How do "moderate" or "liberal" Muslims feel about Muslims leaving Islam?

[R_not]

I also think the “moderate” and “liberal” muslims (or pseudo-muslims as they’ve been called) are secretly glad all this violence and jihad are going on because it means they don’t have to commit the violence themselves - the whole concept of fard kifayah. As long as another Muslim is doing the dirty work it lets all the other ones off the hook.

And I have to agree with you on this one. but the ‘moderates’ do indeed do jihad by stealth - the deception, muslim charities, helping out by rioting/protesting for terrorists such as hamas, etc.

And that is all in their koran and hadiths - to support the jihadists in any way they can. to intentionally confuse us as to what the koran says 6:25 6:110 17:45-76

Its Bukhari b9, v86, n101 mohammad: “Silence is consent.”

 

[morning_star777]

Liberal Muslim families?

There is no sect of “Liberal Islam.” Don’t even know what that is.

Thank you very much.I am happy that you proved me right.Ya at least In this case I agree with you .Really there is no 'Liberal Islam".But I want to add a point and that is,in reality there is no sector of “Moderate Islam” also,because Islam is the religion of bigotry.And almost all Muslims(real muslims) are bigot and communal.

 

[sedonaman]

There is one true Islam, it is the Islam followed by the Prophet Muhammad and his Companions

Right. And Muhammad’s example defines what it means to be a “moderate” Muslim.

The religion is divinely revealed, and is not subject to human “interpretations.”

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, that someone says or writes must be interpreted. This is what a human being’s brain does as he hears/reads something. Otherwise no meaning at all would be communicated. Perhaps this is why Islam tries to strip away a person’s humanity.

 

[sedonaman]

There is so much evil in Islam.

Then perhaps you can explain where it says in Islamic foundational texts where it says Allah loves EVERYBODY with out exception.

 

[Carjack1]

:bigyikes: The stuff I am reading on this thread is outright uncharitable. I don’t care if I get flammed, but some of these comments are outright rude. This thread was about how do moderate and liberal muslim feel and turned into muslim bashing, wow. How is insulting others making them want to join the Catholic faith?

 

[rtconstant]

I also think the “moderate” and “liberal” muslims (or pseudo-muslims as they’ve been called) are secretly glad all this violence and jihad are going on because it means they don’t have to commit the violence themselves - the whole concept of fard kifayah. As long as another Muslim is doing the dirty work it lets all the other ones off the hook.

There are actually many liberal and moderate muslims and in fact probably form a majority (in the Muslim population) here in the US. However, where that Christianity and Judaism have liberal and moderate participants who are also considered active in the Faith, Islam does not. Or at least not in readily apparent numbers. Liberal of moderate Muslims tend to not be actively practicing. So in a Christian context they would fall more into the “nominal” category. So Amy does have a valid argument when she says they are not “true” Muslims in that many Christians hold a similar view of nominal or cultural Christians.

I think there are several reasons that we don’t hear much from Moderate or Liberal Muslisms. In some cases it might be fear depending on the circumstance and location. Also, some may not want to draw anymore attention or embarassement to already bad situations, finallly some just don’t identify with the “crazys”. When you hear some Imam say something ignorant or a terrorist do something terrible they’re standing next too you saying “what’s wrong with those idiots?”

Most moderate and liberal Muslims I’ve met seem to honestly identify more with Christians than their fellow Muslims. Their cultural rearing has instilled in them a belief in God, basic morality, and the sense that they should live good lives. However, as they don’t really delve to much into theology, they usually use reason to sort out the details. So they tend to think in a very similar fashion as other cultures in the first world, and indeed are usually products of the first world.

I remember talking to a friend from Afghanistan about the US invasion, he himself would fall into the “liberal” category. I won’t go into the details of what all he said but his take on what the US should do in afghanistan would make Hannity nervous. I say that as an example that often Moderate and Liberal Muslims really have ceased to identify with the more traditional paths of Islam. In other words my friend identified more with the nation he chose to live in than with his religious brethren.

