How do Mormons view Our Lady?

[invisible_man]

Indeed, such as the ancient Syrian Fathers, even using the word “immaculate”, as well as Origen referring to her as “immaculate of the immaculate”.

As we have seen, invisible man said that he “may be wrong”, and he is indeed wrong. The word “immaculate” is not a Catholic word originating with Saint Bernadette, an LDS letter written by Harold B. Lee, cited by invisible man himself, even used the phrase “Immaculate Conception” to refer to the birth of Christ (thereby disproving his own statement that no other religion uses the word), and as I had mentioned, “immaculate” is a word that is used many times in the English language, as a simple Google search would demonstrate. Saint Bernadette did not originate the word nor the doctrine, both existed centuries before her, and invisible man will not be able to provide evidence to the contrary.

I was referring to the date…1854 and Saint Bernedette. I don’t think that it had such importance before that date. If so, my mistake. And I do not believe that other religions use the phrase as Catholics do.

 

[invisible_man]

Oh dear. Perhaps you should read the posts more closely (and I had already responded to this earlier).

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary is much more ancient than St. Bernadette. Further, the word “immaculate” is much older than St. Bernadette and the formal defining of the doctrine, and was used by various leaders, saints, etc prior to St. Bernadette. It did not originate with St. Bernadette, and if it did, please cite your evidences. See any basic dictionary for the origin of the word.

I believe that since Saint Bernedette claimed that the Virgin Mother said that she was the Immaculate Conception, it took on much more importance than the phrase had before. If the Virgin Mary described herself this way where before she was silent, I think that the phrase has much more importance with Bernedette.

But to go back on topic, Mormons do see Mary in a positve light. They are not negative toward her.

 

[TexanKnight]

I believe that since Saint Bernedette claimed that the Virgin Mother said that she was the Immaculate Conception, it took on much more importance than the phrase had before. If the Virgin Mary described herself this way where before she was silent, I think that the phrase has much more importance with Bernedette.

But to go back on topic, Mormons do see Mary in a positve light. They are not negative toward her.

Define negative. Saying she was not immaculate and had actual sex with your one-human god, destroying her Virginity is negative…

 

[invisible_man]

Define negative. Saying she was not immaculate and had actual sex with your one-human god, destroying her Virginity is negative…

fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Did_God_have_Sex_with_Mary.pdf

**
January 2, 1969

Bruce Bracken
Logan, Utah 84321

Dear Brother Bracken:

We are very much concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.

You asked about the Immaculate Conception of the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about “sexual intercourse” between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject by Luke 1:34-35:

“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”**

                                           Harold B Lee

new.fairlds.org/authors/misc/did-god-have-sex-with-mary

 

[TexanKnight]

fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Did_God_have_Sex_with_Mary.pdf

**
January 2, 1969

Bruce Bracken
Logan, Utah 84321

Dear Brother Bracken:

We are very much concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.

You asked about the Immaculate Conception of the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about “sexual intercourse” between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject by Luke 1:34-35:

“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”**

                                           Harold B Lee

new.fairlds.org/authors/misc/did-god-have-sex-with-mary

lol…like I said…I have posted where your alleged prophets said otherwise. Thank you for proving your prophets teach false doctrine. You provide better proof your church is false than I ever could

thank you

 

[TexanKnight]

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in
his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the
Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as
the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam
and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."JFS
(JoD 1:50-51, also “Answers”, vol. 5, p. 121).

“The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD–was begotten
of his father, as we were of our fathers.” BY (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).

“We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of
God in the flesh…how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was
begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was
begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS
NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ
is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and
make mystery of it?” (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, ‘Box Elder Times,’ Sep.
22, 1914).

“When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the
world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that Spirit
with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was
begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same being who is the Father of
our spirits, AND THAT IS ALL THE ORGANIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS CHRIST AND
YOU AND ME.” (as quoted from 'Discourses of Brigham Young," 1925 edition, p.
77).

and these are just a few.

go ahead…call your former “prophets” liars…

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

MY ERROR!

