How do Muslims rationalize the actions of Muhammad?

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Gosh, this thread is so weird.

Seriously, do you even know what you’re talking about?

You don’t “put” things in context–you leave them there. At least, you should. That requires no interpretation or whatever.

Pulling things out of context is the interpretation, and the distortion. Correcting the distortion requires putting things back in context, or as I said originally, leaving them there. Is that so hard to understand?

We aren’t even looking at a passage in the Qur’an, and you’re telling me that I’m putting it in context (as if it doesn’t belong there) and interpreting it somehow which isn’t allowed?

Dude, you’re saying I can’t read what the Qur’an actually says, but you can take something out of the Qur’an to make it say something else?

Maybe the reason you have such trouble debating Muslims is that they don’t fall for this nonsense you call a debate.
 
Maybe the reason you have such trouble debating Muslims is that they don’t fall for this nonsense you call a debate.
What I said was I found it EASY to debate muslims! Sedonaman listed a whole bunch of accusations against mohammad but you still (after requesting the list) did not answer them.
 
What I said was I found it EASY to debate muslims! Sedonaman listed a whole bunch of accusations against mohammad but you still (after requesting the list) did not answer them.
Um, no, I just got back onto the forum and doing other things first. Are you so impatient?
 
What???!!! You said there were accusations against Mohammed, and now you are asking “what accusations”?
It seems I was right, wasn’t I? The very title of the thread says “we are going to attack Muhammad–what do Muslims say?”
OK. To save you the trouble of looking them up, here they are:
Excellent. I was right.
Narcissist
Pedophile
Mass Murderer
Terrorist
Misogynist [meaning he hated women]
Lecher
Cult Leader
Rapist
Torturer
Assassin
Looter
Now this is quite simple. All I have to do is say “No, he wasn’t.” You haven’t provided a shred of evidence, just a list of slander. LOL
 
How would you know that what an Islamic scholar [a human!!!] told you about Islam was true without his having interpreted its texts? How do you establish a belief without interpreting foundational texts? And who does the interpreting? Humans. That’s what scholars do; that is, unless of course your scholars are not really scholars at all but charlatans.
Mock my prophet, then my scholars? Is that the best you’ve got? Scholars actually can interpret the texts–it’s possible that they might make mistakes, but because they have studied they are able to interpret.
Then would you please define “context”?
In future, if you don’t know the meaning of a word, you might consult dictionary.com.
Then what good is it?
Immensely more. Every single word, every single letter, was revealed by God. God’s words–not Muhammad’s.
That means Muslim brother.
No it doesn’t.
It couldn’t possibly mean a non-believer brother, now could it?
It could, and it does.
This is one of the funniest things you have said. 0bama is not a religious authority of any kind. Here is an example of his theology:
His religious background is irrelevant. My point was that he quoted the very same statement I shared with you–so I’d have imagined you would at least be aware of it, and not made such a silly claim that it didn’t exist. It seems I was wrong.
Another thing. A person’s popularity does not determine what he says is true. Can’t you make an argument without using a fallacy?
See above remark.
Your evasiveness indicates you are the one who doesn’t know anything about Mohammed … or you are in denial.
Oh… are you the one who attends classes on the biography of Muhammad every week? No wait, that’s me… yep, I think I do know something about Muhammad. Unlike you, for instance.
 
Really? I would have thought by now it wasn’t possible for anyone to be so obtuse, considering that the Islamic “Golden Rule” was quoted by the most popular person on the planet–Barack Obama.

None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.

An authentic hadith.
Off topic, but when did Barack Obama quote this? (I’m just finding it disturbing that a Christian would quote an Islamic golden rule. BTW, I have no problem with the content of it - just why would he quote an Islamic version as a Christian?)
 
Mock my prophet, then my scholars? Is that the best you’ve got? Scholars actually can interpret the texts–it’s possible that they might make mistakes, but because they have studied they are able to interpret.
So they are able to interpret something “not subject to interpretation”?
In future, if you don’t know the meaning of a word, you might consult dictionary.com.
Apparently you don’t know the meaning of “context”.
Immensely more. Every single word, every single letter, was revealed by God. God’s words–not Muhammad’s.
How do you know that?
No it doesn’t.
How do you know it doesn’t?
It could, and it does.
How do you know? It doesn’t say it.
His religious background is irrelevant. My point was that he quoted the very same statement I shared with you–so I’d have imagined you would at least be aware of it, and not made such a silly claim that it didn’t exist. It seems I was wrong.
If his religious background is irrelevant, why did you cited 0bama as an authority on religion? I posted a quote to illustrate the lack of his knowledge about religion. You couldn’t find the error in his statement.
See above remark.
iep.utm.edu/f/fallacy.htm#Appeal%20to%20the%20People
Oh… are you the one who attends classes on the biography of Muhammad every week? No wait, that’s me… yep, I think I do know something about Muhammad. Unlike you, for instance.
You might also investigate iep.utm.edu/f/fallacy.htm#Appeal%20to%20Authority
 
I find it very strange that Muhammad had such an impeccable character that billions see the opposite…i mean, faithfreedom, a site where people can say anything they want about anyone they want, and i haven’t seen people attack anyone’s character as they attack Muhammad, yet strange enough, Jesus is no subject to such thing why? because an impeccable character is clear to all, but when billions criticize the character of someone he cannot be “the best of creatures” not even an example to humanity.
 
