K
Kaninchen
Guest
As long as they’re not proselytizers I don’t mind.
- Status
J
joe370
Guest
Y
YeshuaOrHaOlam
Guest
Shalom;
This has been an interesting thread to follow; many of the exchanges and key points I have heard before, but it’s always interesting to see everyone’s different point of view.
If I may jump in though;
How does one reconcile the following information, coming from the position that Yeshua was not, the Great High Priest, or the prophesied Mashiach;
A passage in the Babylonian Talmud states:
This has been an interesting thread to follow; many of the exchanges and key points I have heard before, but it’s always interesting to see everyone’s different point of view.
If I may jump in though;
How does one reconcile the following information, coming from the position that Yeshua was not, the Great High Priest, or the prophesied Mashiach;
A passage in the Babylonian Talmud states:
See my following posts for continuation of the significance of these various events and their non occurrence.
Y
YeshuaOrHaOlam
Guest
The Miracle of the "Lot"
The first of these miracles concerns a random choosing of the “lot” which was cast on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). The lot chosen determined which of two goats would be “for the Lord” and which goat would be the “Azazel” or “scapegoat.” During the two hundred years before 30 CE, when the High Priest picked one of two stones, again this selection was governed by chance, and each year the priest would select a black stone as often as a white stone.
But for forty years in a row, beginning in 30 CE, the High Priest always picked the black stone. The odds against this happening are astronomical (2 to the 40th power). In other words, the chances of this occurring are 1 in approximately 5,479,548,800 or about 5.5 billion to one.
The lot for Azazel, the black stone, contrary to all the laws of chance, came up 40 times in a row from 30 to 70 AD. This was considered a dire event and signified something had fundamentally changed in the Yom Kippur ritual. This casting of lots is also accompanied by yet another miracle which is described next.
The first of these miracles concerns a random choosing of the “lot” which was cast on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). The lot chosen determined which of two goats would be “for the Lord” and which goat would be the “Azazel” or “scapegoat.” During the two hundred years before 30 CE, when the High Priest picked one of two stones, again this selection was governed by chance, and each year the priest would select a black stone as often as a white stone.
But for forty years in a row, beginning in 30 CE, the High Priest always picked the black stone. The odds against this happening are astronomical (2 to the 40th power). In other words, the chances of this occurring are 1 in approximately 5,479,548,800 or about 5.5 billion to one.
The lot for Azazel, the black stone, contrary to all the laws of chance, came up 40 times in a row from 30 to 70 AD. This was considered a dire event and signified something had fundamentally changed in the Yom Kippur ritual. This casting of lots is also accompanied by yet another miracle which is described next.
Y
YeshuaOrHaOlam
Guest
The Miracle of the Red Strip
The second miracle concerns the crimson strip or cloth tied to the Azazel goat. A portion of this red cloth was also removed from the goat and tied to the Temple door. Each year the red cloth on the Temple door turned white as if to signify the atonement of another Yom Kippur was acceptable to the Lord. This annual event happened until 30 CE when the cloth then remained crimson each year to the time of the Temple’s destruction.
This undoubtedly caused much stir and consternation among the Jews. This traditional practice is linked to Israel confessing its sins and ceremonially placing this nation’s sin upon the Azazel goat. The sin was then removed by this goat’s death. Sin was represented by the red color of the cloth (the color of blood). But the cloth remained crimson; that is, Israel’s sins were not being pardoned and “made white.”
As G-d told Israel through Isaiah the prophet:
‘‘Come, let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet [crimson], they shall be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as [white] wool’’ (Isaiah 1:18).
The yearly atonement achieved through the typical Yom Kippur observance was not being realized as expected.
Concerning the crimson strip, though not mentioned in the Scriptures, and long before 30 C.E., during the 40 years Simon the Righteous was High Priest, a crimson thread which was associated with his person always turned white when he entered the Temple’s innermost Holy of Holies. The people noticed this. Also, they noted that “the lot of the LORD” (the white lot) came up for 40 straight years during Simon’s priesthood.
They noticed that the “lot” picked by the priests after Simon would sometimes be black, and sometimes white, and that the crimson thread would sometimes turn white, and sometimes not.