**Originally Posted by LivingWaters7 **

AH!
LivingWaters7!!! I just read you Religion as Catholic revert, MY MISTAKE!
I understand now that you weren’t defending LDS leaders ?
My Terrible Bad.

I still stand by the rest of my reply though,
that if LDS leaders like a prophet or apostle
speaks on issues such as Mary, God, or
whatever, we can’t just say they’re opinions
unless there is clear evidence of opinion.
​

 

[Porknpie]

I believe that since Saint Bernedette claimed that the Virgin Mother said that she was the Immaculate Conception, it took on much more importance than the phrase had before. If the Virgin Mary described herself this way where before she was silent, I think that the phrase has much more importance with Bernedette.

“I believe” and “I think” is a common Mormon response. Catholics use faith and reason (logic) to inform intellect so that the human will makes rightly formed decisions.

The Virgin Mary appeared to St. Bernadette saying that she was the Immaculate Conception so that the proof of the appearance could be established. The Priest knew of the Immaculate Conception but St. Bernadette did not, despite Mary’s words. This established to the Priest the credibility of the appearance.

Already in the 3rd century, the Church was referring to her purity without sin.

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

 

[invisible_man]

go ahead…call your former “prophets” liars…

I can only go by what was in that letter from 1969. Obviously it wasn’t taught regardless of what Brigham Young stated. What to do? I think that there is a misunderstanding that everything Brigham Young stated was taught. I think that it wasn’t. The letter that I posted by Harold Lee is probably more to the truth.

I am just searching LDS websites to see if what the fomrer Mormons are stating is true. So far, I haven’t found that to be the case. I am no fan of cherry picking quotations. I would need to see the entire quotation in context. Also, as far as I understand it, Brigham Young’s lectures were recorded by scribes or notetakers. I can not form an opinion of what he said until I see the quotation in context and know just how much was recorded from his lecture.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I can only go by what was in that letter from 1969. Obviously it wasn’t taught regardless of what Brigham Young stated. What to do? I think that there is a misunderstanding that everything Brigham Young stated was taught.** I think that it wasn’t.** The letter that I posted by Harold Lee is probably more to the truth.
.

How do you know?

 

[TexanKnight]

I can only go by what was in that letter from 1969. Obviously it wasn’t taught regardless of what Brigham Young stated. What to do? I think that there is a misunderstanding that everything Brigham Young stated was taught. I think that it wasn’t. The letter that I posted by Harold Lee is probably more to the truth.

I am just searching LDS websites to see if what the fomrer Mormons are stating is true. So far, I haven’t found that to be the case. I am no fan of cherry picking quotations. I would need to see the entire quotation in context. Also, as far as I understand it, Brigham Young’s lectures were recorded by scribes or notetakers. I can not form an opinion of what he said until I see the quotation in context and know just how much was recorded from his lecture.

you have said plenty. You have stated you cannot believe your prophets. That what they teach means nothing. That you can pick and choose,

That is the definition of false god and false church

again…thank you

 

[LivingWaters7]

I believe that since Saint Bernedette claimed that the Virgin Mother said that she was the Immaculate Conception, it took on much more importance than the phrase had before. If the Virgin Mary described herself this way where before she was silent, I think that the phrase has much more importance with Bernedette.

Actual Catholics have already demonstrated your incorrect understanding of the matter. No need to go further.

But to go back on topic, Mormons do see Mary in a positve light. They are not negative toward her.

I’m not sure if you’ve ever actually been a Latter-day Saint. In my time as a practicing Latter-day Saint, Mary was rarely mentioned. She certainly does not receive the veneration found in the most ancient Christian churches. I don’t think anyone is saying that Mormons have a negative view of her per se.

 

[LivingWaters7]

MY ERROR!

AH!
LivingWaters7!!! I just read you Religion as Catholic revert, MY MISTAKE!
I understand now that you weren’t defending LDS leaders ?
My Terrible Bad.

I still stand by the rest of my reply though,
that if LDS leaders like a prophet or apostle
speaks on issues such as Mary, God, or
whatever, we can’t just say they’re opinions
unless there is clear evidence of opinion.
​

Haha it’s cool.

