the Tree of Life, we made clean and incorporated into Him to make us able to receive Him.

 

[504Katrin]

Shalom Portofino;

Good points; most of the time when dialoging with non believers of a Jewish background, I have found that the non-acceptance of Yeshua as Mashiach really comes down to these things; The Trinity, Yeshua as G-d Most High, and the concept of Hell.

Now, not being Catholic, I can say that I don’t believe in any of these things, as I don’t believe they can be supported by scripture. It is also my belief that the earliest talmidim of Yeshua did not hold these things as true either.

I think a Hebraic study of the Brit Chadashah reveals that;

1. There is no concept of Trinity, as modern Christians define it, 3 persons in 1.
   2. Yeshua is always presented as following the Father’s will, not appropriating it himself, as if He were the Father.
2. Hell has been misrepresented, mistranslated, and misunderstood. See word studies on the Greek “aionion” which never meant “eternal” the way we understand it now.

It’s sad to see such confusion because, once my friends of Jewish background come to see these things, their distaste for Yeshua vanishes, and they actually show interest in learning more about Him.

Anyways, I’m rambling…

Shalom Aleichem!

Yes, on more occations than not he talked about the father, and didn’t say that he was the father. However, according to John 10:30 he said “I and the father are one”

( As an aside; I by no means intend to disrespect the Catholic faith, or my Catholic brothers and sisters with that last post; it is merely my voicing of my position )

Shalom

We know that :hug3:

 

[mercytruth]

Shalom Joe,

Thank you for your kind words.

My basic take on the trinity, though not in accordance with Catholicism ( not here to argue or disrespect ), is that the G-d we encounter in the Old Testament, the G-d who spoke to Moshe at the burning bush, the G-d who led the Israelites out of captivity by a cloud and pillar of fire, the One who proclaimed, “I AM,” is none other than Yeshua Himself, before he walked the earth and became flesh.

He is the G-d of Israel, but not God Most High. However, one must be careful when saying this because, I still believe that Yeshua is “one” with the Father, that if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father, that He (Yeshua) was the One through whom creation became, etc, etc.

For more on how I came to this conclusion, I recommend reading anything by Margaret Barker, for starters. Very intriguing indeed.

May you have a Blessed day,

Shalom Aleichem

You are reflecting the understanding of many of the early church fathers, who referred to these appearances as 'Christophanies/Theophanies. For "we know that no one has seen God at any time, the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him."

Central to this understanding is Deut.6:13 “** Thou shall fear the Lord thy God, and him only shall thou serve.”**

The Greek equivalents to the Hebrew words translated in this verse as fear, and serve as found in the Septuagint are phobe and latreuo, neither of which are applied to the Messiah, but rather to God the Father, at least in the NT.

The Greek word, ‘proskuneo’ is translated as worship quite often in reference to Jesus Christ in the NT, but in the Septuagint one can find Moses ‘worshiping’ (proskuneo0 his father-in-law. Or subjects of Kings David and King Solomon ‘worshiping’ (proskuneo) these kings. So this word is applied to human beings, to the Messiah and to God the Father, and it generally means bowing, making obeisance to those in authority.

I think we have similar understandings

shalom

micah