Now, as Amy is a practicing Muslim I’m not going to condemn her for looking down her nose at non-practicing Muslims as Christian often do the same thing. What does bother me about more traditional Muslims is that they tend to like to display liberal Muslims when the world is watching, but they condemn them when everyone else isn’t looking.

As an addendum, I’m not saying you do this Amy.

Finally, in my experience liberal and moderate Muslims don’t really condemn converts, but the subject does make them nervous. Not nervous as in scared but rather uncomfortable. I would liken it to a nominal Catholic family who loses a child to say the Jehova’s Witnesses. They don’t disown them but it just sort of “bothers” them even though they don’t really practice their own Faith.

 

[sedonaman]

The stuff I am reading on this thread is outright uncharitable. I don’t care if I get flammed, but some of these comments are outright rude.

How is quoting Mohammad and his Islamic scholars uncharitable?

This thread was about how do moderate and liberal muslim feel and turned into Muslim bashing, wow.

I don’t recall any bashing of Muslims. That is just your interpretation of our criticism of Islam itself.

What we have learned from our “dialog” is that 1) Muslims don’t think the same way we in the West do, and 2) words have entirely different meanings to Muslims, and Westerners proceed with their polite “dialog” unconsciously thinking they do. For example, you said, “This thread was about how do moderate and liberal Muslim feel?” Do you know what a “liberal” Muslim is? “Sister Amy” said there is no “liberal” Islam, so how could there be any liberal Muslims? So the question about how liberal Muslims feel has about as much meaning as asking how cows feel about flying.

As for “moderate” Muslims, what would constitute a moderate Muslim in your mind? A “nice” Muslim? A “tolerant” Muslim?

“Sister Amy” also said in this thread that Islamic doctrine “is not subject to human ‘interpretation’.” Yet when anyone points to any of the Koran’s invocations to violence [see note below], Islamic scholars are haste to point out that the passage was “taken out of context”, which strongly implies that a “correct” interpretation is required. So, aren’t you the least bit curious how someone like Cardinal Pell could interpret it one way, Islamic scholars interpret it another way, all the while it is not subject to interpretation? You might also ask yourself how Islamic scholars could even know what the Koran said if they were not allowed to interpret what they read. You learned in grammar school that the earth is round. How could you know the earth is round unless you had a concept of “earth” and “round” and interpreted what you were just taught? So the idea that something is exempt from interpretation is absurd on its face. Yet, you expect us to believe it without question, because to question would lack the proper sensitivity.

Lots of people criticize the Catholic Church, and it has been able to survive. If Islam is true, then why should it be exempt from critique any more than Catholicism? The truth about Catholic clergy abusing children was embarrassing, but the Church didn’t deny that it happened. It admitted fault and set about correcting itself, but you will never hear a Muslim cleric condemn terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam. Did you ever wonder why not? Apparently you never did because thinking it would somehow be “uncharitable”.

Note: See Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, “In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages.” sydney.catholic.org.au/Archbishop/Addresses/200627_681.shtml

 

[R_not]

And the surahs that abrogated the more peaceful surahs are actually can be described like this:

An example of the abrogation: There are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience that have been cancelled and replaced by one, single verse. This verse is called the verse of the sword:

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…” Surah 9:5
Verses that support the verse of the Sword

1. “Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of believers” (Surah 9:14).

1. “O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque” (Surah 9:28).

1. “The Jews call ‘Uzayr a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!” (Surah 9:30).

1. “O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell – an evil refuge indeed” (Surah 9:73).

1. “O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him” (Surah 9:123).

This article goes into the surahs that were abrogated. Abrogation

So, there are so many surahs that are quoted to us by these muslims without one peep about them being abrogated.

 

[rikkk1958]

I think the whole point of Sister Amy’s coming into the CAF is to prove that Islam in her understanding is peaceful and the Islam the terrorists follow is violent, therefore she wanted to convince us that we have to believe in her and not the terrorists.

I have told Sister Amy how much I admire her intellect especially circumventing half truth to an imaginary truth so that we will be able to understand that everything Muhammed did was right. The only thing is if you put it mathematically, she wanted to sum up numbers like 1 -1 is still 1. How can that be?

