How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[mercytruth]

I was just wondering why our Jewish brothers and sisters are expecting a Messiah that will not be considered the almighty Lord, God?

OT Prophecy regarding the Messiah being God:

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Is 9:6)

"Behold, the days are coming," SAYS THE LORD, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD our righteousness. Jer 23:5-6

The midrash on Lamentations also attributes the name of God to the Messiah:

“What is the name of King Messiah? R. Abba b. Kahana said: His name is ‘the Lord’; as it is stated, and this is the name whereby he shall be called, the Lord is our righteousness.” (Lamentations Rabbah, I. 16. 51)

Are the Christian scriptures different than the Jewish scriptures regarding those verses?

There are a lot of Hebrew names that proclaim certain attributes of God. This does not mean that the individual who has such a name is God himself, but rather proclaiming a particular attribute of God. (Such as Elisha: God of supplication, Michael: Who is like God?)

In addition, the quotation you have quoted was often translated quite differently in the Jewish Septuagint. Several of the early church fathers quoted from the Jewish Septuagint which is translated this way: "and his name is called the Messenger (angelos) of great counsel"

Justin Martyr quotes the Isaiah 9:6 this way. Bishop Ireneaus quotes it a bit differently: “the messenger of great counsel of the Father”.

I would not necessarily make an issue of the name.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 does speak of the Messiah as the LORD our righteousness. Apparently, the Son of God who appeared to Lot as an angel of the LORD has the same sacred name as the Father. (Gen. 19:24). Exodus 23:21 states that the angel that goes before the Israelites as they enter the promise land is one who has the sacred name of God in him. And of course, Jesus said, 'before Abraham, I am". The sacred name of God is also the name Metatron was thought to have, though he was not to be considered equal with God.

I am not sure of which verse in Lamentations you are referring to. There is Lamentations 4:20 that is translated in various ways: "The breath of our mouth, Messiah the LORD, is taken in our sins: to whom we said: Under thy shadow we shall live among the Gentiles" (Douay Rheims)

This scripture was quoted by the early church fathers quite often as a Messianic verse,

God’s peace

micah

 

[InJesusItrust]

I did some digging, and it turns out that there was/is a concept of a suffering messiah in Jewish writings:

bethelnyc.org/the-suffering-messiah-in-jewish-sacred-writ

messianicfellowship.50webs.com/suffering.html

therefinersfire.org/rabbinical_revisionism.htm

If these are true I think I know why Jesus claimed that the Pharisees and Scribes shut up heaven to the Jewish people.

 

[joe370]

There are a lot of Hebrew names that proclaim certain attributes of God. This does not mean that the individual who has such a name is God himself, but rather proclaiming a particular attribute of God. (Such as Elisha: God of supplication, Michael: Who is like God?)

In addition, the quotation you have quoted was often translated quite differently in the Jewish Septuagint. Several of the early church fathers quoted from the Jewish Septuagint which is translated this way: "and his name is called the Messenger (angelos) of great counsel"

Justin Martyr quotes the Isaiah 9:6 this way. Bishop Ireneaus quotes it a bit differently: “the messenger of great counsel of the Father”.

I would not necessarily make an issue of the name.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 does speak of the Messiah as the LORD our righteousness. Apparently, the Son of God who appeared to Lot as an angel of the LORD has the same sacred name as the Father. (Gen. 19:24). Exodus 23:21 states that the angel that goes before the Israelites as they enter the promise land is one who has the sacred name of God in him. And of course, Jesus said, 'before Abraham, I am". The sacred name of God is also the name Metatron was thought to have, though he was not to be considered equal with God.

I am not sure of which verse in Lamentations you are referring to. There is Lamentations 4:20 that is translated in various ways: "The breath of our mouth, Messiah the LORD, is taken in our sins: to whom we said: Under thy shadow we shall live among the Gentiles" (Douay Rheims)

This scripture was quoted by the early church fathers quite often as a Messianic verse,

God’s peace

micah

I noticed that too about the Jewish Septuagint; also, that is a good point about Genesis 19:24. However, it does seem to suggest that the power to do such a thing comes from the the Lord of heaven:

“Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.”

