How do "moderate" or "liberal" Muslims feel about Muslims leaving Islam?

[Sister_Amy]

But anyway, the question wasn’t about what I think, or what Sheikh Muhamamd Salih al-Munajjid says about Muslims leaving Islam.

The question was about how “moderate” or “liberal” or better described as “pseudo” Muslims feel.

 

[Jay53]

I don’t disagree with what the sheikh wrote. But sometimes that ruling does not apply. (Note, for instance, that he is in Saudi Arabia, and not the USA, where circumstances are drastically different.)

Am I to understand this to mean that killing an apostate is acceptable in Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia where sharia law has already been established, but not in the U.S, because it is not Islamic yet. But, once sharia law has been instituted it will then be acceptable?

(And I pray most fervently to Almighty God that this will NEVER EVER happen!!! )

 

[dzheremi]

I read that reply as meaning that because there is no war being waged against the Islamic state (since in the West the state is not Islamic to begin with), the sort of “apostasy = treason” situation that existed in early Islam is not the situation as it is now, so that reasoning for execution of apostates cannot hold in this context. Am I close, Sister Amy?

This makes sense, in a way, though it has some disturbing applications. Consider, if you will, the situation in 14th century Ethiopia, when there was open insurrection by the Ethiopian Muslims in an effort to destroy the Ethiopian Church and establish an Islamic country (not alongside, but in place of the Christian one that had been there since the 300s). It didn’t work out that way (Egziabher yemesegen!), but for the period before the rebellion was put down, a convert from the Church to Islam could most certainly be seen as a traitor both to the kingdom and to the faith, as they would be leaving one with the knowledge that they would be working to establish another in its place, which would follow the new (Islamic) order.

I do not know if such converts (who included the majority of what is now the single most numerous Ethnic group in the country, the Oromo; before this time, 9 out of 10 were Christian - with the coming of the Islamic insurrection, the same proportion were forced to convert to Islam) were killed by Christians during the course of the struggle, but it would not surprise me if they had been. There is, after all, a big difference between someone who changes their religion and goes on their own way versus one who changes their religion and then takes the sword to their former co-religionists, and in early Islam, this seems to have been something of an imperative.

 

[rtconstant]

The question was about how “moderate” or “liberal” or better described as “pseudo” Muslims feel.

Fair enough, though these “pseudo” Muslims are well loved whenever, more traditional Muslims are being called to task for immoral behavior. These pseudo-Muslims are also vital in Muslim relations with first world cultures.

 

[Jay53]

May Allah protect him and keep him safe, and reward him for all the work he does.

I didn’t say “no” and I didn’t say “yes,” but I said “Not necessarily.” The answer from the sheikh (hafidhahullah) is a good answer–one I’ve referred to myself a couple times.

What’s also important to understand is the role of apostasy in early Islam–that it isn’t just changing one’s faith or creed, but in actuality committing treason and going to war with the Muslims. In such a case, absolutely, the penalty is death.

But there are other scholars you can check with who also point out that sometimes leaving the religion of Islam is not that kind of apostasy, and especially without an Islamic state to commit treason against, the penalty of death doesn’t quite make sense.

I don’t disagree with what the sheikh wrote. But sometimes that ruling does not apply. (Note, for instance, that he is in Saudi Arabia, and not the USA, where circumstances are drastically different.)

After reflecting on this, I have become more and more saddened and disgusted by this response.

How do these teachings not contradict the messages of previous prophets, i.e. Thou shall not kill and all of Jesus’ teachings of forgiveness ("…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…" and “Love thy enemies”). (And please do not give me the unfounded argument that Jesus’ teachings were corrupted - I have seen absolutely NO proof of that! :tsktsk: )

Secondly, with regard to this quote:

(1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.” (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).

Should this also mean that anyone who converts from Christianity to Islam should be killed too? They would be changing their religion. Additionally, how would Muslims feel if the Catechism of the Catholic Church included instructions that anyone who left Christianity should be killed - and then carried out those instructions?

(3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.

This sounds to me like someone is worried that once someone learns the Truth they will teach it to others and Satan will lose his army of minions who will do his bidding.