The Jews came to believe that if the crimson thread turned white, that G-d approved of the Day of Atonement rituals and that Israel could be assured that God forgave their sins. But after 30 CE, the crimson thread never turned white again for 40 years, till the destruction of the Temple and the cessation of all Temple rituals.
What occurred in the year 30 CE to merit such a change at Yom Kippur? By some accounts, on April 5, 30 CE (i.e., on the 14th of Nisan, the day of the Passover sacrifice) the Messiah, Yeshua, was cut off from Israel, himself put to death as a sacrifice for sin. To this event there is a transference of the atonement now no longer achieved through the two goats as offered at Yom Kippur.
The second miracle concerns the crimson strip or cloth tied to the Azazel goat. A portion of this red cloth was also removed from the goat and tied to the Temple door. Each year the red cloth on the Temple door turned white as if to signify the atonement of another Yom Kippur was acceptable to the Lord. This annual event happened until 30 CE when the cloth then remained crimson each year to the time of the Temple’s destruction.
This undoubtedly caused much stir and consternation among the Jews. This traditional practice is linked to Israel confessing its sins and ceremonially placing this nation’s sin upon the Azazel goat. The sin was then removed by this goat’s death. Sin was represented by the red color of the cloth (the color of blood). But the cloth remained crimson; that is, Israel’s sins were not being pardoned and “made white.”
As G-d told Israel through Isaiah the prophet:
‘‘Come, let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet [crimson], they shall be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as [white] wool’’ (Isaiah 1:18).
The yearly atonement achieved through the typical Yom Kippur observance was not being realized as expected.
Concerning the crimson strip, though not mentioned in the Scriptures, and long before 30 C.E., during the 40 years Simon the Righteous was High Priest, a crimson thread which was associated with his person always turned white when he entered the Temple’s innermost Holy of Holies. The people noticed this. Also, they noted that “the lot of the LORD” (the white lot) came up for 40 straight years during Simon’s priesthood.
They noticed that the “lot” picked by the priests after Simon would sometimes be black, and sometimes white, and that the crimson thread would sometimes turn white, and sometimes not.
The Jews came to believe that if the crimson thread turned white, that G-d approved of the Day of Atonement rituals and that Israel could be assured that God forgave their sins. But after 30 CE, the crimson thread never turned white again for 40 years, till the destruction of the Temple and the cessation of all Temple rituals.
What occurred in the year 30 CE to merit such a change at Yom Kippur? By some accounts, on April 5, 30 CE (i.e., on the 14th of Nisan, the day of the Passover sacrifice) the Messiah, Yeshua, was cut off from Israel, himself put to death as a sacrifice for sin. To this event there is a transference of the atonement now no longer achieved through the two goats as offered at Yom Kippur.
Y
YeshuaOrHaOlam
Guest
The Miracle of the Temple Doors
The next miracle, which the Jewish authorities acknowledged, was that the Temple doors swung open every night of their own accord. This too occurred for forty years, beginning in 30 CE.
The leading Jewish authority of that time, Yohanan ben Zakkai, declared that this was a sign of impending doom, that the Temple itself would be destroyed.
The Jerusalem Talmud states:
"Said Rabban Yohanan Ben Zakkai to the Temple, ‘O Temple, why do you frighten us? We know that you will end up destroyed. For it has been said, ‘Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars’ " (Zechariah 11:1)’ (Sota 6:3).
Yohanan Ben Zakkai was the leader of the Jewish community during the time following the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, when the Jewish government was transferred to Jamnia, some thirty miles west of Jerusalem.
The evidence supported by the miracles described above suggests the Lord’s presence had departed from the Temple.
Striking in its poignancy, Yeshua stated, as recorded in the Brit Chadashah,
The next miracle, which the Jewish authorities acknowledged, was that the Temple doors swung open every night of their own accord. This too occurred for forty years, beginning in 30 CE.
The leading Jewish authority of that time, Yohanan ben Zakkai, declared that this was a sign of impending doom, that the Temple itself would be destroyed.