But yes, my point is that how do LDS know when the prophet (all 15 of them) is speaking as a prophet, and when he’s just offering his opinion? Perhaps invisible man knows…

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I can only go by what was in that letter from 1969.

Because the ignorant view of Mormonism is less embarrassing.

Obviously it wasn’t taught **regardless **of what Brigham Young stated. What to do? I think that there is a misunderstanding that everything Brigham Young stated was taught. I think that it wasn’t. The letter that I posted by Harold Lee is probably more to the truth.

But Brigham Young WAS A PROPHET OF THE LDS CHURCH !!!
And just so everybody knows what Young stated, I will give two quotes from Young and you can decide whether there is
any misunderstanding or not. Also, very important, look for any statements declaring whether or not it is just an opinion:

“When the Virgin Mary conceived the child
Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his
own likeness. He was not begotten by the
Holy Ghost.”
(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:50).

Brigham Young added that “The birth of the
Saviour was as natural as are the births of
our children; it was the result of natural ac-
tion. He partook of flesh and blood — was
begotten of his Father, as we were of our
fathers”
(Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

I am just searching LDS websites to see if what the fomrer Mormons are stating is true. So far, I haven’t found that to be the case.

Right, trust the LDS Church to reveal the most incriminating data online. They won’t
do it! Trust what other honest people say about Mormonism, don’t worry, there’s no
great conspiracy against Mormonism, just facts against it.

I am no fan of cherry picking quotations. I would need to see the entire quotation in context. Also, as far as I understand it, Brigham Young’s lectures were recorded by scribes or notetakers. I can not form an opinion of what he said until I see the quotation in context and know just how much was recorded from his lecture.

I suppose that’s fair, but promise to actually check
out the Journal of Discourses, it is a very essential
and authoritative book in Mormonism I think, yes ?

 

[invisible_man]

you have said plenty. You have stated you cannot believe your prophets. That what they teach means nothing. That you can pick and choose,

That is the definition of false god and false church

again…thank you

Whose prophets? I just go to their website and find information. Anyone can do it. I just find it amazing that what is said about Mormons here may not exactly be the truth. It really doesn’t matter. Life goes on. :=)

 

[invisible_man]

Haha it’s cool.

But yes, my point is that how do LDS know when the prophet (all 15 of them) is speaking as a prophet, and when he’s just offering his opinion? Perhaps invisible man knows…

I doubt that LDS prophets and leaders are living in a trance. Most of the time they are just men who live life each day, talking to their kids and grandkids and giving opinions about a range of things, including what color to paint the living room, what cleaner to buy, change a tire, etc. Maybe watch a ball game.

 

[TexanKnight]

Whose prophets? I just go to their website and find information. Anyone can do it. I just find it amazing that what is said about Mormons here may not exactly be the truth. It really doesn’t matter. Life goes on. :=)

lds prophets…and what we say here IS truth…your prophets lie

 

[LivingWaters7]

I doubt that LDS prophets and leaders are living in a trance. Most of the time they are just men who live life each day, talking to their kids and grandkids and giving opinions about a range of things, including what color to paint the living room, what cleaner to buy, change a tire, etc. Maybe watch a ball game.

Again, it would be helpful if you didn’t set up straw man arguments. Please cite where I stated or implied that LDS prophets and leaders are living in a trance.

We aren’t talking about who President Monson thinks will win the Yankees game, or whether Elder Bednar thinks that blue is the best color for a car.

How do you know when a prophet, seer, and revelator is speaking as a prophet, seer, and revelator, and when he is merely offering his opinion?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I doubt that LDS prophets and leaders are living in a trance. Most of the time they are just men who live life each day, talking to their kids and grandkids and giving opinions about a range of things, including what color to paint the living room, what cleaner to buy, change a tire, etc. Maybe watch a ball game.

Hey! I take that “…living in a trance…” thing as a red herring, don’t do that.

The way you just described your prophets applies to just about everyone, which is fine I
guess, but what applies to your modern prophets that does NOT apply to everyone else?

 

[TexanKnight]

lds prophets…and what we say here IS truth…your prophets lie

that did not come out as intended.

What I intended was that according to your current “prophets”, your past “prophets” lie