I apologize in advance if any of this sounds harsh, but I am just SO incensed that anyone would condone MURDER for leaving a religion. And don’t give me the treason excuse of an argument - that first statement says absolutely nothing about treason. It is so absolutely clear that this teaching is NOT from God that I cannot understand why everyone doesn’t see this let alone that anyone would actually AGREE with this teaching!!!???!!!

**God is merciful and is always ready to forgive - and NOT with a 3 day time limit. His mercy is endless. **
OK, I’m going to take and break and calm down now.

 

[MrDickerson]

Not necessarily.

Sister Amy, your answer is so disgusting and just shows why we cannot allow you people to ever gain a foothold in America. You are most lucky you don’t live in 15th century Catholic Spain, where the Holy Inquisition would have likely burned you at the stake…reading your posts makes me wish we could return to those days…

 

[dzheremi]

Mr. Dickerson, if Sister Amy’s response is despicable for its nuance that refuses to categorically condemn the killing of apostates, then surely your response is at least as despicable for your longing to kill someone for being honest in a way that justifiably upsets you. To hunger for the death of others must surely be bad for the soul.

I would rather Sister Amy be honest than placate us, anyway. It is not Sister Amy who determines Muslim doctrine, and had she categorically condemned on principle the killing of any apostate in any and all circumstances, no doubt many posters would have answered her by posting verses from the Qur’an and news stories from the Muslim world that would shed light on her deception.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Not necessarily.

I

I can´t believe I defended Muslim women…oh man, this is just awfull. May God have mercy on us.

 

[Jay53]

I would rather Sister Amy be honest than placate us, anyway. It is not Sister Amy who determines Muslim doctrine, and had she categorically condemned on principle the killing of any apostate in any and all circumstances, no doubt many posters would have answered her by posting verses from the Qur’an and news stories from the Muslim world that would shed light on her deception.

I agree that honesty is admirable. Honesty among us is the only way we can actually learn about others’ faiths. The adherence to and acceptance of evil teachings is what I find despicable.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

I agree that honesty is admirable. Honesty among us is the only way we can actually learn about others’ faiths. The adherence to and acceptance of evil teachings is what I find despicable.

Me too!!!

 

[sedonaman]

Not necessarily.

Which means that you do believe it should be death in some cases. In what circumstances do you think so?

 

[R_not]

May Allah protect him and keep him safe, and reward him for all the work he does.

I didn’t say “no” and I didn’t say “yes,” but I said “Not necessarily.” The answer from the sheikh (hafidhahullah) is a good answer–one I’ve referred to myself a couple times.

What’s also important to understand is the role of apostasy in early Islam–that it isn’t just changing one’s faith or creed, but in actuality committing treason and going to war with the Muslims. In such a case, absolutely, the penalty is death.

But there are other scholars you can check with who also point out that sometimes leaving the religion of Islam is not that kind of apostasy, and especially without an Islamic state to commit treason against, the penalty of death doesn’t quite make sense.

I don’t disagree with what the sheikh wrote. But sometimes that ruling does not apply. (Note, for instance, that he is in Saudi Arabia, and not the USA, where circumstances are drastically different.)

And right here you have just admitted that muslims are in a war against us.

and an answer of ‘not necessarily’ is so you cannot be pinned down for what you really believe in. But, you just pinned yourself down right with this note.

When muslims consider themselves a part of the ‘umma’ and that the world is supposed to be for allah and they are either in dar al harb (the realm of war which is our infidel lands not under sharia laws) or dar al islam - it doesn’t matter if there is an islamic state or not.

The ex-muslims here quite often have to have body guards and/or live in hiding, so it is not necessarily any different. The difference being that our laws will take the murderers and put them in prison after a trial by jury. Under sharia law that won’t happen.

You are very slick, but not that slick. You are only a beginner in taqiyya/kithman. You have a lot more to learn.

 

[sedonaman]

And right here you have just admitted that muslims are in a war against us.

and an answer of ‘not necessarily’ is so you cannot be pinned down for what you really believe in. But, you just pinned yourself down right with this note.

When muslims consider themselves a part of the ‘umma’ and that the world is supposed to be for allah and they are either in dar al harb (the realm of war which is our infidel lands not under sharia laws) or dar al islam - it doesn’t matter if there is an islamic state or not.