The Jerusalem Talmud states:
"Said Rabban Yohanan Ben Zakkai to the Temple, ‘O Temple, why do you frighten us? We know that you will end up destroyed. For it has been said, ‘Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars’ " (Zechariah 11:1)’ (Sota 6:3).
Yohanan Ben Zakkai was the leader of the Jewish community during the time following the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, when the Jewish government was transferred to Jamnia, some thirty miles west of Jerusalem.
The evidence supported by the miracles described above suggests the Lord’s presence had departed from the Temple.
Striking in its poignancy, Yeshua stated, as recorded in the Brit Chadashah,
Luke 13:31-35
Y
YeshuaOrHaOlam
Guest
The Miracle of the Temple Menorah
The fourth miracle was that the most important lamp of the seven candle-stick Menorah in the Temple went out, and would not shine. Every night for 40 years (over 12,500 nights in a row) the main lamp of the Temple lampstand (menorah) went out of its own accord no matter what attempts and precautions the priests took to safeguard against this event.
We are told in the Talmud that at dusk the lamps that were unlit in the daytime (the middle four lamps remained unlit, while the two eastern lamps normally stayed lit during the day) were to be re-lit from the flames of the western lamp (which was a lamp that was supposed to stay lit all the time it was like the ‘eternal’ flame that we see today in some national monuments).
"This ‘western lamp’ was to be kept lit at all times. For that reason, the priests kept extra reservoirs of olive oil and other implements in ready supply to make sure that the ‘western lamp’ (under all circumstances) would stay lit. But what happened in the forty years from the very year Messiah said the physical Temple would be destroyed?
Every night for forty years the western lamp went out, and this in spite of the priests each evening preparing in a special way the western lamp so that it would remain constantly burning all night.
The odds against the lamp continually going out are astronomical. Something out of the ordinary was going on. The “light” of the Menorah representing contact with God, His Spirit, and His Presence was now removed. This special demonstration occurred starting with the crucifixion of Yeshua.
The fourth miracle was that the most important lamp of the seven candle-stick Menorah in the Temple went out, and would not shine. Every night for 40 years (over 12,500 nights in a row) the main lamp of the Temple lampstand (menorah) went out of its own accord no matter what attempts and precautions the priests took to safeguard against this event.
We are told in the Talmud that at dusk the lamps that were unlit in the daytime (the middle four lamps remained unlit, while the two eastern lamps normally stayed lit during the day) were to be re-lit from the flames of the western lamp (which was a lamp that was supposed to stay lit all the time it was like the ‘eternal’ flame that we see today in some national monuments).
"This ‘western lamp’ was to be kept lit at all times. For that reason, the priests kept extra reservoirs of olive oil and other implements in ready supply to make sure that the ‘western lamp’ (under all circumstances) would stay lit. But what happened in the forty years from the very year Messiah said the physical Temple would be destroyed?
Every night for forty years the western lamp went out, and this in spite of the priests each evening preparing in a special way the western lamp so that it would remain constantly burning all night.
The odds against the lamp continually going out are astronomical. Something out of the ordinary was going on. The “light” of the Menorah representing contact with God, His Spirit, and His Presence was now removed. This special demonstration occurred starting with the crucifixion of Yeshua.
Y
YeshuaOrHaOlam
Guest
End explanation.
It seems hard to deny something drastic occurred in the year AD 30 to warrant such changes in the Yom Kippur sacrifice. My only question is this; can we simply toss it out as mere coincidence that all of this happened in the same year that Yeshua was crucified? All of these things which so intricately seem to match the description of Yeshua given in the Brit Chadashah, only a seeming coincidence?
Just some food for thought, my friends.
May peace find you, and may G-d Bless You.
Shalom.
It seems hard to deny something drastic occurred in the year AD 30 to warrant such changes in the Yom Kippur sacrifice. My only question is this; can we simply toss it out as mere coincidence that all of this happened in the same year that Yeshua was crucified? All of these things which so intricately seem to match the description of Yeshua given in the Brit Chadashah, only a seeming coincidence?
Just some food for thought, my friends.
May peace find you, and may G-d Bless You.
Shalom.