The Masoretic translates it as:

For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom.

Any idea what -joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom means?

 

[meltzerboy]

Seriously? Where is that from?

I know that according to Jewish law, we are required to treat our animals properly, feed them before feeding ourselves, etc., but that, I never heard.

I’m almost certain I read this somewhere but I don’t have the source available. I found, however, that Islam believes this, so I guess it’s possible I confused the latter’s belief with that of Judaism.

 

[YKohen]

I did some digging, and it turns out that there was/is a concept of a suffering messiah in Jewish writings…

1. Those are all Christian sites. To learn about Catholic dogma, should I go to an Evangelical web site to learn?
2. Again, they base their arguments on mistranslations, misinterpretations, and taking things way out of context.
3. Had they not, then surely those rabbis would have become Christians; but they didn’t.

The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is obviously the same suffering servant of Isaiah 49:

**3 And He said unto me: 'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’

4 But I said: ‘I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought and vanity; yet surely my right is with the LORD, and my recompense with my God.’

5 And now saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, and that Israel be gathered unto Him–for I am honourable in the eyes of the LORD, and my God is become my strength–

6 Yea, He saith: ‘It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.’

7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to him who is despised of men, to him who is abhorred of nations, to a servant of rulers: kings shall see and arise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD that is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who hath chosen thee.

8 Thus saith the LORD: In an acceptable time have I answered thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to raise up the land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; **

 

[joe370]

I’m almost certain I read this somewhere but I don’t have the source available. I found, however, that Islam believes this, so I guess it’s possible I confused the latter’s belief with that of Judaism.

The Holy Scriptures — The Tanakh

Regarding Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom, I did a cursory look on-line and it seems to mean the following but my sources might not be trustworthy:

“For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.”

Compared to:

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Is 9:6)

 

[joe370]

The Holy Scriptures — The Tanakh

Regarding Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom, I did a cursory look on-line and it seems to mean the following but my sources might not be trustworthy:

“For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.”

Compared to:

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Is 9:6)

 

[joe370]

YKohen Those are all Christian sites. To learn about Catholic dogma, should I go to an Evangelical web site to learn?

That is true which is why I am sticking to Jewish sites such as the one I sent you, the one’s you sent me as well as the Jews for Jesus; I think that they are very honest folks. I am just out to find the truth, what ever the topic, regardless of the outcome, for truth is all that matters and that can be difficult when culling from the Web.

 

[meltzerboy]

The Holy Scriptures — The Tanakh

Regarding Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom, I did a cursory look on-line and it seems to mean the following but my sources might not be trustworthy:

“For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.”

Compared to:

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Is 9:6)

Joe, I’m talking about pets testifying on their owner’s behalf in heaven. What are YOU talking about? LOL

 

[joe370]

Joe, I’m talking about pets testifying on their owner’s behalf in heaven. What are YOU talking about? LOL

Oops, I apologize; I clicked on the wrong post. To be honest I have no knowledge regarding this particular topic so I will just bow out gracefully.

But, let me know your thoughts on my misplaced post when you get the chance?

 

[YKohen]

That is true which is why I am sticking to Jewish sites such as the one I sent you, the one’s you sent me as well as the Jews for Jesus; I think that they are very honest folks. I am just out to find the truth, what ever the topic, regardless of the outcome, for truth is all that matters and that can be difficult when culling from the Web.

Jews for Jesus mistranslate, misinterpret, and take verses out of context. Honesty? No idea. Intellectual honesty? Nope.

 

[JerBear_Meaux]

Well, we believe that Jesus is the Savior of everyone regardless of nationality. How is that different than what you believe about the Messiah? You do believe that the Messiah, as God’s representative, will come to be the redeemer of both Jew and Gentile - right?

I think that is probably a good point if jesus was not the messiah he couldnt believe in
the jewish messiah, but im also not sure that the jews actually believed in hell or the final revelation us christians do.

 

[Kaninchen]

I think that is probably a good point if jesus was not the messiah he couldnt believe in
the jewish messiah, but im also not sure that the jews actually believed in hell or the final revelation us christians do.

It’s a different eschatology.

