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BJ_Colbert
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Scott_Lafrance said:
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tkdnick
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BJ Colbert:
I believe us Catholics have a MUCH stronger assurance that our families will still be together in the afterlife. See there’s only two places we can go…Heaven or hell. There is no other option. As I read LDS writings, there are 5 places to go…celestial, telestial, terrestrial (levels of heaven), spirit prison, outer darkness. And you go to these places based on your faithfulness to LDS teachings correct? There’s a whole lot more places for your family to be spread out over the 5 lds afterlife “places”, than the 2 for Catholics.
Isn’t it true that in order to make the highest level of heaven, whether you are sealed or not, that you must be a faithful LDS? How does that work with the family? What if the wife is a faithful LDS member, but the husband is not faithful enough to warrant that highest level of heaven? How can the family unit be preserved? Or how about if a child does not warrant that level of heaven? How is the family unit preserved?
I believe us Catholics have a MUCH stronger assurance that our families will still be together in the afterlife. See there’s only two places we can go…Heaven or hell. There is no other option. As I read LDS writings, there are 5 places to go…celestial, telestial, terrestrial (levels of heaven), spirit prison, outer darkness. And you go to these places based on your faithfulness to LDS teachings correct? There’s a whole lot more places for your family to be spread out over the 5 lds afterlife “places”, than the 2 for Catholics.
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tkdnick
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BJ Colbert:
BJ, as is the case with some who claim to be Catholic as well, there are several “sects” of Mormonism who all claim to be the true Mormon church. I think I read somewhere that there are 42 sects. Some of these sects practice polygamy/polygyny.
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PaulDupre
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BJ Colbert:
If the present-day polygynists are “sick in the head”, then were the polygynous Mormons of the 19th century also “sick in the head”?
After all, the fundamentalists are just following the true teachings of Joseph Smith.
God love you,
Paul
BJ,
If the present-day polygynists are “sick in the head”, then were the polygynous Mormons of the 19th century also “sick in the head”?
After all, the fundamentalists are just following the true teachings of Joseph Smith.
God love you,
Paul
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PaulDupre
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Agreed!
Paul
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tkdnick
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Paul, I heard a statement made by a former LDS member who is now a Deacon of the Catholic Church that I was hoping maybe you could help me out with. I’m sure the LDS here will say this is not LDS teaching, because this person said it was a teaching that IS NOT taught to MOST LDS.
He said that the LDS hierarchy actually holds the belief that only 144,000 faithful LDS will ever reach exaltation and become gods and that they MUST have plural wives. He said that the prophets and apostles are all sealed to “extra” wives in the temples in secret ceremonies that no one ever talks about. I’m wondering if you’ve ever heard this, have any documentation on it?
I’m guessing that if there is in fact a teaching like this, that if it got out it would probably have quite a negative effect on the growth and population of the LDS church throughout the world.
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Tmaque
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I’ve never heard of either of these things and I’m an ex-mormon who only recently converted to Catholicism. The 144,000 is a JW thing. Never heard it mentioned in LDS theology before.
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Tmaque
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BJ Colbert:
I have relatives that are LDS Fundamentalists. They are not sick in the head. They simply believe the Doctrine & Covenants and follow the teachings of the early LDS prophets. The haven’t bought into the idea that God changes his mind as often as the wind blows like modern LDS do. They believe contraception is wrong, they believe that the word of wisdom is NOT a commandment just as the D&C states. They are AUTHENTIC Mormons. I have incredible respect for them.
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Scott_Lafrance
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Faithful to which stage of LDS doctrine, as it mutates and changes over time. The current Apostle is the mouthpiece of God, and therefore is within his purview to modify doctrine to fit the times.
tkdnick:
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tkdnick
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That’s what I’m saying! He said it was a secret belief that was only held and taught to those who reached a certain level in the LDS hierarchy. He apparantly was a bigwig in the LDS church, and just could not except the teachings he was receiving as he moved up the hierarchy. His name is Steve Seever…I think.
