How do Mormons View Eve & the Fall vs Catholics?

[gazelam]

How do you figure this when in Revelation, the elect are in the Garden with the Tree of Life & the nations using its leaves for healing?

Rev 2 KJV (BibleHub): 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The New Advent entry for Garden of Eden specifically states regarding Rev. 2:7 “In this passage the word is plainly used to designate the heavenly kingdom, though the imagery is borrowed from the description of the primeval Garden of Eden in the Book of Genesis.”

Also CS Lewis was not LDS, nor did he subscribe to their beliefs. I would say that his words do not mean what the LDS Church assume them to mean. His words must be taken in context.

What do you believe CS Lewis meant in this case and why?

 

[kainosktisis]

Ok, never mind. I’m in agreement with the reference cited. I will say that the Garden of Eden - our heavenly kingdom - is the better place.

So, if you were Adam and Eve, would you want to remain in a place where the Devil is allowed to be, or Heaven where the Devil can no longer be? And if you’re already immortal in the Garden of Eden, how would you get to Heaven? By being cast out of the Garden, and thereby partaking of death, and then being redeemed by Christ. That gets you to Heaven where the Devil cannot go.

This is an interesting point. Jesus had no problem with taking on flesh to become one of us & was tempted by Satan, but He overcame him. I would say that had our first parents done likewise, once again, death wouldn’t have entered the world. It did enter because of doubt, distrust, & pride - not for a higher calling. I look at it from more of a loving rescue effort from a fallen world.

From Job 1 (BibleHub):

6 One day the angels a came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan b also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

From 1 Kings 22 (BibleHub):

19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 “ ‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“ ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“ ‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

 

[RebeccaJ]

So, if you were Adam and Eve, would you want to remain in a place where the Devil is allowed to be, or Heaven where the Devil can no longer be? And if you’re already immortal in the Garden of Eden, how would you get to Heaven? By being cast out of the Garden, and thereby partaking of death, and then being redeemed by Christ. That gets you to Heaven where the Devil cannot go.

Also, CS Lewis made this observation (and he definitely was NOT a Latter-day Saint): Redeemed humanity is to be something more glorious than unfallen humanity would have been, more glorious than any unfallen race is now.

To go from unfallen to redeemed there is a need for mortality. I hope this helps…

You present a false dichotomy that reveals a denial of God’s attributes.

God does not require evil (sin) in order to bring about a greater good. The Fall came about because of a lack of trust in God. God used our Fall to bring about a greater good. This does not mean that God had no other plan.

We view the Fall as a derail. An attempt by Satan to triumph over God. An attempt to thwart God’s plan for us. We believe God created us as destined for Him, heaven is that destination. Living in the presence of God in the garden was our beginning point.

God wants a relationship of love with humanity and does not force us to liove him as forced love is not love. Adam and Eve had their love of God tested and failed. We see in the example of Job as well, that God allows us to be tempted by evil, in order to prove our love for God. (Job did better than our First Patents.)

CS Lewis is in the context of the Christian view. God is Omniscient and knew before the world was made that the Fall would happen. God is Love, and planned for our redemption. God is Just, and does not require us to sin, but in fact requires payment to God for our trespasses against him.

God is Omnipotent, and triumphs over sin, completely, removing us from the consequence of sin and showing an overabundance of love by lifting us higher. The derail corrected, immeasurably.

We look to Jesus, who when tempted by Satan taught us how to respond.

 

[Lemuel]

To do what Satan persuades us to do is sin . . . except in the case of Adam and Eve. Then, it was righteous to follow Satan.

 

[Lemuel]

I remember this general conference talk where the general authority, F. Burton Howard said:

Just as foolish as believing we can “pass it on” is the idea expressed by the phrase, “The end justifies the means.” Such a belief can also impede the repentance process and cheat us out of exaltation. Those who teach it are almost always attempting to excuse the use of improper or questionable means. Such people seem to be saying, “My purpose was to do good or to be happy; therefore any little lie or misrepresentation, or lapse of integrity, or violation of law along the way is justified.”

The Mormonites teach that in the case of Eve’s transgression, the end justified the means.

So which is it?