As I’ve often said here, the genius of Christianity was to invent an illness (“You’re all doomed!”) and prescribe itself as the only cure.

 

[InJesusItrust]

1. Those are all Christian sites. To learn about Catholic dogma, should I go to an Evangelical web site to learn?
2. Again, they base their arguments on mistranslations, misinterpretations, and taking things way out of context.
3. Had they not, then surely those rabbis would have become Christians; but they didn’t.

The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is obviously the same suffering servant of Isaiah 49:

3 And He said unto me: 'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’

4 But I said: ‘I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought and vanity; yet surely my right is with the LORD, and my recompense with my God.’

5 And now saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, and that Israel be gathered unto Him–for I am honourable in the eyes of the LORD, and my God is become my strength–

6 Yea, He saith: ‘It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.’

7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to him who is despised of men, to him who is abhorred of nations, to a servant of rulers: kings shall see and arise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD that is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who hath chosen thee.

8 Thus saith the LORD: In an acceptable time have I answered thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to raise up the land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

They quote the Talmud. Obviously they are making the case they believe in, but they are Messianic Jews. If the Orthodox Jews are wrong would it make sense to ask the Orthodox Jews if they are right? Of course you would see what case those who disagree state. What is the context of those Talmudic quotes?

If the rabbis were brought up to ignore Jesus or think He was imaginary, why would they convert? In my experience very few people love the truth more than traditions.

I don’t see how Israel fits the suffering servant, especially being cut off from the land of the living. Israel was dispersed, never killed.

 

[joe370]

They quote the Talmud. Obviously they are making the case they believe in, but they are Messianic Jews. If the Orthodox Jews are wrong would it make sense to ask the Orthodox Jews if they are right? Of course you would see what case those who disagree state. What is the context of those Talmudic quotes?

If the rabbis were brought up to ignore Jesus or think He was imaginary, why would they convert?

I don’t see how Israel fits the suffering servant, especially being cut off from the land of the living. Israel was dispersed, never killed.

Good point and yes I have to agree with you on Isiah 53; that is the only way it makes sense, to me anyway…

 

[joe370]

It’s a different eschatology.

As I’ve often said here, the genius of Christianity was to invent an illness (“You’re all doomed!”) and prescribe itself as the only cure.

Correct me if I am wrong: our Jewish brothers and sisters do not believe in the hell?

 

[joe370]

Jews for Jesus mistranslate, misinterpret, and take verses out of context. Honesty? No idea. Intellectual honesty? Nope.

Hey YK, how can I know that it isn’t the other way around, seriously? Not you of course, but other online sites wholly dedicated to claiming that Jesus is not the long-awaited King; those Jewish sites that say the opposite of what the Jews for Jesus are saying?

These were Jewish folks from birth, who, via an epiphany of some sort, all of a sudden had a change of heart and converted to Christianity. It would seem like they would want the truth before giving up what they held so dear to them, that being Judaism.

 

[Kaninchen]

Correct me if I am wrong: our Jewish brothers and sisters do not believe in the hell?

Quite a complicated topic actually - here’s Judaism 101 on the subject.

We don’t believe in Original Sin, we don’t share the Christian concept of ‘salvation’ (people needing to be ‘saved from hell’) or that anybody is doomed for not believing as we do.

 

[Kaninchen]

Hey YK, how can I know that it isn’t the other way around, seriously? Not you of course, but other online sites wholly dedicated to claiming that Jesus is not the long-awaited King; those Jewish sites that say the opposite of what the Jews for Jesus are saying?

These were Jewish folks from birth, who, via an epiphany of some sort, all of a sudden had a change of heart and converted to Christianity. It would seem like they would want the truth before giving up what they held so dear to them, that being Judaism.

Jews for Jesus is a Protestant Evangelical group, some of whose members are from Jewish backgrounds, most are Christians who like a bit of Judaica in their lives.

 

[joe370]

Jews for Jesus is a Protestant Evangelical group, some of whose members are from Jewish backgrounds, most are Christians who like a bit of Judaica in their lives.

Ok, Your thoughts on catholics for Israel…?

catholicsforisrael.com/