How do Mormons view Our Lady?

[invisible_man]

An honest man, especially one who is well-informed on the subject, doesn’t need to think about his answer. He just answers the question that was asked.

Usually, the interviewee is given the questions first so that they can respond with some thought. However, when questions are fired off, it may be difficult to navigate questions. I wouldn’t hold him to the fire for not answering as he should of. No one is perfect. It happens to the best of us.

 

[mrgloop]

I am LDS. I receive the Catholic Answers emails frequently—and have been receiving them since 2010. I am grateful to see members of the Catholic Church tackle difficult, varied, and complex questions.

This post did not allow all my characters, and runs into other posts. Overall, it contains one question, one clarification, an observation and rebuttal, and a thought.

Question #1:
Among Christian religions, the membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (“LDS” or “Mormon”) ranks fourth in the United States, with more than 6 million members. The three specific Christian religions preceding it are Catholic (68M), Southern (16M) Baptist, and United Methodist (7M), respectively.
ncccusa.org/news/110210yearbook2011.html

Of the posts referencing specific named organizations found beneath the "Non-Catholic Religions,"I am intrigued at the volume of threads that target the LDS or “Mormon” religion. Why do so few posts specifically mention the Southern Baptist or United Methodist organizations?

 

[mrgloop]

Clarification:
The posts from those who claim they were once “Mormon” or “LDS” and are now Catholic are quite alarming and quite absurd. Derogatory or inflammatory posts related to how the LDS members view Mary, or how women are treated within the LDS Church, are very much off-base. The posts were likely intentionally written to rabble-rouse, and the objective could have been accomplished (considering this post now has 10 pages of comments).

In regard to Mary, we honor her dearly. I recall an LDS play I went to in Salt Lake City titled, “Savior of the World”, that helped me realize the great burden Mary had as the mother of the Savior. I felt the Spirit of God in that play, as did the actors and most of the audience (and the orchestra in the pit). The LDS people also honor Joseph Smith, and Moses, and Ruth, and Rebekah. I honor my wife, and the role that she has chosen to be a mother to our children and a wife to me, amidst all my weaknesses. One of our past “apostles”, James E. Faust, honored Mother Teresa. What a woman she was, and what incite she had on the plague of abortion!
lds.org/liahona/1995/11/serving-the-lord-and-resisting-the-devil?lang=eng

The adult women of the LDS faith are within the ranks of the “Relief Society”, which is among the largest and oldest organizations of the world. To illustrate what women in that organization do, four of them (within their 20s and 30s) recently delivered to me and my wife, after the death of our child, a solid week of homemade crockpot meals. Think of their ages for a moment…Three of these women already have young children, two were presently pregnant, and the one without any children has a full-time job and is the President of this aforementioned organization (within a geographic boundary).

Isn’t it wonderful to see women within our distinct Churches set themselves apart, and be “lights unto the world?” Furthermore, isn’t it great to see that both your church and mine have literal organizations and structures (or “a house of order”) whereby such Christlike care can be administered?

Observation and Rebuttal:
In the beginning of this post, users attempted to associate the “Mormon view” of Mary—the mother of Christ—with sex. Rather than touch on scriptural resources, approved doctrine, and active, verifiable LDS teachings, someone presents an obscure reference from “The Seer”, published in the 1850s by Orson Pratt. Elder Pratt who WAS NOT an official president of the LDS Church. An apostle, yes…and also a man…as was Thomas.

Shame on those users, because rather than provide Mary the respect she deserves, they follow suit with how society tends to view women. The attempt to convey that Mormons dive immediately into the situations surrounding the conception of the Savior is outright inaccurate. The scriptures in the Bible related to her conception suffice.

There was probably one time in my life I ever thought of this topic, and it was not part of any lesson I had at Church, or within any manual I recall reading. I didn’t dwell on the matter too much because I know that Christ is—and will continue to be, my Savior.

There is no doubt Orson Pratt was a brilliant man for his time. Studying his life—and that of his brother Parley’s—one can see there was certainly something amazing in the water. And, within water, one might also discover impurities. Much of what Orson Pratt had written in the Seer was “struck down” by the Presidency of the Church about 10 years following its publication:

“The Seer [and other writings by Pratt] contain doctrines which we cannot sanction, and which we have felt impressed to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works, or parts of works, are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed.”
archive.org/stream/defenseoffaithsa02robe#page/294/mode/2up/search/and+destroyed

The original publications of The Seer have always been of great intrigue among the LDS community, but are simply not wholly accepted as doctrine.