Y
YKohen
Guest
- They don’t even know the Talmud. As you can see from the above poster, they have to use an English version because they can’t read the original. And obviously, they can’t read the accompanying commentaries on the Talmud that explain the text either.
- They take a statement here and there- completely out of context, and then try to twist it into saying something that it doesn’t say.
- As anyne who does learn Talmud can tell you, much of it is a dialogue; discussions and arguments back and forth. Some are ultimately accepted as the correct meaning and some are rejected.
- The Talmud was compiled over hundreds of years; the Mishnah around 220 CE by Rabbi Yehudah haNasi, and the Gemara hundreds of years later (the Yerushalmi; Jerusalem Talmud, around 350-400 CE, and the Bavli; the Babylonian Talmud, around 500 CE). The rabbis all were aware of Christianity, and yet they didn’t convert. Obviously if they would have believed in it, they would have. And obviously, they didn’t say or mean what some try to claim they meant.
- As a Catholic, you can’t possibly believe in the concept of a “messianic” Jew. Either one is a Christian or one is not. And if you look at Church history, you will see that they went to great lengths to ensure that the lines were drawn clearly.
Please. Spare me. Jews died to uphold what they believed was the truth. It wasn’t about “traditions”.
First, Isaiah 49:3 specifically says that WE are the servant:
And He said unto me: 'Thou art My servant, Israel…
Now that we have established who the servant is- and who the servant isn’t, you need to try to understand the other verses in light of that.
Y
YKohen
Guest
Because you’re looking at Isaiah 53 without considering what preceded it in Isaiah:
- (44:1) “1 Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen”
- (44:2) “Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen”
- (49:3) “'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
- (52:13) “Behold My servant shall prosper,”
All concerning the house of Jacob specifically- and to the exclusion of anyone else.
M
mercytruth
Guest
I had used the same on another thread, until I learned that this phenomena did not soley occur during these forty years, but that it had occurred at other times prior. So, to be fair, it is not a proof.
I am more interested in knowing the commonality of our shared faiths, rather than trying to prove that Y’shua is the Messiah. They have already made it clear what they believe, so why persist?
shalom
micah
5
504Katrin
Guest
Shoulda / Coulda known this - lol.
In my opinion the term “Jews for Jesus” makes as much sense as trying to feed a steak to a bunny or something
M
mercytruth
Guest
When I listen to what you are stating, it is perfectly acceptable, eventhough I myself may have a dualistic approach to the interpretation. All the prophets, all the servants of God suffered for the transgressions of the people of Israel, including Y’shua (from my perspective)
This concept of redemptive suffering might have reached its ultimate zenith when the millions of Jews who lost their lives in the Holocaust and through their birthpangs of suffering brought forth the nation of Israel.
This concept of redemptive suffering on behalf of others is very central to Catholic teaching and explains the suffering of many of the saints of the Catholic church.
shalom
micah
J
joe370
Guest
Well, wonderful people who happened to be Jews, are now embracing Jesus…Let us all pray for unity!!! Jesus loves the Jewish nation…
J
joe370
Guest
Isaiah 53:
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.**
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the **Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
**he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 **After he has suffered,
** he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
That is a man, not Israel…If you want to believe that that verse is referring to Israel, so be it my friend.
**
5
504Katrin
Guest
I personally believe that we’re not even supposed to have unity amongst our religions, but to be different.
But what’s the reason behind prayers for unity?
The only reason people pray for unity is that we all just don’t seem to be able to get along. People don’t “happen” to be Jewish, or Christian, for that matter imo. You’re chosen to be Jewish, you’re called to the Church by G-d. There’s need for a Jew to embrace Jesus. There’s no need for a Christian to follow some of the Torah rules anymore. We all just ‘happen’ to have different missions. We’re all here for a reason, which is to bring justice and peace to this world, each one of us to their own and best abilities that were given to us by G-d.
You need diversity in this world in order to bring peace amongst each other in the first place. However, the biggest irony in human mankind since the beginning of Adam and Eve lies in the fact that we’re all called to love each other, and to not do unto others what we would not have done unto us, and yet we fight each other on a regular basis somewhere on the planet each day. And since we just can’t seem to get along, some pray for unity. I personally don’t think (as explained above) that that’s the solution.