She said she was a Christian before becoming a Muslim, is this so? I need to ask her how much she knew Christianity before replacing it with Islam. Mathematically again she made a poor summary because instead of 100% she downgraded her herself to negativity.

 

[Lady_Bug]

Hi guys It’s the OP - you know what, I forgot about this thread for awhile and at first the thread didn’t have that many answers - I didn’t realize how quickly it expanded.

I don’t log in here all that much and check my control panel - I would have noticed this a lot sooner. LOL.

Sorry I did the “post and run” thing on this - it’s hard to follow up on one’s own topic sometimes.

 

[planten]

Hi guys It’s the OP - you know what, I forgot about this thread for awhile and at first the thread didn’t have that many answers - I didn’t realize how quickly it expanded.

I don’t log in here all that much and check my control panel - I would have noticed this a lot sooner. LOL.

Sorry I did the “post and run” thing on this - it’s hard to follow up on one’s own topic sometimes.

**You started this thread in good faith. There have been many replies. I read some of them. I did not notice much bashing (except by R-not). I found the first few post by Sis Amy were quite good.

The subject developed into the law about apostates. May I inform that it is generally believed by majority muslims (and enacted too in some muslim states) that the apostate is to be killed.
But that is all wrong. There is no such thing in the Quran. Unless there is a war going on, no one is to be harmed due to his change of religion. Every one is free to come in the fold of Islam and every one is free to leave when he likes. There is no compulsion in any religion according to Islam. Rather there should be no **compulsion in any religion.

There is no need to hate any apostate. The post #2 and #3 were also very good descriptive of the topic. One of them from Reuben.

The muslims are misled about killing the apostates. They are being led by the bigots.They have no real proof. Killing is a capital punishment and cannot be awarded unless it is mentioned in the Quran. That type of punishment (killing) cannot be awarded on the basis of some Hadith alone. Proof for such things should come from Quran. But there is nothing in the Quran about killing any apostate.
There is only “No compulsion” and “For you is your faith and for me is my faith…” in the Quran.

Next important item is abrogation. I inform you that there is no abroagtion in the Quran. No verse is abrogated. Please note it. Thanks.

 

[R_not]

**You started this thread in good faith. There have been many replies. I read some of them. I did not notice much bashing (except by R-not). I found the first few post by Sis Amy were quite good.

The subject developed into the law about apostates. May I inform that it is generally believed by majority muslims (and enacted too in some muslim states) that the apostate is to be killed.
But that is all wrong. There is no such thing in the Quran. Unless there is a war going on, no one is to be harmed due to his change of religion. Every one is free to come in the fold of Islam and every one is free to leave when he likes. There is no compulsion in any religion according to Islam. Rather there should be no **compulsion in any religion.

There is no need to hate any apostate. The post #2 and #3 were also very good descriptive of the topic. One of them from Reuben.

The muslims are misled about killing the apostates. They are being led by the bigots.They have no real proof. Killing is a capital punishment and cannot be awarded unless it is mentioned in the Quran. That type of punishment (killing) cannot be awarded on the basis of some Hadith alone. Proof for such things should come from Quran. But there is nothing in the Quran about killing any apostate.
There is only “No compulsion” and “For you is your faith and for me is my faith…” in the Quran.

Next important item is abrogation. I inform you that there is no abroagtion in the Quran. No verse is abrogated. Please note it. Thanks.

Please point to a specific post that I bashed you.

yes, it is good to read sister amy’s posts so we get used to how muslims think and how they twist the meanings of words and just blindly accept what they are told with no further research into anything when they have the opportunity to do so in a free country.

I quoted your own koran about abrogation. The usual, continual denial of what is in front of your face.

And the thing about the killing of apostates - why don’t muslims change their sharia laws about that? Well, not much is ever changed in sharia laws. And why is that? All we hear is ‘lip service’ about many of the points in sharia laws while nothing is ever done about them. That makes me think that muslims are just telling us what we wish to hear while they go their merry way doing nothing to fix their own religiion’s problems.

