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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
(Still love that phrase)
“nailing jello to the wall”
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TexanKnight
Guest
so then,you admit, LDS leaders keep changing doctrine and teachings…good for you!
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LivingWaters7
Guest
In my time as a Latter-day Saint, Mary was rarely mentioned or talked about in church settings (Sunday meetings, Institute, firesides, conferences). The Book of Mormon does refer to her as "a precious and chosen vessel (Alma 7:10) and as “A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins” (1 Nephi 11:15). Maybe there are hymns during Christmas time that mention her, I can’t remember. However, this is obviously a very clear difference in the emphasis that Mary receives in the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, and the other ancient Christian churches (and perhaps some Anglicans and Lutherans), and what one finds in the LDS Church (and perhaps most Protestant and Evangelical churches). For Catholics/Orthodox, Mary has a very important role in salvation history, and she is venerated (not worshiped) for that. Her role in these churches clearly finds continuity in ancient Israelite precedent. Mormons may very well acknowledge that she had an important role, however she does not receive any special attention nor veneration in the spiritual lives of the average Latter-day Saint. Similarly, Latter-day Saints believe in the existence of a Heavenly Mother, the eternal spouse of God the Father, however she receives no special attention nor veneration, nothing is known about her except for the fact that she exists, and no prayers are directed to her.
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invisible_man
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I would agree with this statement. However, I don’t think Catholics worship the Virgin Mary but they do venerate the Virgin Mary.
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invisible_man
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I don’t know. I wasn’t around when Brigham Young was around. I have no idea just how Mormons worshipped back then or what they believed. If I put myself back then among the Mormons, living somewhere in Utah, I probably wouldn’t know much about what Brigham Young was saying. News traveled slow. I think that Mormons have been doing what they have been doing in church for a very long time. I also don’t think that every time a Mormon leader speaks, it comes from God. I think that for many they have ideas, they may pray about it, form an opinion and say it. But whether or not it all comes from God, I doubt it.
If I were a Mormon prophet I would be thinking that everyone wanted me to be perfect and when I opened my mough God would speak. I would probably be keeping my mouth closed for most of the time since I wouldn’t be allowed an opinion.
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zaffiroborant
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It may be because there are so many depictions of Mary in Catholicism, but I don’t recall much being said about Mary’s physical appearance. In my experience what is most admired and praised about Mary is her character, her willing response to God’s call not her physical beauty. For me the phrases "a precious and chosen vessel and “A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins” misses the point. The first clearly objectifies her, she is a precious thing and the second reduces her to her physical traits, also a form of objectification. But then Mary can not hold the place of wonder and amazement for LDS that she holds for Christianity because there is no Incarnation in LDS thought. And from reading the proclamation that’s just what women are supposed to do, be mothers and that’s it, so what she did was just a little bit different than what any other mother does no though is given to the idea that Mary was the mother of God.
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Judas_Thaddeus
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So in other words you cannot trust
the words of your Mormon leaders,
not even your Prophet. Wow!
Yeah that tends to be what many of the Mormon Presidents have done.If I were a Mormon prophet I would be thinking that everyone wanted me to be perfect and when I opened my mouth God would speak. I would probably be keeping my mouth closed for most of the time since I wouldn’t be allowed an opinion.
Keeps the LDS Church from being seen as a fraud. If the Prophet says
nothing he can’t be wrong!
BRILLIANT ! :nope:
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vsedriver
Guest
The Immaculate Conception of Mary is an early dogma of the Catholic Church which was formalized around 1854. The entire Christian world believed this up until the reformation. Saint Bernadette never said that the beautiful lady was the Virgin Mary. The priest asked Bernadette to ask the Lady what she was called. It was the Lady who said she was the “Immaculate Conception”. Bernadette, who didn’t understand what the Lady meant, reported back to the priest and he knew exactly what it meant.
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invisible_man
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Marie5890
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Im guessing invisible man watched the movie the Song of Bernadette and figures that the word/phrase “Immaculate Conception” was not something one would hear among lay people…
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Marie5890
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In the movie (the '43 version) when she tells the her priest (or was it the bishop? I dont remember) that the Lady said she was the “Immaculate Conception”. Her priest (bishop) started pressing her on where did she hear that phrase? Did she hear it in class or during catechism etc etc. (again its been a long time since I saw the movie’s depiciton)…By the priest actually pressing her as to where she had heard the phrase if anything does point the the possibility that it was something that was known. The title “Immaculate Conception” though not widely known, was not a novelty either.