In the words of B.H. Roberts, following the above cited paragraph, he writes:

“It would be a glorious thing for a man to so live that his life would touch the very life and Spirit of God, so that his spirit would blend with God’s Spirit, under which circumstances there would be no error in his life or in his utterances at all. That is a splendid thing to contemplate, but when you take into account human weaknesses, imperfection, prejudice, passion, ^bias, it is too much to hope for human nature that man will constantly thus walk linked with God. And so we make this distinction between a man speaking sometimes under the influence of prejudice and pre-conceived notions, and the utterances of a man who, in behalf of the Church of God, and having the requisite authority, and holding the requisite position, may, upon occasion, lay aside all prejudice, all pre-conception, and stand ready and anxious to receive the divine impression of God’s Spirit that shall plead, “Father, thy will and thy word be made known now to thy people through the channel thou hast appointed.” There is a wide difference between men coming with the word of God thus obtained, and their ordinary speech every day and on all kinds of occasions.”

 

[mrgloop]

Thought:
It’s very easy to assume and take pot shots at a religious organization one doesn’t belong to. I admit I’ve done it before. It’s even easier to take shots when members of that organization are unavailable to defend themselves or their organization. I could certainly spend my time taking pot shots at the Catholic faith, but I won’t, because I know that I need them, just as much as they need me…and allow me to clarify:

This is a very crucial time in our country. The laws of the land are becoming complex and corrupt, and the religious are beginning to be afflicted by those laws. Both our religions know the unfortunate outcome of such measures. We have seen, and will continue to see, more Christian disbelief within our nation. The numerical religion reports cited earlier provide evidence that the country’s faith in Christ is diminishing. This is cause for concern, and a call to us to be better missionaries of the Lord for the sake of ourselves, our posterity—others where possible—and to salvage the fundamental freedoms of our great nation…Call me crazy, but I want my grandkids to be able to worship freely. Unfortunately, there are many who prefer to be lazy and regimented, which requires us to enlist in the “cosmic battle” [Dennis Prager] of agency (freedom).

 

[TexanKnight]

Usually, the interviewee is given the questions first so that they can respond with some thought. However, when questions are fired off, it may be difficult to navigate questions. I wouldn’t hold him to the fire for not answering as he should of. No one is perfect. It happens to the best of us.

not true…honesty does not have to be considered…

 

[TexanKnight]

I am LDS. I receive the Catholic Answers emails frequently—and have been receiving them since 2010. I am grateful to see members of the Catholic Church tackle difficult, varied, and complex questions.

This post did not allow all my characters, and runs into other posts. Overall, it contains one question, one clarification, an observation and rebuttal, and a thought.

Question #1:
Among Christian religions, the membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (“LDS” or “Mormon”) ranks fourth in the United States, with more than 6 million members. The three specific Christian religions preceding it are Catholic (68M), Southern (16M) Baptist, and United Methodist (7M), respectively.
ncccusa.org/news/110210yearbook2011.html

Of the posts referencing specific named organizations found beneath the "Non-Catholic Religions,"I am intrigued at the volume of threads that target the LDS or “Mormon” religion. Why do so few posts specifically mention the Southern Baptist or United Methodist organizations?

perhaps because the other ones you mentioned are not led by false prophets…and the others did not blatantly call the Catholic Church the “Great and Abominable Church” and have a Catholic Priest depicted as an agent of Satan

 

[TexanKnight]

Thought:
It’s very easy to assume and take pot shots at a religious organization one doesn’t belong to. I admit I’ve done it before. It’s even easier to take shots when members of that organization are unavailable to defend themselves or their organization. I could certainly spend my time taking pot shots at the Catholic faith, but I won’t, because I know that I need them, just as much as they need me…and allow me to clarify:

This is a very crucial time in our country. The laws of the land are becoming complex and corrupt, and the religious are beginning to be afflicted by those laws. Both our religions know the unfortunate outcome of such measures. We have seen, and will continue to see, more Christian disbelief within our nation. The numerical religion reports cited earlier provide evidence that the country’s faith in Christ is diminishing. This is cause for concern, and a call to us to be better missionaries of the Lord for the sake of ourselves, our posterity—others where possible—and to salvage the fundamental freedoms of our great nation…Call me crazy, but I want my grandkids to be able to worship freely. Unfortunately, there are many who prefer to be lazy and regimented, which requires us to enlist in the “cosmic battle” [Dennis Prager] of agency (freedom).

telling the truth about a church led by false prophets is not taking pot shots. And most of the ones posting on these threads are former lds. We know the true teachings that y’all try to hide

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I have not seen any disparaging remarks about the Virgin Mary on LDS sites. I think that they do respect her as the mother of Christ. However, past LDS leaders have speculated just how Jesus was conceived. It is a mystery for sure. I see nothing wrong with speculating.