I
InJesusItrust
Guest
One of the links I gave links to Hebrew for each quote made in English. Why would the rabbi reference that if he couldn’t read it?
I kind of feel that it is the same way as dismissing Daniel’s “anointed one” to mean Cyrus when he did not die 483 years after the temple was rebuilt. It seems to be saying clearly that the messiah would be cut off. Even Isiah uses similar language.
Right. But if a wrong interpretation is accepted as truth and the true version as false where does that leave us apart from following tradition? What is to say that the suffering messiah just became unpopular?
Unless they have already discounted Jesus due to faulty misunderstandings like Him not being of King David and expecting a future suffering messiah.
Right. They are Christian Jews rather than Christian Gentiles. The first Christians were Jews too. This is the testimony of Jews who know more about the Talmud than I do, and they claim that Jesus was the messiah and that a suffering messiah is not totally foreign to Judaism. Like I said, the dead sea scrolls also show that it is not an alien concept to Jews all the way back then.
I come from a Hindu family. Many don’t even know why they believe in worshiping idols like gods, and they are not willing to reason with their own scriptures. Just the suggestion that they should try reading the bible or praying to Jesus to reveal Himself to them is almost impossible, because they want to follow their ancestors. They would die for their beliefs too, but not because they have considered other beliefs, but because they were born in the culture that pounds into their heads that everything is God.
How can Israel die for the sins of other nations? Doesn’t God punish each nation for its own inequity? Sounds like a Christian concept to me;
Y
YKohen
Guest
Isaiah 53:
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.**
9 He was assigned a grave** with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the **Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
**he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 **After he has suffered,
** he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
That is a man, not Israel…If you want to believe that that verse is referring to Israel, so be it my friend.
Again:
I’m just quoting the verses verbatim- and they all are concerning the house of Jacob specifically- and to the exclusion of anyone else.Code:(44:1) “1 Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen” (44:2) “Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen” (49:3) "'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified." (52:13) “Behold My servant shall prosper,”
There are numerous times in the Torah where we are referred to in the singular. Like when we camped at Mt. Sinai (Exodux 19:2), it says: " וַיִּחַן-שָׁם יִשְׂרָאֵל, נֶגֶד הָהָר.": “and there Israel encamped before the mount.”
The word “vayichan” is the singular.
Same here, where it explicitly, and repeatedly, talks of the nation of Israel; G-d’s servant.
5
504Katrin
Guest
I forgot the “no” :doh2:
it of course needs to read
There’s no need for a Jew to embrace Jesus. There’s no need for a Christian to follow some of the Torah rules anymore
written with little time, and I just got back on here…
Y
YKohen
Guest
What rabbi?
I’ll have to deal with this next week. I’m running out of time before the Sabbath. Please remind me.
Sometimes there is complete agreement. This is one case where it is completely self-evident: Isaiah is talking about Israel- and nobody else throughout. If someone wants to come along and say that suddenly in chapter 53 it’s a different servant, then how would they deal with the numerous other previous verses where it is so explicit?
It was never an issue. The Bible states explicitly that the messiah must be from King David- and Jesus wasn’t, and that the messiah must accomplish certain things- which he didn’t.
The person before was trying to prove from Talmudic statements that Jesus is the messiah. Pretty unbelieveable.
Again, these Jews know nothing about the Talmud. And again, had the Talmud said as they claimed in the manner in which they claimed, then why did the rabbis of the Talmud who said those things not convert?
They didn’t.
And the Dead Sea Scrolls were not from a mainstream group. They were from a small, extreme sect called the Essenes, and they disappeared.
Judaism isn’t Hinduism. We literally analyze every letter in the Torah in trying to understand properly, since after all, the Torah is G-d’s Word and G-d is perfect. There can’t even be extra letters in His Word. When there is any kind of seeming grammatical or linguistic deviation from what we would expect, it is debated and discussed- in every generation.
Have you ever considered the possibility that Christianity took this concept from Judaism?
I can explain further next week. Gotta run or else my wife will kill me.
Shabbat shalom!
- Status