If I recall correctly the history one of the things that did lend credibility to her claim is that she said that the Lady said she was the “Immaculate Conception”…and that was a theological phrase title that was not widely used by the laity, but it was known
Anyone who may have a better memory of the history of Lourdes I hope will correct me if I am wrong…
If I recall correctly the history one of the things that did lend credibility to her claim is that she said that the Lady said she was the “Immaculate Conception”…and that was a theological phrase title that was not widely used by the laity, but it was known
Anyone who may have a better memory of the history of Lourdes I hope will correct me if I am wrong…
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LivingWaters7
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In the post you were responding to, I already stated that Catholics and Orthodox venerate Mary.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
No one is claiming that prophets should be perfect, nor is anyone claiming that they shouldn’t be allowed an opinion. It would be helpful to know specifically when a prophet is speaking as a prophet, and when he isn’t. When does Thomas Monson speak as a prophet? In General Conference? If so, can we regard what other prophets (including the rest of the FP and Q12) have said in General Conferences as them “speaking as prophets”? That is the actual issue, and not the straw man of prophets being perfect or sharing their opinions.If I were a Mormon prophet I would be thinking that everyone wanted me to be perfect and when I opened my mough God would speak. I would probably be keeping my mouth closed for most of the time since I wouldn’t be allowed an opinion.
Also, see this for more:
ldsguy2catholic.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/is-the-prophet-a-prophet-two-interesting-articles/
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LivingWaters7
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Oh dear. Perhaps you should read the posts more closely (and I had already responded to this earlier).
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary is much more ancient than St. Bernadette. Further, the word “immaculate” is much older than St. Bernadette and the formal defining of the doctrine, and was used by various leaders, saints, etc prior to St. Bernadette. It did not originate with St. Bernadette, and if it did, please cite your evidences. See any basic dictionary for the origin of the word.
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Porknpie
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We could continue to a create a strawman and say that Joseph Smith even preceded St Bernadette so reject everything that JS said.
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Judas_Thaddeus
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No… men like Joseph Fielding Smith and Brigham Young who were Prophets were very em-
phatic about their statements on Mary, so they meant it. Prove to me otherwise by citing a
prophet saying “Well in MY opinion…” or something like that in relation to the quotes I cited.
What about Orson Pratt and Bruce McConkie? Mormon Apostles? Who are prophets, seers,
and revelators? Such men were also very emphatic concerning Mary. Don’t you give me that
“It’s their own opinion” bull! What they taught they meant.
Yes your prophets must be perfect, at least in their words, and if they want to have a personal opinion, THEY HAVE TO POINT IT OUT! If a so-called opinion becomes Church teaching, NO IFs ANDs or BUTs!
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invisible_man
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I know it is. However, I was going on what was in the New Advent site. I was looking at it from the year 1854, around the time of Saint Bernedette.
newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
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LivingWaters7
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Indeed, such as the ancient Syrian Fathers, even using the word “immaculate”, as well as Origen referring to her as “immaculate of the immaculate”.
As we have seen, invisible man said that he “may be wrong”, and he is indeed wrong. The word “immaculate” is not a Catholic word originating with Saint Bernadette, an LDS letter written by Harold B. Lee, cited by invisible man himself, even used the phrase “Immaculate Conception” to refer to the birth of Christ (thereby disproving his own statement that no other religion uses the word), and as I had mentioned, “immaculate” is a word that is used many times in the English language, as a simple Google search would demonstrate. Saint Bernadette did not originate the word nor the doctrine, both existed centuries before her, and invisible man will not be able to provide evidence to the contrary.
As we have seen, invisible man said that he “may be wrong”, and he is indeed wrong. The word “immaculate” is not a Catholic word originating with Saint Bernadette, an LDS letter written by Harold B. Lee, cited by invisible man himself, even used the phrase “Immaculate Conception” to refer to the birth of Christ (thereby disproving his own statement that no other religion uses the word), and as I had mentioned, “immaculate” is a word that is used many times in the English language, as a simple Google search would demonstrate. Saint Bernadette did not originate the word nor the doctrine, both existed centuries before her, and invisible man will not be able to provide evidence to the contrary.
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invisible_man
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Whose is back peddling? I took its importance from what happened to Saint Bernedette and the date listed on the New Advent site. I believe that Saint Bernedette made the title popular.
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