How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[YKohen]

I do absolutely respect that, and will stop asking questions. I was just attempting to see things through your eyes… I think I understand now.

Peace my friend…

One point that I want to say again is that Judaism stresses the importance of this world; trying to live our lives now, observing commandments, doing good deeds for our fellow man (and woman), etc. We believe that if we do our part, G-d will do His sooner. If we don’t, then it will be later. But it will be.

You have no idea how much I have learned from you and others here- and hope to continue to do so. The more we all ask, the more we all learn- and grow.

Thank you so much.

 

[mercytruth]

Thanks! If it would have been a 3-word answer, I would have been worried.

So it seems that you and the early Church authorities are on 1 proverbial side in terms of your understanding, and the modern Church is on the other. I hope that doesn’t make you a heretic in their eyes.

And with what you wrote being the case:

How does the Church explain the modern state of Israel from a theological perspective?

Well, if it gets me in trouble, I will have to cling to the Tzaddikim. (Which is another teaching by an early church authority).

From a theological perspective I can not speak for the Catholic Church. They have stated that she represents spiritual Israel, and heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of us all, the bride of Messiah.

Somehow, I do not think that the Catholic Church can think of a national, physical Israel and Jerusalem coexisting with a spiritual Israel and heavenly Jerusalem. So I think it is a conundrum for the Catholic Church.

Hypothetically, I think of Isaiah 4:5-6 as the Shekinah glory of the LORD abiding over physical Zion as it was over the Israelites in the wilderness. She is the heavenly Jerusalem (so to speak) which one day will be abiding over restored earthly Jerusalem.

shalom

micah

 

[meltzerboy]

One point that I want to say again is that Judaism stresses the importance of this world; trying to live our lives now, observing commandments, doing good deeds for our fellow man (and woman), etc. We believe that if we do our part, G-d will do His sooner. If we don’t, then it will be later. But it will be.

You have no idea how much I have learned from you and others here- and hope to continue to do so. The more we all ask, the more we all learn- and grow.

Thank you so much.

Don’t forget the care of our pets! Jewish legend states they will testify in the heavenly tribunal regarding whether or not we took proper care of them.

 

[joe370]

Mercytruth
Somehow, I do not think that the Catholic Church can think of a national, physical Israel and Jerusalem coexisting with a spiritual Israel and heavenly Jerusalem. So I think it is a conundrum for the Catholic Church.

Well, we believe that Jesus is the Savior of everyone regardless of nationality. How is that different than what you believe about the Messiah? You do believe that the Messiah, as God’s representative, will come to be the redeemer of both Jew and Gentile - right?

 

[mercytruth]

Well, we believe that Jesus is the Savior of everyone regardless of nationality. How is that different than what you believe about the Messiah? You do believe that the Messiah, as God’s representative, will come to be the redeemer of both Jew and Gentile - right?

Yes, I do. It has more to with eschatology, and interpretation of the Tanakh. How are the prophecies of the Tanakh fulfilled? Are we to assume that the prophecies regarding ‘Israel’ are speaking of ‘spiritual Israel’, that is, the Church? Or, are they speaking of national Israel? Or, are they speaking of both?

God’s peace

micah

 

[joe370]

Yes, I do. It has more to with eschatology, and interpretation of the Tanakh. How are the prophecies of the Tanakh fulfilled? Are we to assume that the prophecies regarding ‘Israel’ are speaking of ‘spiritual Israel’, that is, the Church? Or, are they speaking of national Israel? Or, are they speaking of both?

God’s peace

micah

I think both.

 

[joe370]

One point that I want to say again is that Judaism stresses the importance of this world; trying to live our lives now, observing commandments, doing good deeds for our fellow man (and woman), etc. We believe that if we do our part, G-d will do His sooner. If we don’t, then it will be later. But it will be.

You have no idea how much I have learned from you and others here- and hope to continue to do so. The more we all ask, the more we all learn- and grow.

Thank you so much.

I have learned a lot from you too, as well as from others here at CAF. The following is a pretty cool site; it’s called catholics for Israel; I think you will like it…

catholicsforisrael.com/en/home

 

[YKohen]

Don’t forget the care of our pets! Jewish legend states they will testify in the heavenly tribunal regarding whether or not we took proper care of them.

Seriously? Where is that from?

I know that according to Jewish law, we are required to treat our animals properly, feed them before feeding ourselves, etc., but that, I never heard.

 

[YKohen]

I have learned a lot from you too, as well as from others here at CAF. The following is a pretty cool site; it’s called catholics for Israel; I think you will like it…

catholicsforisrael.com/en/home

Cool. Thanks!

I found this one:

ptwf.org/

The head guy is Jewish:

ptwf.org/Galleries/StGregoryTheGreat.htm

And he is single-handedly trying to show the world that Pope Pius XII saved far more Jews during the Holocaust than everyone else combined:

ptwf.org/Projects/Education/Pope%20Pius%20XII.htm

The amount of information on the site is beyond huge, and they have other projects as well.

ptwf.org/Projects/Education/

Good night to all from Israel.

 

[mercytruth]

I think both.

Generally, when looking at the prophecies of the Tanakh, I think it would be wise to interpret ‘Israel’ as being national Israel. The nations, or goyim as nonJews.

Secondly, if particular prophecies regarding national Israel have not been fulfilled, then I think it is wise to assume that some day national Israel will fulfill them.

For examples, Zech 8:23:

Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you

Zechariah 14:16-17

**Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. **

God’s peace

micah

 

[joe370]

Generally, when looking at the prophecies of the Tanakh, I think it would be wise to interpret ‘Israel’ as being national Israel. The nations, or goyim as nonJews.