It seems I was right, wasn’t I? The very title of the thread says “we are going to attack Muhammad–what do Muslims say?”
That’s not what it says. It plainly states, “How do Muslims rationalize the actions of Muhammad?

Is that how you study the Qur’an and Muhammad’s life … by misinterpreting what you read?
Now this is quite simple. All I have to do is say “No, he wasn’t.” You haven’t provided a shred of evidence, just a list of slander.
You complained about all the “accusations against Muhammed” and then you asked “What accusations?” illustrating you can’t even keep track of what you yourself are saying.

You didn’t ask for evidence. You asked for only the “accusations” against Mohammed, and I provided them to save you the trouble of having to look them up … as though I was naive enough to think you would offer some evidence to refute the accusations.
 
Now this is quite simple. All I have to do is say “No, he wasn’t.” You haven’t provided a shred of evidence, just a list of slander. LOL
This post will be broken up into a couple of posts since it is so long in order to prove that sister amy hasn’t read her koran, and hadiths. There were also too many of each to prove these points so I only wrote a few of them down.

Here goes:
Narcissist - this article list of traits of a narcissist

amoral/conscienceless
authoritarian
critical of others
cruel
feel entitled
flirtatious or seductive
grandiose
hyper-sensitive to criticism
lack sense of humor
pessimistic
religious
self-contradictory
to list just a few of these traits that mohammed consistently exhibited in the koran and hadiths. some of the explanations will
overlap.

Pedophile - no amount of denial can deny he married a 6 year old and went against her father’s wishes and raped her at 9 years old well before she came to maturity. There have been studies to show that the 7th century Arabia would not have brought a child to maturity earlier but in fact later in life. Countries that have an abundance of food have shown to bring young girls to maturity sooner. and 7th century Arabia is not one of those countries. In fact, it is why mohammed promised rivers of flowing water, an abundance of food - that even trees would move around and serve, and an abundance of wine - because those things were not abundant in Arabia.

Mass Murderer - mohammed’s first victims of this - after he broke a peace treaty/cease fire he had the men, and boys with hair, beheaded while the women and children enslaved. He would attack unarmed caravans and kill the men and enslave the women and children. The looter category falls into this explanation too. He was known to attack cities not known for armies, but for trade and agriculture.

Terrorist - Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
Qur’an:8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”
Qur’an:8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Qur’an:7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.”
Qur’an:33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”
Qur’an:59:2 “It was Allah who drove the [Jewish] People of the Book from their homes and into exile. They refused to believe and imagined that their strongholds would protect them against Allah. But Allah came at them from where they did not suspect, and filled their hearts with terror. Their homes were destroyed. So learn a lesson, O men who have eyes. This is My warning…they shall taste the torment of Fire.”

There are just too many hadiths to list them all concerning his being a terrorist.

Cult Leader - many call islam a cult since it is based on whatever mohammed thought up. And if you look at the definition of a narcissist you will see that they contradict themselves, as mohammed did quite often. When he would say something was from allah he would forget what he previosly said quite often.

Rapist - taking slaves right after he killed their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons - and if the sons or brothers were without hair, he would enslave them.

Lecher - Qur’an 33:51 “You may have whomever you desire; there is no blame.”
Tabari VIII:187 “The [sixty-two-year old] Messenger of Allah married Mulaykah. She was young and beautiful. One of the Prophet’s wives came to her and said, 'Are you not ashamed to marry a man who killed your father during the day he conquered Mecca?” She therefore took refuge from him."
Tabari VIII:110 “When Abu Sufyan learned that the Prophet had taken her, he said, ‘That stallion’s nose is not to be restrained!’”
Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.” Ishaq:281 “When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three.”
Tabari IX:128 “When the Prophet married Aisha she very young and not yet ready for consummation.”
 
Misogynist [meaning he hated women] - Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”
Muslim:B1N142 "‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’
Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”
Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”
Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.”
Tabari VIII:62
Ishaq:496 “Ali [Muhammad’s adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, ‘Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.’”

Torturer - Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides…their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”
Tabari VIII:122
Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, 'Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”
Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”
Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.’”
Ishaq:312 “Umar said to the Apostle, ‘Let me pull out Suhayl’s two front teeth. That way his tongue will stick out and he will never be able to speak against you again.’”
Ishaq:316 “Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive.”

There are more - but I think you get the point of mohamed being a torturer.