Think about it, please. It’s the internet, if the LDS don’t have to post the harmful doctrines and views on Mary, they won’t do it.

 

[zaffiroborant]

The adult women of the LDS faith are within the ranks of the “Relief Society”, which is among the largest and oldest organizations of the world.

Could you please provide something to back up this assertion, thanks.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I am LDS. I receive the Catholic Answers emails frequently—and have been receiving them since 2010. I am grateful to see members of the Catholic Church tackle difficult, varied, and complex questions.

This post did not allow all my characters, and runs into other posts. Overall, it contains one question, one clarification, an observation and rebuttal, and a thought.

Question #1:
Among Christian religions, the membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (“LDS” or “Mormon”) ranks fourth in the United States, with more than 6 million members. The three specific Christian religions preceding it are Catholic (68M), Southern (16M) Baptist, and United Methodist (7M), respectively.
ncccusa.org/news/110210yearbook2011.html

Of the posts referencing specific named organizations found beneath the "Non-Catholic Religions,"I am intrigued at the volume of threads that target the LDS or “Mormon” religion. Why do so few posts specifically mention the Southern Baptist or United Methodist organizations?

Probably because Catholics and other traditional Christians in general would have less disagreements and cause for discussion with each other than they would with Mormons and other religions that are substantially different in fundamental ways.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Observation and Rebuttal:
In the beginning of this post, users attempted to associate the “Mormon view” of Mary—the mother of Christ—with sex. Rather than touch on scriptural resources, approved doctrine, and active, verifiable LDS teachings, someone presents an obscure reference from “The Seer”, published in the 1850s by Orson Pratt. Elder Pratt who WAS NOT an official president of the LDS Church. An apostle, yes…and also a man…as was Thomas.

I don’t think it’s limited to just “The Seer”. See here for a few more quotes:

mormonthink.com/QUOTES/birthofjesus.htm
mrm.org/virgin-birth

It doesn’t seem as if Orson Pratt was just making things up. He wasn’t inventing teachings out of his own personal musings. He wasn’t the “official president” of the LDS Church, however, as you say, he was an Apostle, a prophet, seer, and revelator. Clearly he had apostolic teaching authority by virtue of his office. I doubt the New Testament Christians would seek to discount James and John, because they weren’t Peter. Apostles and Prophets are not just men.

It isn’t that users attempted to associate the Mormon view of Mary with sex. It is that various statements by various LDS leaders have seemed to point to such an association (which of course is coupled with the LDS belief that God the Father is an exalted man with a resurrected body of flesh and bones).

Shame on those users, because rather than provide Mary the respect she deserves, they follow suit with how society tends to view women. The attempt to convey that Mormons dive immediately into the situations surrounding the conception of the Savior is outright inaccurate. The scriptures in the Bible related to her conception suffice.

This is a red herring and non sequitur. The users, as Catholics, are certainly not disrespecting Mary. Indeed, Catholics and Orthodox probably respect and venerate the Blessed Mother moreso than any other religion, including the LDS Church. Mary has a very high and important place in Catholicism, as I’m sure you’re aware.

They may “dive immediately” into that situation because it is important in understanding what exactly is meant by the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ, which is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity, isn’t it? When reading various statements by various LDS prophets and apostles, we see that they have expressed views that point to a distinction in that understanding from the traditional Christian viewpoint.

There was probably one time in my life I ever thought of this topic, and it was not part of any lesson I had at Church, or within any manual I recall reading. I didn’t dwell on the matter too much because I know that Christ is—and will continue to be, my Savior.