Well, there could be one reason - there is no reward for doing that. There is a reward for getting converts. So islam is a self-serving religion.

Islam doesn’t teach that people have control over their lives, but instead allah has predestined them to heaven or hell, and so it is like they just lay back and accept their lot. With the only hope, I suppose, that doing jihad will bypass predestination. Does that bypass predestination? Does hoping that one’s children dies as martyrs bypass predestination if they name you as one of the saved? Does worshiping that black rock also help in bypassing predestination since it is believed to have consciousness and to ‘speak’ for you at Judgement Day?

This article says no for ten verifiable reasons.

I would recommend reading the article to get an indepth reading of the research into all of these points I will post.

1. Islam commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped.
2. Islam allows husbands to hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives.
3. Islam allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge—physical eye for physical eye.
4. Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off.
5. Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated.
6. Islam commands that homosexuals must be executed.
7. Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death.
8. Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non-Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.
9. Islam orders apostates to be killed.
10. Islam commands offensive and aggressive and unjust jihad.

 

[Jay53]

I found this story today in the news. It specifically mentions sentencing a man to death for converting to Christianity.

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,489104,00.html

Here’s the portion I’m referring to since it wasn’t the main part of the story. (Although I still feel bad for the other guy in the story, too ):

In 2006, an Afghan man was sentenced to death for converting to Christianity. He was later ruled insane and was given asylum in Italy. Islamic leaders and the parliament accused President Hamid Karzai of being a puppet for the West for letting him live.

This is the parliament advocating killing this man. How are the peaceful Muslims supposed to get their point across that this is unacceptable if that’s not how the leaders respond.

Edit: Here’s some more information on the case - very hopeful regarding the conversion of many Muslims in Afghanistan, but they still face danger. May God protect them.
soompi.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t46132.html

 

[nosadl]

**You started this thread in good faith. There have been many replies. I read some of them. I did not notice much bashing (except by R-not). I found the first few post by Sis Amy were quite good.

The subject developed into the law about apostates. May I inform that it is generally believed by majority muslims (and enacted too in some muslim states) that the apostate is to be killed.
But that is all wrong. There is no such thing in the Quran. Unless there is a war going on, no one is to be harmed due to his change of religion. Every one is free to come in the fold of Islam and every one is free to leave when he likes. There is no compulsion in any religion according to Islam. Rather there should be no **compulsion in any religion.

There is no need to hate any apostate. The post #2 and #3 were also very good descriptive of the topic. One of them from Reuben.

The muslims are misled about killing the apostates. They are being led by the bigots.They have no real proof. Killing is a capital punishment and cannot be awarded unless it is mentioned in the Quran. That type of punishment (killing) cannot be awarded on the basis of some Hadith alone. Proof for such things should come from Quran. But there is nothing in the Quran about killing any apostate.
There is only “No compulsion” and “For you is your faith and for me is my faith…” in the Quran.

Next important item is abrogation. I inform you that there is no abroagtion in the Quran. No verse is abrogated. Please note it. Thanks.

Abrogation is in the quran bro.

Sometimes your views are more christian than muslim. why do you not just give up the struggle to defend the indefensible and join the religion of faith and reason, love and hope- the Catholic church.

Praying for you. May Christ guide you.

 

[planten]

Abrogation is in the quran bro.

Sometimes your views are more christian than muslim. why do you not just give up the struggle to defend the indefensible and join the religion of faith and reason, love and hope- the Catholic church.

Praying for you. May Christ guide you.

Please keep up prayers and ask God if there is any abrogation in the BibleOT and bibleNT too. Forget about the abrogation in the Quran. I know some uniformed Muslims are having the idea of abrogation in the Quran since very long time. But that was all wrong. That was all due to misinterpretting the verses.

It is a challenge to any one to present even one single verse which is now abrogated. He/she should present the verse which abrogates it with proof. No such verses will be found in the Quran.

