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Servant19
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I agree somewhat
Not sure it’s deceptive, but just a sincere attempt to unify a seeming historical contradiction
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Servant19
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They do honour Jesus. Why do you think otherwise?I thought all Muslims honored Jesus?
What Biblical verse shows the Pharisees making calumny against Mary during that time of the crucifixion?
And how is it humble to believe souls are lost?
MJ
John 8:41 speaks of the Pharisees disgusting accusations against Mary
By “lost souls” I’m implying they are misguided, and in some ways deceptive if they are omitting important verses from the Bible.
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JimmyDFG
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So islam will believe whats suitable for them and their agenda.No need to be the exact same recount Martin.
Quran says Jesus did not die, and still lives
Bible says immediately after crucifixion He released the souls.
Same outcome…
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Servant19
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It’s not an agenda Jimmy.
Was Jesus doing something immediately after His crucifixion?
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JimmyDFG
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I already answered this
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MartinJordan
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No. John 8:41 was a response to Jesus telling the Pharisees: in that verse; You are doing the works of your own father." For that they responded in defense of themselves. “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”…'m
8:42 - He said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.
Nothing to do with calmuny on Mary.
Unfortunately This is called pulling verses in isolation.
So why not state misguided in the first place? Lost souls implies something completely different dealing with death.
MJ
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MartinJordan
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Then show the Islamic texts that claim Jesus after Crucifixion released souls. Because the Qur’an says God raised him up. What he do before that?No need to be the exact same recount Martin.
Quran says Jesus did not die, and still lives
Bible says immediately after crucifixion He released the souls.
Same outcome…
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MJ
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Servant19
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My apologies, I must’ve missed it. Can you show me which post contains the answer please?
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Servant19
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calvin.edu/academic/religion/faculty/harlow/Born%20of%20Fornication.pdfNo. John 8:41 was a response to Jesus telling the Pharisees: in that verse; You are doing the works of your own father." For that they responded in defense of themselves. “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”…'m
8:42 - He said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.
Nothing to do with calmuny on Mary.
Unfortunately This is called pulling verses in isolation.
So why not state misguided in the first place? Lost souls implies something completely different dealing with death.
MJ
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Servant19
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Where did I say that in the Quran there was the exact replication of anything the Bible states?Then show the Islamic texts that claim Jesus after Crucifixion released souls. Because the Qur’an says God raised him up. What he do before that?
MJ
The Quran is the Quran. The Bible is the Bible.
The Quran offers the spiritual significance of events which are recounted in the Bible, especially in this case.
If, in the Bible, it states that Jesus immediately after crucifixion went on to release holy souls from Sheol, then the crucifixion becomes a stepping stone to another act which Jesus went on to do.
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MartinJordan
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Which part. Are you a Calvinist?
MJ
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MartinJordan
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Where does it say this in the Quran, the spiritual significance especially in this case recounted in the Bible? Please educated me.
If, in the Bible, it states that Jesus immediately after crucifixion went on to release holy souls from Sheol, then the crucifixion becomes a stepping stone to another act which Jesus went on to do.
a) Show an Islamic text or website claiming the Crucifixion was a stepping stone as you say as acts of Jesus.
b) details of those acts from Islamic texts or website.
MJ
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Servant19
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“So while defending their legitimacy, they are implicitly denying Jesus’ legitimacy. The question, however, is what sort of legitimacy they intend. Are they aiming at Jesus’ spiritual illegitimacy, in effect claiming that, unlike him, they are not apostates? Or are they hinting that he is biologically illegitimate? If so, do we have here an oblique rejection of the claim that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, or at least the implication that there
was something scandalous about the circumstances of his birth.”
No I am not a Calvinist
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MartinJordan
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What happened to the question mark after “birth”? It continues…so have you read the rest of it?“So while defending their legitimacy, they are implicitly denying Jesus’ legitimacy. The question, however, is what sort of legitimacy they intend. Are they aiming at Jesus’ spiritual illegitimacy, in effect claiming that, unlike him, they are not apostates? Or are they hinting that he is biologically illegitimate? If so, do we have here an oblique rejection of the claim that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, or at least the implication that there
was something scandalous about the circumstances of his birth.”
No I am not a Calvinist
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Let me help you, even though i’ve never seen this link before.
Just a sample: "Most immediately, the Jews’ avowal is a claim about themselves, not about Jesus – it is they, not he, who are on the defensive. "
This is what I meant about context when I said : For that they responded in defense of themselves.
MJ
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Servant19
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The point is that there was calumny. It’s not a blatant fabrication.What happened to the question mark after “birth”? It continues…so have you read the rest of it?
Let me help you, even though i’ve never seen this link before.
Just a sample: "Most immediately, the Jews’ avowal is a claim about themselves, not
about Jesus – it is they, not he, who are on the defensive. "
This is what I meant about context.
MJ
Even in your other thread, archaeological evidence was given to you Martin that this calumny existed
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MartinJordan
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Who talked about blatant fabrication? What are you saying?
We’re talking about Pharisees.Even in your other thread, archaeological evidence was given to you Martin that this calumny existed
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Servant19
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It doesn’t say this in the Quran. That’s why Christians and Muslims are at loggerheads over this issue. Because Muslims have interpreted it LITERALLY instead of SPIRITUALLYWhere does it say this in the Quran, the spiritual significance especially in this case recounted in the Bible? Please educated me.
They, too, require Baha’u’llah to come, in order that the meaning of this verse can be divulged fully. The meaning of this verse is also sealed until the Time of the End.
If it said in the Quran that this verse should be interpreted the way Baha’u’llah has implicated (i.e spiritually) then there would not be all this conjecture (as you put it)
Jesus lived before birth and after death, so in reality He never is born or dies…
I can’t show you Martin. This “stepping stone” comment was a deduction through natural reason that I made.
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Servant19
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You are saying its a fabrication, or at least an “empty allegation”…I’m sorry if I have misunderstood.Who talked about blatant fabrication? What are you saying?
We’re talking about Pharisees.
MJ
I may have misunderstood the passage from John 8:41, but it isn’t a wildly bizarre interpretation since many have interpreted it that way, including Calvinists, and whether it was Pharisees or not, the group of calumnists have been proven to exist…
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MartinJordan
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Actually it is nothing to do with being at loggerheads because the Qur’an is not part of the Christian Jesus. Only curiosity of the Qur’an when it tries to link Jesus as a Muslim prophet. Muslims are human beings deserving of dignity but need to be evangelised.It doesn’t say this in the Quran. That’s why Christians and Muslims are at loggerheads over this issue. Because Muslims have interpreted it LITERALLY instead of SPIRITUALLY
They, too, require Baha’u’llah to come, in order that the meaning of this verse can be divulged fully. The meaning of this verse is also sealed until the Time of the End.
If it said in the Quran that this verse should be interpreted the way Baha’u’llah has implicated (i.e spiritually) then there would not be all this conjecture (as you put it)
Jesus lived before birth and after death, so in reality He never is born or dies…
Let me end here about the Qur’an conjecture subject as it is not the point of the thread and why I started it. Besides I came back from Mass and after receiving the Eucharist and prayer, there is nothing more Greater than that.
I was hoping for some exegesis . Oh well.
MJ
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