I agree. I would also say that in my time as a Latter-day Saint, Mary specifically was rarely mentioned at all. There were definitely no talks devoted to Mary as well.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I have not seen any disparaging remarks about the Virgin Mary on LDS sites. I think that they do respect her as the mother of Christ. However, past LDS leaders have speculated just how Jesus was conceived. It is a mystery for sure. I see nothing wrong with speculating.

Even if we entertain your view, it is interesting that LDS theology even allows such speculations as a possibility, whether it’s that the Father, as an exalted man, “naturally” conceived Christ with Mary, or that the Father was once a man and progressed to Godhood, and that there’s an infinite regress of Gods. Such speculations would not find any possibility in Catholic theology.

 

[iepuras]

Clarification:
The adult women of the LDS faith are within the ranks of the “Relief Society”, which is among the largest and oldest organizations of the world. To illustrate what women in that organization do, four of them (within their 20s and 30s) recently delivered to me and my wife, after the death of our child, a solid week of homemade crockpot meals. Think of their ages for a moment…Three of these women already have young children, two were presently pregnant, and the one without any children has a full-time job and is the President of this aforementioned organization (within a geographic boundary).

Isn’t it wonderful to see women within our distinct Churches set themselves apart, and be “lights unto the world?” Furthermore, isn’t it great to see that both your church and mine have literal organizations and structures (or “a house of order”) whereby such Christlike care can be administered?

When I was LDS, I often heard the suits tout that the Relief Society is the “largest women’s organization in the world.” Yes, it is the largest women’s organization in the world that is ultimately controlled by men.

The RS is one of the most disappointing things to me in the church (other than doctrinal issues). The RS used to be a fantastic organization that did much charity work when it was run completely by the ladies. Slowly but surely, the Mormon male priesthood took control fo the RS and once correlation came along, the Relief Society was gutted into a shell of its former self. RS general presidents used to serve until death, similar to the president of the church. Now they are rotated out every 3 years or so. RS is little more than an extra Sunday School class for the ladies.

Yes, the women tend to do a good job with providing meals when there are new babies or deaths. But this is not unique to Mormonism. That’s what communities do for each other. Where are the works of charity that are directed outside the Mormon circle? Maybe they do happen, but I have rarely seen it in my 35 years as a Mormon. My former stake did organize an inter-faith quilting bee, but that was ended a few years ago for no reason. The state RS president cited doing other charitable works, but those works never materialized after 4 years. It was really disappointing.

I would have been proud to be in the RS if the ladies would simply woman up and take control of their organization back. The women are not allowed to do great things on their own when they have to have priesthood permission to do anything and have a priesthood holder at their meetings to supervise and babysit.

 

[invisible_man]

perhaps because the other ones you mentioned are not led by false prophets…and the others did not blatantly call the Catholic Church the “Great and Abominable Church” and have a Catholic Priest depicted as an agent of Satan

However, these churches do disparage the LDS church. I have heard it refer to as a cult for example by other religious leaders. Or they refer to the LDS church as not Christian. According to my research the comment about the Catholic Church was made by Bruce McConkie and it was rejected by the LDS leadership. I suppose that people are entitled to have an opinion. However, I think that the LDS church has cleaned up their act now. Why bring up the past? Everyone can go back in time and find whoppers.

 

[invisible_man]

Even if we entertain your view, it is interesting that LDS theology even allows such speculations as a possibility, whether it’s that the Father, as an exalted man, “naturally” conceived Christ with Mary, or that the Father was once a man and progressed to Godhood, and that there’s an infinite regress of Gods. Such speculations would not find any possibility in Catholic theology.

I think that they are bold in their declarations. I see nothing wrong with that. It shows that they are thinking about such things. I tend to look at the end result. Mormons aren’t so bad. They seem to have their feet on the ground and try to obey what they consider to be the commandments. I don’t think that it matters very much as long as the end result is a person who loves their neighbour etc.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

However, these churches do disparage the LDS church. I have heard it refer to as a cult for example by other religious leaders. Or they refer to the LDS church as not Christian. According to my research the comment about the Catholic Church was made by Bruce McConkie and it was rejected by the LDS leadership. I suppose that people are entitled to have an opinion. However, I think that the LDS church has cleaned up their act now. Why bring up the past? Everyone can go back in time and find whoppers.

Why bring up the past? If the Root is dead, so is the Tree.