The ex-muslims here quite often have to have body guards and/or live in hiding, so it is not necessarily any different. The difference being that our laws will take the murderers and put them in prison after a trial by jury. Under sharia law that won’t happen.

You are very slick, but not that slick. You are only a beginner in taqiyya/kithman. You have a lot more to learn.

She said:

…it isn’t just changing one’s faith or creed, but in actuality committing treason and going to war with the Muslims. In such a case, absolutely, the penalty is death.

Taking her whole post in “context,” it is clear that there is no concept of free will within Islam. An unbeliever’s mere existence is “treason” and/or “war against Islam.”

The more we learn about Islam, the more it begins to resemble the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse: War/Conquest, Famine, Pestilence, and Death.

 

[nosadl]

There is one true Islam, it is the Islam followed by the Prophet Muhammad and his Companions–and they will never agree on an error in the religion. It is Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah. The religion is divinely revealed, and is not subject to human “interpretations.”

How do you know that the religion is divinely revealed? Because Muhammad told you? What if all that he said were revelations from God were actually his own compositions designed to ensure his power, wealth, satisfaction, and aggrandizement? Because that was what he achieved in his lifetime is it not?

I hope you will objectively search for your own truths, starting with what you think is the nature of God’s love and what message and messenger he would send.

May the peace and love of Jesus Christ be with you as you stat you journey.

 

[MrDickerson]

How do you know that the religion is divinely revealed? Because Muhammad told you? What if all that he said were revelations from God were actually his own compositions designed to ensure his power, wealth, satisfaction, and aggrandizement? Because that was what he achieved in his lifetime is it not?

I hope you will objectively search for your own truths, starting with what you think is the nature of God’s love and what message and messenger he would send.

May the peace and love of Jesus Christ be with you as you stat you journey.

She talked about why she thinks Islam is the true faith in another thread; to wit, she read the Quran and it gave her warm and fuzzies, therefore, despite insurmountable evidence against it, it must be true…which is of course the same “proof” the Morons use when they claim the Book of Mormon is from God.

 

[R_not]

Christian apostate from islam - a judge expressing desire to kill the person himself if he had a knife.

In accordance with Muhammad’s own orders: “If anyone changes his religion, kill him” (Bukhari vol. 9, bk. 84, no. 57).

When there is sharia law established - this is what sort of justice there is. this is just one example.

 

[R_not]

Oh boy, the incidences on how muslims treat apostates are piling up today.

Here is another one. This one is about a Saudi “interfaith dialogue” at home: Blogger arrested for leaving Islam and criticizing sharia

Here is the deal. We keep labeling muslims ‘moderate’. I don’t hear a peep out of them around this globe when atrocities happen in islam against non-muslims. Not one peep.

Now, I do hear from these ‘moderates’ when the victims of muslim aggressors finally strike back. Oh the whining and wailing, foul language, terrorist flags waving, etc - and nasty things like attacking Jews around the globe, not serving them in stores, etc - all abound from ‘moderates’.

There is one group that are not ‘moderate’, but ‘reformative’ that do indeed speak out but they are overwhelmed by the ‘moderates’. Remember these are our labels, but even at that these people are in danger for their lives too if they live in muslim countries and/or a cleric decides that they want them dead in our country and issues a fatwa.

I don’t understand how anyone could follow a guy like mohammed - moderate, peaceful, reformative, or anyone.

 

[jakasaki]

You know R_Not - I believe there are “moderate” or “liberal” muslims around but they are just too afraid to speak up and stand out.

They would be outcasts and misfits and most likely they would be putting their lives in jeopardy with death threats.

But like our muslim members on this forum have said, that if a muslim doesn’t pray/fast etc… then he/she is NOT a true muslim and therefore there is no such thing as a moderate/liberal muslim.

Best regards,
And May God Bless Us All, Everyone!
Pam
New York

 

[Jay53]

I also think the “moderate” and “liberal” muslims (or pseudo-muslims as they’ve been called) are secretly glad all this violence and jihad are going on because it means they don’t have to commit the violence themselves - the whole concept of fard kifayah. As long as another Muslim is doing the dirty work it lets all the other ones off the hook.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

There is so much evil in Islam.