- old man and woman still suckling her babyassasinations

Looter - Qur’an 8:1 “They ask you about the benefits of capturing the spoils of war. Tell them: ‘The benefits belong to Allah and to His Messenger.’”
Ishaq:510 “We ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”
Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The captives of Khaybar were divided among the Muslims. Then the Messenger began taking the homes and property that were closest to him.”
Tabari VIII:116
Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some of its people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”
Tabari VIII:130 “The Prophet conquered Khaybar by force after fighting. Khaybar was something that Allah gave as booty to His Messenger. He took one-fifth of it and divided the remainder among the Muslims.”
Qur’an 48:19 “He rewarded them with abundant spoils that they will capture. Allah has promised you much booty that you shall take, and He has made this easy for you.”
Ishaq:592 “The Apostle held a large number of captives. There were 6,000 women and children prisoners. He had captured so many sheep and camels they could not be counted.”
Qur’an 8:1 “They question you about (windfalls taken as) spoils of war. Say: ‘Booty is at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger; they belong to Us and are for Our benefit. So fear Allah, and adjust your way of thinking in this matter. Obey Allah and His Messenger.’”
Qur’an 8:40 “If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know that Allah is your Supporter. And know that one fifth of all the booty you take belongs to Allah, and to the Messenger, and for the near relatives (of the Messenger).”
Qur’an 8:68 “Had it not been for a previous agreement from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that you took as booty.”
Qur’an 8:69 “So enjoy what you took as booty; the spoils are lawful and good.”

that last surah really stuck out - the putting the aura of good on evil because these people were killed and stolen from for no other reason than they didn’t want islam.
 
You don’t “put” things in context–you leave them there. At least, you should. That requires no interpretation or whatever.
I’d still like to know how you determine what a passage says without interpreting it. This is elementary, as illustrated by using a passage out of a first grader’s reading book:
“See Bobby and Jane run.”*

When you read it, you conjure up a picture in your mind of a little boy and girl running. If there is no picture showing them, some might visualize them running together; others might visualize them running separately. That’s interpreting.

So how would you read something as convoluted as the Qur’an without interpreting? [Remember, no pictures are allowed.] Or do you read it just to memorize it?
 
R_Not - regarding your above replies…

I don’t believe you are going to get any answers from your work besides this…

:yawn: from our muslim members. * Just my opinion *

It’s probably the same reason none of the muslim members have responded to paars thread of “Jesus lived to be 120 years old, traveled and died in India and he is buried in Kashmire and his tomb is still there”…

😃

God bless us…
 
Oh… are you the one who attends classes on the biography of Muhammad every week? No wait, that’s me… yep, I think I do know something about Muhammad. Unlike you, for instance.
I’m also curious, would these be unbiased and objective classes on the biography of Muhammad that include ALL of his deeds or is it just an idealized portrait of him that includes rationalizations/justifications/excuses for all of his sins/immoral behavior. (I’m suspecting the latter because I have just learned that in Islam all prophets are considered sinless - there is another thread here regarding that topic if you would care to contribute. 🙂 )
 
R_Not - regarding your above replies…

I don’t believe you are going to get any answers from your work besides this…

:yawn: from our muslim members. * Just my opinion *

It’s probably the same reason none of the muslim members have responded to paars thread of “Jesus lived to be 120 years old, traveled and died in India and he is buried in Kashmire and his tomb is still there”…

😃

God bless us…
Yeah, I know. I just wanted to make sure that these points were justified and provable to our muslim members because they can keep denying it. Now, they can keep denying it - as they will do - but it is all available in their own texts.
 
Quoted:

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing.** Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves.** Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: **‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women **who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”

Muslim:B1N142 **"‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ **
Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said,** ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’” **

Ishaq:584 **“Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.” **
Tabari VIII:62

Ishaq:496 “Ali [Muhammad’s adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, 'Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.’”

Personally I do not like these. Not in my philosophy, not in my book and I am a man. These thinkings degrade women and put them as less than equal than men and less than human beings.

I don’t want to state my conclusion here; Muslims are very angry with comments regarding Mohammad as it is. In obedience to the title of the thread, can Muslims please rationalize these if you think these need to be defended. If not then I take them as they are, as Islamic mentality and teachings on women.

.
 
Quoted:

I don’t want to state my conclusion here; Muslims are very angry with comments regarding Mohammad as it is. In obedience to the title of the thread, can Muslims please rationalize these if you think these need to be defended. If not then I take them as they are, as Islamic mentality and teachings on women.

.
They get more angry over what mohammed did when we point those things out than if we bash allah. Bashing mohammed has brought many a death - it was the reason why mohammed had people assasinated.

It makes me wonder who is more important in islam - mohammed or allah. Or maybe that black rock
they make a special trip to go and worship so it can speak for them at Judgement Day (it has consciousness, you know). They don’t make a special trip to visit mohammed’s tomb.
 
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