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Katholikos
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The name “fundamentalist” has been applied to those who practice Mormonism as it was originally taught by its founder and “prophet,” Joseph Smith. Polygyny practitioners call themselves “fundamentalists” to signify their reversion to original Mormonism and others use this terminology as well. It’s authenic, unadulterated Mormonism. Those who have complied with the demands of the United States Government to “refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land” are going against their founder’s teaching. Plural marriage was illegal when Smith started it, and it’s illegal now.
Polygyny is just on “hold” until the political climate permits it to again be practiced without legal consequences. The doctrine has not been repudiated.
JMJ Jay
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caroljm36
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Just wait until the Muslim population in this country hits critical mass. Between them and diehard Mormons, we’ll have legal polygyny following on the heels of gay marriage. I always thought it would be debasing for women, but never before thought about the effect on young men! Like the old guy in “Chinatown” said at the end, left to their own devices some men will do anything.
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Scott_Lafrance
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Sooooo, this country will become a nation of Mormon Muslims? :whacky:
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PaulDupre
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It’s not really that big a secret. It refers to a ceremony associated with the process of having your calling and election made sure - that is, becoming a god.(see D&C section 131:5 and section 132)
Background
Mormon men normally expect - or at least hope - that this will happen in the next life. But it is also possible that you can have your calling and election made sure during this lifetime. There are several people named in the D&C who are said to have had their calling and election made sure. Joseph Smith was the first (no surprise there) in D&C 132:49.
The ceremony connected with it is only discussed within the walls of the temple and usually only with priesthood holders (men) - and then rarely, which is why so many LDS have never heard of it. It was explained to me on two different occasions.
The first was after I took out my endownment (1st visit to the temple - in Provo Utah) prior to serving my mission. The temple president took 8 of us male missionaries into a little room and explained this and several other temple-specific things to us. His point was that if we were not perfectly obedient as missionaries, we could not have our calling and election made sure. He also said that he had never personally witnessed this ceremony, but his predecessor had witnessed it in the Salt Lake Temple.
The second was when I was married in the temple. One of the temple president’s counselors married us. Afterwards, in the celestial room, he invited me to ask him questions, so I asked him about it. He said pretty much what the first president had said:
The ceremony
In Mormonism, this occurs on earth when the prophet proclaims that your obedience to Mormon authority has been perfect.
You are taken to the temple and a special annointing is performed by the prophet and one or more apostles. During this annointing, you are declared to be a living god, and your exaltation (godhood) is assured, provided you don’t commit murder before you die (see D&C 132:19).
After this annointing, you are sealed to several women who will be plural wives to you in the future celestial kingdom.
I know that many LDS men know about this ceremony but, like all other temple-specific things, they are not allowed to discuss it and will feign ignorance. Women will not have heard of it (until now?).
Some have probably heard about it in the temple if they went on missions, but have forgotten over time. It is not routinely brought up, even in the temple.
Elder (later President) Ezra Taft Benson visited and addressed the Taiwan Taipei mission in 1978 when I was there. As part of his remarks, which I would like to recount to you sometime, he said that he had been priviledged to be present in the Salt Lake Temple when President David O. McKay had his calling and election made sure. So I know of at least one person in modern times who has acheived godhood in this life.
Hope this helps,
Paul
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tkdnick
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THANKS Paul!!! :clapping: You’re the only person here to have given me ANY insight into this belief!!! :bowdown:
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BJ_Colbert
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My brother is ex-LDS and he says all kinds of crazy things, like that and it is just not true. Ex-Mormons have it in for the church and they will twist and turn the truth to make it sound just awful.
I have heard they kill babys in the Temples and have sex on the alters and all kinds of horrible atrocities, but when I have been to the Temple it was a place much as I would expect heaven to be, very peaceful and beautiful and people working and worshiping and doing temple work. I know many “Bigwigs” in the LDS Church and they have never mentioned any secrets. We do not have secrets in our church. The 3 degrees of Glory are where all will go according to their works. Celestial is the highest, It also is divided into 3 levels. The second level is for good people who just didn’t care about God, maybe athiests and those kind of people. The lowest is for murderers, thieves and other scoundrels. We are assigned to these levels on the Judgement day after the second coming of Christ. The Spirit world where we go to await the second coming is a place of learning and studying and waiting till the resurrection. Hell is where only a few will go, they are the ones like Judas, who knew Jesus face to face and still denied him. Maybe very wicked people like Hitler. If we reach a higher level than family or children then we can visit, but not live as a family unit. Which is all speculation and I have never been there so can not explain to you something I have not experienced yet. It gives me great comfort to know I will see my little grand daughter who died 9 years ago at the age of 10 months old. I know for a fact through my faith that I will see her again. It is a feeling and knowledge deep inside that no one has to tell you, you just know. I would never want to lose someone precious to me and think that I would never see them again.