 

[kainosktisis]

I just had to share this as I was listening to/reading this, & I was just blown away…

From the Office of Readings for Fri., July 5, 2019 - Pt 1of 2 (Divine Office):

“Second reading

From a book on the Predestination of the Saints by Saint Augustine, bishop

In his human nature Jesus Christ is descended from the line of David

The greatest glory of predestination and grace is the Savior himself, the mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. What, I ask you, did his human nature do in the way of good works or of faith to merit beforehand this glory? Give me an answer to this question: How did his humanity merit to be taken up by the Word, coeternal with the Father, into unity with his person and so to be the only- begotten Son of God? What goodness, of whatever kind, did he possess beforehand? What had he done, what faith had he shown, what request had he made, that he should attain to that point of preeminence, beyond all human power of description? Was it not through the action of the Word in taking this humanity to himself that, from the moment when he came into existence, this human being came into existence as the only Son of God?

We must keep before our eyes the very source of grace, taking its origin in Christ, our head, and flowing through all his members according to the capacity of each. The grace which makes any man a Christian from the first moment of his coming to believe is the same grace which made this man the Christ from his coming to be as man. The Spirit through whom men are reborn is the Spirit through whom Christ was born. The Spirit by whom we receive forgiveness of sins is the same Spirit who brought it about that Christ knew no sin. Clearly, God knew that he would do all this. The predestination of the saints is the same predestination that reached its greatest glory in the Saint above all other saints. Who can deny this among those who understand correctly the utterances of Truth? For we have been taught that inasmuch as the Son of God became man, the Lord of glory himself was the object of predestination.

 

[kainosktisis]

Here is the rest:

From the Office of Readings for Fri., July 5, 2019 - Pt 2 of 2 (Divine Office):

“Second reading

From a book on the Predestination of the Saints by Saint Augustine, bishop

“Jesus then was predestined. He who was to be the son of David in his human nature was to be the Son of God in power through the action of the Spirit of holiness, for he was born of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary.This unique taking to himself of a human nature by God the Word came about in such a way, too mysterious for our understanding, that with truth and accuracy the Word could be called at one and the same time the Son of God and the son of man: son of man because of the human nature that was taken, and Son of God because it was the only-begotten God who took that human nature. We are not to believe in God as a quaternity but as a trinity.”

Human nature was in this case predestined to so marvelous, so sublime, so perfect a dignity that it could not be raised higher; just as the divine nature itself could not demean itself any lower than by taking human nature with all its weakness, even to dying on a cross. Just as one Christ was predestined to be our head, so we, the many, were predestined to be his members. Let there be no mention here of human merits; they were lost through Adam. Let God’s grace reign supreme, as it does through Jesus Christ, our Lord, the only Son of God, the one Lord. If anyone can find in Christ, our head, any merits preceding his unique birth, he may look also for merits in ourselves preceding our rebirth as his many members.”

 

[kainosktisis]

I was looking through my copy of The Didache Bible , & I found this between pp. 174-175:

“ An Apologetic Explanation of the Original State of Human Beings

What was the condition of human beings before the Fall ?

God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God bless them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” …And it was so. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. (Gn 1:27-28, 30-31)

“Because you have [sinned],… I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; / in pain you shall bring forth children, / yet your desire shall be for your husband, / and he shall rule over you…[C]ursed is the ground because of you; / in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; / thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; / And you shall eat the plants of the field. / In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread / till you return to the ground,/ for out of it you were taken; / you are dust, / and to dust you shall return.” (Gn 3:14, 16-19)

God created our first parents in an original “state of holiness and justice” (cf. Council of Trent [1546]: DS 1511), A state of perfect harmony in nature free of sin, pain, and death. Man, uniquely created in the very image and likeness of God, lost this original state by using the gift of free will to choose evil over good.

God created man, “the only creature on earth which God world for itself” (GS 24), In his own image and likeness, endowed with the ability to know and love him and to choose freely between good and evil. As long as Adam and Eve remained close to God through fidelity to his will, they possessed a joyful relationship with God, with each other, and with the rest of creation. “Sacred Scripture teaches that man…is capable of knowing and loving his creator” (GS 12). This perfect state bestowed on our first parents is called original holiness and justice . (Cf. CCC 355-357, 374-376)

This state enjoyed by Adam and Eve included a number of gifts that were lost due to Original Sin. These preternatural gifts included immunity from sickness, suffering, and death as well as freedom from disordered appetites and passions. Our first parents’ natural inclinations were subject to the control of their minds and wills, and they enjoyed harmony and self mastery inside their hearts. In the state of original holiness and justice, work was not a burden but rather an easy and rewarding activity. It was clearly God’s intention for man and woman to find pleasure and fulfillment in every aspect of their lives; indeed, “his plan was to raise men to a participation of the divine life” (LG 2). (Cf. CCC 376-378, 384)”