To be Christian, You have to believe in ONLY ONE GOD, That God is a
Triune Being (Trinity), That Jesus is God-incarnate, That Jesus paid for
the price of sin on the Cross (not the Garden of Gethsemane), Trust the
Bible as the Word of God (not the Book of Mormon), etc, and the LDS
Church refuses to submit to those requirements.
So Mormonism is not Christian.

 

[mrgloop]

Could you please provide something to back up this assertion, thanks.

I appreciate your desire for sources. I suppose one would have to compare numbers of membership between organizations, but so far as I can tell, not all parties openly disclose the number of their members. This info is certainly going to have to come from the entities themselves, and some might claim the organization’s data could be biased.

It appears Relief Society membership numbers between 5.2 and 6 million women. It was started in 1842, with Emma Smith (the wife of Joseph Smith) as President.
mormonwiki.com/Relief_Society
mormonnewsroom.org/article/relief-society
lds.org/callings/relief-society/relief-society-presidents/emma-hale-smith

The history of when women’s organizations started is easier data. Interestingly, the International Association of Charity, a Catholic charity, numbers 200,000. It was apparently founded in 1619. Their site clarifies that most of their membership are women.
aic-international.org/content.php?m=1&l=en

After a quick Googling of “largest women organizations”, one can find this page.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_women’s_organizations

It appears the YWCA also claims to be the largest and oldest women’s organization, but I don’t believe some facts check out when one compares their history or numbers to those of the Relief Society.

YWCA
ywca.org/site/c.cuIRJ7NTKrLaG/b.7515891/k.C524/History.htm

LDS Relief Society
mormonnewsroom.org/article/relief-society-history
There are additional sources related to the Relief Society at the bottom of the page.

Certainly one can argue what are “fair” requirements for a “Woman’s Organization,” but what is more important are whether the organizations help our communities, and our world. I’m grateful there are so many women’s organizations built up with the end goal of helping God’s children, wherever they may be.

Is there an organization or data that I have overlooked? If so, feel free to provide data pertaining to my assertion.

 

[mrgloop]

Probably because Catholics and other traditional Christians in general would have less disagreements and cause for discussion with each other than they would with Mormons and other religions that are substantially different in fundamental ways.

Since Luther and the Protestant Reformation, at what point did Catholics and “other traditional Christians” sing Kumbaya regarding doctrinal differences?

 

[TexanKnight]

However, these churches do disparage the LDS church. I have heard it refer to as a cult for example by other religious leaders. Or they refer to the LDS church as not Christian. According to my research the comment about the Catholic Church was made by Bruce McConkie and it was rejected by the LDS leadership. I suppose that people are entitled to have an opinion. However, I think that the LDS church has cleaned up their act now. Why bring up the past? Everyone can go back in time and find whoppers.

cleaned up their act? The lds leaders never really denounced what McKonkie wrote…in fact, the made McKonkie an apostle…so much for big disagreements.

Further, for MANY years after that, a Catholic Priest was still depicted as an agent of Satan (a fact you keep avoiding). I stopped attending the lds temple in 1989, but I heard they finally changed that in 1990. Even further, as a missionary in Honduras (97% Catholic) we were told to tell people their Church was wrong and had no authority.

Hmmmmmm

 

[mrgloop]

I was a Mormon. They calll us openly the “GREAT WHORE OF THE EARTH” and openly try to convert us from our Catholic faith.
They speak of her in offensive language and tone, they think we are sick and demented.

Don

You’re generalizing. Let me explain. First off, there are plenty of members of the LDS Church who dare not attempt to convert anyone. There are also members who attempt to convert everyone. You probably see the same in your church.

The Great Whore of the Earth is discussed in great detail in the Book of Mormon. Here’s a nice description, direct from the book:
lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/10.16?lang=eng

Certainly you can throw comments from Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” regarding the definition, but even he himself admitted he spoke with a “limited understanding.”
speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=1570

Certainly there was a time—or times—where Peter wished he had never denied knowing Christ. Review an earlier post where I relayed comments by B.H. Roberts.

You also say we speak of Mary in an “offensive language and tone,” and that we think [Catholics] are “sick and demented.” I’ve never heard that, and I have been actively involved within the LDS Church for over three decades, meaning I have attended 3-hour Sunday Church services well over 1500 times (4,500 hours of religious teaching if you’re doing the math), not to mention other services throughout the week. Let my claim be a testimony to you and all those who read that I, an active member of the LDS Church, do not see your alleged behavior among official LDS doctrine or among its members.