I asked you about abrogation in bibleOT and NT because I clearly see that bibleOT has been abrogated by the bibleNT and the OT is laid aside now by the church. The law of Moses has been abrogated. I hope you will agree to me on that. Thanks.

There was no need to abrogate the bibleNT because Paul did it all. He hardly left any truth in the teachings of Jesus.

 

[nosadl]

Please keep up prayers and ask God if there is any abrogation in the BibleOT and bibleNT too. Forget about the abrogation in the Quran. I know some uniformed Muslims are having the idea of abrogation in the Quran since very long time. But that was all wrong. That was all due to misinterpretting the verses.

It is a challenge to any one to present even one single verse which is now abrogated. He/she should present the verse which abrogates it with proof. No such verses will be found in the Quran.

I asked you about abrogation in bibleOT and NT because I clearly see that bibleOT has been abrogated by the bibleNT and the OT is laid aside now by the church. The law of Moses has been abrogated. I hope you will agree to me on that. Thanks.

There was no need to abrogate the bibleNT because Paul did it all. He hardly left any truth in the teachings of Jesus.

If there is no abrogation in the quran then Muslims have an even larger problem, that of inconsistency between suras. Also how do they explain the satanic verses? the "there is no compulsion on religion vs the injunction “if they turn turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them” There is a sura which says specifically speaks of abrogation is there not? I am quite certain I have read it. I am sure also that Muslim apologists have used it when confronted with the satanic verses, and violence verses. Muslims started by praying towards Jerusalem, then it was changed to mecca. Abrogation?

The law of Moses was to prepare and civilize humanity until it was ready to receive the saviour. The fulfilment came in Jesus. Read Eusibius, The History of the Church. There you will find a consistency between the Judaism and its fulfilment in Jesus. From a mass of violent intractable intransigient uncivilized sinful men, God chose a people to love and to train to love him. the laws of Moses introduced concepts of love, social order, worship, discipline, the love of scholarship, and even hygiene into humanity. From Israel, a saviour was born who brought the love of God, the commandment of love that God seeks in men, to the gentiles.

Paul evangelized the world because Jesus told him to do it. He did not abrogate nor eliminate any of Jesus’ teachings.

 

[planten]

If there is no abrogation in the quran then Muslims have an even larger problem, that of inconsistency between suras. Also how do they explain the satanic verses? the "there is no compulsion on religion vs the injunction “if they turn turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them” There is a sura which says specifically speaks of abrogation is there not? I am quite certain I have read it. I am sure also that Muslim apologists have used it when confronted with the satanic verses, and violence verses. Muslims started by praying towards Jerusalem, then it was changed to mecca. Abrogation?

The law of Moses was to prepare and civilize humanity until it was ready to receive the saviour. The fulfilment came in Jesus. Read Eusibius, The History of the Church. There you will find a consistency between the Judaism and its fulfilment in Jesus. From a mass of violent intractable intransigient uncivilized sinful men, God chose a people to love and to train to love him. the laws of Moses introduced concepts of love, social order, worship, discipline, the love of scholarship, and even hygiene into humanity. From Israel, a saviour was born who brought the love of God, the commandment of love that God seeks in men, to the gentiles.

Paul evangelized the world because Jesus told him to do it. He did not abrogate nor eliminate any of Jesus’ teachings.

Your post is a multi-pronged post. I will not discuss all. I will speak about abrogation in the Quran. You are right. there is a verse which is much misunderstood, even by old time muslim scholars,or so called scholars. They did not understand it.

Verse is as follows:

“We do not abrogate any verse (or sign) nor do we make it to be forgotten. Rather We bring a better one than that or equal (in standard) to that.” Al-Quran 2:106.

It means that Allah does not abrogate any of his verses or signs but He rather brings another verse better than that or at least equal in goodness to that.

There is no mention of Quran in that verse. There have been previous verses too in the bible OT and NT that were revealed earlier by Allah. It could mean those verses too.

Please remember the initial part “We do not abrogate any verse…” So believe that Allah does not abrogate any verse. That is the end of this abrogation affair.

You have mentioned the Satanic verses. I do not know them nor have I seen any.