I guess that is all I will say to these forums and again Tdknick I will see you at Divine Savior, although I won’t know which one you are, I have already told my husband we are switching parishes, at least when I go with him we will go there. He can go to the other one when I don’t go.
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PaulDupre
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BJ Colbert:
First token of the Aaronic priesthood: Throat slashed
Second token of the Aaronic priesthood: Heart torn out
First token of the Melchizadek priesthood: Bowels gushed out
I hope you stick around, BJ. You’re a real challenge.
God bless you,
Paul
Apparently they know something you don’t know. That’s why they’re ex-Mormons.
You are correct, BJ. None of that stuff is true. There is nothing sexual or illegal going on in LDS temples. People should not say things like that - it just muddies the waters.
That’s because they’re secret!
Really? Then why do you promise not to reveal the secret handshakes and passwords you are given in the temple? Prior to 1990 there were blood oaths and punishments attached to each handshake/password if you reveal it:
First token of the Aaronic priesthood: Throat slashed
Second token of the Aaronic priesthood: Heart torn out
First token of the Melchizadek priesthood: Bowels gushed out
And “sons of perdition” (ex-Mormons like me)
I’ll take the Catholic version of heaven where I know I will be with my family forever, even if they never achieved “perfection”, because the Lord in His mercy will cleanse us in purgatory.
I hope you stick around, BJ. You’re a real challenge.
God bless you,
Paul
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BJ_Colbert
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Paul,
You did a good job explaining, and I agree with you, I didn’t know all of that because I do not have a husband who holds the priesthood (Catholic you know)and when I did years ago he wasn’t a very good Mormon. I can believe all of that and I think it is great. I have to admit I skimmed because I am in a rush to leave, but looks good to me as much as I read. Just as the Pope has more knowledge than the people, so the Prophet has more knowledge than the average person in our church. They have more responsibilities and must know more about heavenly things in order to guide us home.
You did a good job explaining, and I agree with you, I didn’t know all of that because I do not have a husband who holds the priesthood (Catholic you know)and when I did years ago he wasn’t a very good Mormon. I can believe all of that and I think it is great. I have to admit I skimmed because I am in a rush to leave, but looks good to me as much as I read. Just as the Pope has more knowledge than the people, so the Prophet has more knowledge than the average person in our church. They have more responsibilities and must know more about heavenly things in order to guide us home.
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BJ_Colbert
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Paul,
I just read the last post which you were writing while I was agreeing with you. I will not argue the last message except to say I do not think you will be a son of perdition. You are sincere in your belief and I think you are a good person.
Thanks for the challenges, I enjoyed them, although I do not know scripture like you do, and therefore could not defend as well as you could put down. It was great and made me study more than I have ever studied, which was not as much as I should have. But, when I retire in January I intend to study more. You have made me realize how little I know.
I feel like a Republican defending myself to a Democrat.
Yeah Bush!!!
Now I know why we are told not to discuss politics and religion…whew!!!
I just read the last post which you were writing while I was agreeing with you. I will not argue the last message except to say I do not think you will be a son of perdition. You are sincere in your belief and I think you are a good person.
Thanks for the challenges, I enjoyed them, although I do not know scripture like you do, and therefore could not defend as well as you could put down. It was great and made me study more than I have ever studied, which was not as much as I should have. But, when I retire in January I intend to study more. You have made me realize how little I know.
I feel like a Republican defending myself to a Democrat.
Yeah Bush!!!
Now I know why we are told not to discuss politics and religion…whew!!!
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PaulDupre
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Thank you, BJ. I hope you will come back. And please keep studying and learning. After all, “the glory of God is intelligence”, right?
Your friend,
Paul
Your friend,
Paul
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