Secondly, if particular prophecies regarding national Israel have not been fulfilled, then I think it is wise to assume that some day national Israel will fulfill them.

For examples, Zech 8:23:

Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you

Zechariah 14:16-17

**Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. **

God’s peace

micah

Gonna be kind of hard for every family in the world, year after year, to make that trek to the holy land.

 

[joe370]

mercytruth
For examples, Zech 8:23:

This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you

I always assumed that this was their return from Babylonian captivity. Below we see many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities entreating the Lord and seeking the Lord Almighty, for God was in the Temple at that time.

"Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak** in his own language. **And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” Acts 2

 

[joe370]

Generally, when looking at the prophecies of the Tanakh, I think it would be wise to interpret ‘Israel’ as being national Israel. The nations, or goyim as nonJews.

Secondly, if particular prophecies regarding national Israel have not been fulfilled, then I think it is wise to assume that some day national Israel will fulfill them.

God’s peace

micah

I was just wondering why our Jewish brothers and sisters are expecting a Messiah that will not be considered the almighty Lord, God?

OT Prophecy regarding the Messiah being God:

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Is 9:6)

"Behold, the days are coming," SAYS THE LORD, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD our righteousness. Jer 23:5-6

The midrash on Lamentations also attributes the name of God to the Messiah:

“What is the name of King Messiah? R. Abba b. Kahana said: His name is ‘the Lord’; as it is stated, and this is the name whereby he shall be called, the Lord is our righteousness.” (Lamentations Rabbah, I. 16. 51)

Are the Christian scriptures different than the Jewish scriptures regarding those verses?

 

[Kaninchen]

Are the Christian scriptures different than the Jewish scriptures regarding those verses?

You betcha.

For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler” – In token of abundant authority and of peace without limit upon David’s throne and kingdom, that it may be firmly established in justice and in equity now and evermore. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall bring this to pass.

It’s typical of how ‘throne names’ worked in the Ancient Middle East, by the way.

 

[Kaninchen]

I was just wondering why our Jewish brothers and sisters are expecting a Messiah that will not be considered the almighty Lord, God?

We keep telling you but you keep on asking the same question - I posted numerous links to ‘Messiah’ earlier on, for example.

If you keep on thinking that Judaism is like Christianity but without Jesus, it’s all going to remain a mystery to you. Judaism doesn’t work like Christianity, it doesn’t have the same paradigms.

Christians ‘need’ Jewish Scriptures as some kind of proof that a particular man was God, so the Tanakh is mined for any form of words that might, even vaguely, provide evidence for that. That’s a Christian problem, not a Jewish problem.

Since we have no such need, our Scriptures have a different purpose altogether. Messiah will come when Messiah comes, our purpose is to live out ethical monotheism day by day.

 

[504Katrin]

I was just wondering why our Jewish brothers and sisters are expecting a Messiah that will not be considered the almighty Lord, God?

OT Prophecy regarding the Messiah being God:

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Is 9:6)

"Behold, the days are coming," SAYS THE LORD, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD our righteousness. Jer 23:5-6

The midrash on Lamentations also attributes the name of God to the Messiah:

“What is the name of King Messiah? R. Abba b. Kahana said: His name is ‘the Lord’; as it is stated, and this is the name whereby he shall be called, the Lord is our righteousness.” (Lamentations Rabbah, I. 16. 51)

Are the Christian scriptures different than the Jewish scriptures regarding those verses?

OMG! Are you sure you aren’t doing him wrong? What did he do when everyone surrounded him and wanted to make him king and celebrate him? He left! He went away! He even left his disciples and nobody knew where he was. Never before and never after was he away for so long.

Looked up the situation I was trying to explain, it’s in John 6:15 "Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

 

[joe370]

We keep telling you but you keep on asking the same question - I posted numerous links to ‘Messiah’ earlier on, for example.

If you keep on thinking that Judaism is like Christianity but without Jesus, it’s all going to remain a mystery to you. Judaism doesn’t work like Christianity, it doesn’t have the same paradigms.

Christians ‘need’ Jewish Scriptures as some kind of proof that a particular man was God, so the Tanakh is mined for any form of words that might, even vaguely, provide evidence for that. That’s a Christian problem, not a Jewish problem.

Since we have no such need, our Scriptures have a different purpose altogether. Messiah will come when Messiah comes, our purpose is to live out ethical monotheism day by day.

Got it.

 

[joe370]

You betcha.

For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler” – In token of abundant authority and of peace without limit upon David’s throne and kingdom, that it may be firmly established in justice and in equity now and evermore. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall bring this to pass.

It’s typical of how ‘throne names’ worked in the Ancient Middle East, by the way.

If you are reading something else, regarding the messiah being God, then I can certainly understand why you believe what you believe.

 

[joe370]

OMG! Are you sure you aren’t doing him wrong? What did he do when everyone surrounded him and wanted to make him king and celebrate him? He left! He went away! He even left his disciples and nobody knew where he was. Never before and never after was he away for so long.

Looked up the situation I was trying to explain, it’s in John 6:15 "Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

Was this intended for me or someone else? I agree with you…

 

[mercytruth]

I always assumed that this was their return from Babylonian captivity. Below we see many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities entreating the Lord and seeking the Lord Almighty, for God was in the Temple at that time.

"Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak** in his own language. **And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” Acts 2

Good point, Joe, as far as it might pertain to the disciples of Jesus Christ whose hem the Gentile converts took hold of.

Otherwise, all the nations that you mention in your quotation from Acts 2 were not those who had come out of the captivity of Babylon. These were the Israelites, or Jewish converts who had travelled to Jerusalem from all parts of the known world to keep one of the three major feasts of the Torah. In this case it was Shavuot,or Pentecost.

(This was not a major trek for them).

God’s peace

micah